[quote=“Kadamose”]
You’d seriously have to be severely mentally retarded to even think that the Final Fantasy series is of the same, or greater, caliber than Panzer Dragoon Saga. .[/quote]
No its just his opinion and he?s more than entitled to it Just like you think PDS the best RPG and some might not share that view .
I agree with you onthe soundtrack , Saga’s isnthe best Music score produced in game imo of coruse 
So Sestren is somewhat a god dragon creature of some sort, I do not know much about him. If I would, I need to see Panzer Dragoon 2: Zwei.
Sestren isn’t a dragon, perse’ - it’s merely a computer AI that resembles the form of a dragon.
Also, you can download all of the PDS videos on the website by using this username and password of fileshack:
username: NDgamer
password: gamers
Kadamose is being typically dogmatic in his response there, if you choose to regard “Sestren” and the Towers as strictly parallel to our normal idea of a computer network then yeah that’s about right. However there’s absolutely nothing in the games to say that Sestren isn’t a dragon, or more descriptively perhaps a dragon soul. And while it’s not made explicit (in the English versions at least) that Sestren is a dragon either, the form seen and the exalted status and powerful role dragons claim in this world certainly leaves the idea some merit.
Abadd, my appreciation for the conscientious response, and regrets I didn’t get to it sooner in turn. About Anime, maybe it’s just two things, I mostly pay attention to ‘better’ examples, and indeed it’s the more interesting stuff that will get translated and released outside Japan. But I do also think there’s a bemusing discrepancy in the cultural priorities on details for pop storytelling. An awful lot of Anime comes across like fast-forward, really just leaping from one self-contained moment to the next. But I can see how it might end up more enigmatic in the translation sometimes than the original intention, perhaps?
I find I still have something to try to explain about what I (think) I meant though… for one is to assure you I’m under no illusions about some magical essence that permeates every detail of the scenario for Panzer Dragoon.
While every artistic success is invariably the result of ‘a’ leader guiding it’s direction for any given stage - excepting endeavors that are intended as a pure expression of collective fusion - a major part of my respect and amazement for this series has always included awareness of it’s serendipitous nature. The progression and integrity of the experience, as represented in the three (even four IMO) games we have, could easily be a defining achievement of any maestro, worthy - albeit not in scale as yet - of the same standing as Middle Earth or Star Wars. Which so phenomenally belies it’s origin as '3D Shooting Game" as to make me just beam with wonder. Like the aforementioned franchises many of these alternate realities take on a life of their own, but Panzer Dragoon seems to have been born with a life of it’s own.
I know I don’t represent anything like the majority, but Orta really did reinforce that integrity to me. As someone who can and does find relative shortcomings in every game of the series, Orta really came through for me by both doing things I didn’t expect, like pushing a lot more story than a shooter probably “should”… and then pulling off the things I did expect with discretion and diligence, like ‘good’ level design and amazing animation. And I’m a really really… really critical bastard about videogames. I know what I like, why I like it, why something breaks something that I would otherwise like, why I just can’t like anything about something even though every precedent would suggest I should… and also why something may deserve great respect even though I don’t like it.
So while PDO may not have had the ideal coherence in it’s inspiration and production, the cohesion of the inspiration and design that has gone before it still shines through, to me at least. I’m going to indulge in some shameless condescension myself here, but given how inconsistent with the overall narrative some of the ideas I’ve seen people get very attached to are… I find myself wondering how much of the negativity could be attributed to shattered delusions. But having said that, the fact Orta actually played almost perfectly into my own existing fantasy scenario for a Panzer Dragoon game, probably helped keep my own disappointment to a minimum. :An’jou_SMUG:
So yeah, Abadd, not even just about Orta actually… you might even be surprised at just how singular an experience the Saturn games were. If say, you could temporarily forget everything you knew and play them in sequence, the sum of the parts, falling into place the way they did…
It’s not a matter of individual ideas being art, but that art itself is about the arrangement of individually mundane ideas, right?
[quote=“Kadamose”]
Sestren isn’t a dragon, perse’ - it’s merely a computer AI that resembles the form of a dragon.
Also, you can download all of the PDS videos on the website by using this username and password of fileshack:
username: NDgamer
password: gamers[/quote]
Thank you Kadamose
But I still could not log on Kadamose! Your password is incorrect.
Use my account then:
username: Kadamose
password: pdsaga
Now what do I have to do when I want to download?
Log in, then click on one of the PDS photos you see on the website, and then it will redirect you to fileshack…click on the Download Now button…then you click on the the PUBLIC MIRROR links BELOW the Mercury servers at the top.
Oh ok.
[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]Well Gehn, I don’t see how my point is* provable*, it’s just an opinion about other people’s opinions after all. Especially when you use words like “vivid” since I really can’t know what makes something vivid for you. But if it’s examples you want I’ll give it a try…
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/screenshots/images/pds_girigiri_excavation_site_4_screenshot_03.jpg
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/screenshots/images/pdo_screenshot_57.jpg
From TWotA’s screenshot section, of course the Saga shots are from emulation so they may not accurately reflect your color association. But that brings up another point, I’ve heard people say they thought Saturn had a washed-out look compared to Playstation at the time, and on some TV’s it 's video output was especially subdued.
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/screenshots/images/pdo_screenshot_50.jpg
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/screenshots/images/pds_girigiri_arachnoth_screenshot_03.jpg
The series has always employed some pretty raucous color schemes in places, I think it’s because there’s so much more detail and things start to look semi-realistic in Orta that perhaps some people have trouble resolving the alienness of the vision with a sense of place and believablity? That’s actually one of the more impressive aspects of Orta for me, the balance of vibrancy and subtlety in most areas. On the other hand I think it could have been better served with a more impressionistic approach to the backgrounds, less actual detail and more filtering and shader trickery.
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/screenshots/images/pd_pc_screenshot_04.jpg
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/screenshots/images/pdo_screenshot_52.jpg
And speaking of impressionism, I really think that’s what the Saturn games had going for them most of all, everything was reduced to the most basic necessities of communication, primary form and color. It left more room for the player to fill in the details with their own imagination and see what they wanted it to be. But what really set the games apart after that was the subtle and organic animation, something Orta retains in full.
I really can’t relate to complaints about the dragon designs at all, it is of course purely preference anyway. I don’t see how anyone thinks Orta’s designs are anymore different than any of the other games are from each other. Base Wing has more obvious similarity to the Blue Dragon and the starting form of Saga than they do to any of the Zwei forms. It’s got claws just like concept art for the Blue Dragon… the Saga dragon has hooves actually. But all 4 games have an equally unique style in that respect.
In fact it seems to me that Saga’s dragons are the most alien to the whole series. Heavy Wing is definitely one of the strangest in later forms, but Glide Wing has much in common with other pure-type designs throughout the series and some features that are very reminiscent of Atolm. I have a memory of someone taking exception to the claws on the wings of Base Wing and even that has precedent in some of the Saga forms, I don’t have any images of the forms though.
Ahh well, I know you hate long posts Gehn but you did “dare” me so you don’t get to complain about it… 
I obviously have my own nitpicks about Orta but it in no way breaks the series as a game or as art to me. And it’s still my pick for the most impressive and beautiful game on XBOX, which is saying something.[/quote]
Sorry for not replying sooner but regardless of the length of your post I’m sure it just slipped my mind
Anyways you really got me there with the screenshots but…
I think it’s because there’s so much more detail and things start to look semi-realistic in Orta that perhaps some people have trouble resolving the alienness of the vision with a sense of place and believablity?
…in the end I agree with you there ^.Or maybe that’s the easiest way to justify myself.
This reminds me of Tomb Raider Anniversary which is a reimagining of the original Tomb Raider.The developers said that at first they had faithfully recreated the original as far as size and proportion was concerned but they found the envrionments felt really really small.
I mean if you replay TR1 today you’ll find that that big waterfall in the Lost Valley isn’t really that big.And here is where I make part of my point.People just preserve this sort of false memory in their head of a game with huge scenarios.
11 years ago it did felt like a game with HUGE levels.But it really wasn’t that big.People just remember it so.
(on a side note Crystal Dynamics eventually re-recreated the scenarios in a much larger size.)
So what I mean is that my quarrel with Orta’s color scheme might be in part because of my memories are playing tricks on me.
But my use of the word “vivid” wasn’t so much about the use of purples and pinks or bright greens.It was more about the way they were used.Orta was more organic and was more full of life in a more literal sense.Altered Genos is probably my last favourite of all levels because of this.
There were alot more mutated types in Orta the design of which (is that correct?"the design of which) I’m not very fond of.The were present in greater numbers and in a more vimbrant faction/color scheme.
Also there is a colour I often associate with PD that I don’t remember ever seeing in Orta (okay to a minor extent it HAD to be there;in the trees at least) which is Brown.
Maybe I dind’t explain myself clearly enough but in the end it’s about perception and taste something which you don’t get to control.
About the dragon designs, it’s not something that I completely abhor but I do think they are very unoriginal most of the time.Complicated for the sake of beeing complicated.Past dragon designs were slick and more uniform.
Well there you go.A kinda lengthy reply
Gehn, just a reminder it was you that “dared” me to “prove” my own opinion. I’m not out to control your (or anyone else’s) perception or taste, I’ve made that clear many times. But I am obviously protective of PDO when it comes to actual arguments for it being a failure or betrayal of the series. If people get tired of my bullshit… well they could always choose to stop presenting their opinions argumentatively, right?
To echo what I already said early in this topic, what actually gets me feeling personal about it is the same unforgiving nitpicks over and over. Things like the Emperor Statue, the Dragonmares and the ‘wrong’ looking float engines have become bizarre scapegoats for justifying trashing the whole game. And I honestly think it may have been effectively impossible to please some people with next-gen graphics.
Do I have my own ideas about how the game could have looked even more panzerish according to my own personal taste? OH YES…
But again, the moment I even heard about the game I felt trepidation. I have always been aware of the symbiosis between the visual style of Panzer Dragoon and the idiosyncrasies of the Saturn hardware. I even got into stupid arguments with a friend about it, trying to explain why I had to be fatalistic in my expectations. So perhaps I reset the bar for myself in doing that, gave myself a better chance to accept the game for what it actually is, rather than what it arbitrarily isn’t.
Gehn, just a reminder it was you that “dared” me to “prove” my own opinion. I’m not out to control your (or anyone else’s) perception or taste, I’ve made that clear many times. But I am obviously protective of PDO when it comes to actual arguments for it being a failure or betrayal of the series. If people get tired of my bullshit… well they could always choose to stop presenting their opinions argumentatively, right?
Hey I dare people all the time.Part of it is rethrorical 
But anyways obviously I could never really explain why a certain thing is Panzerish or not.But I can explain why it is Panzerish in my eyes.And that doesn’t make it bull.
Because odds are if we (fans) ever came to an agreement about what is Panzerish and what is not, then someone like Abadd would show up and say “Actually from what I can tell from my conversations with former elements of Team Andromeda they don’t have a set of rules for the PD world so …etc”.
Bottom line : yes it’s subjective.But only because other people have their own idea of what is Panzerish
As far as those scapegoats you mention are concerned I think in the end their contribute can’t be denied because , well, a huge part of PD is artistic style and the originality(don’t start Abadd)/coolness of it.
So a PD game with ruined concept art will more than likely be an unpleseant experience to some degree since art design is very important in the series(and here I think I speak for most people).
Well, as LordCraymen said, true brilliance can only be found within limitation - even Saori Kobayashi has said that the Azel soundtrack was only possible due to the limitations of the yamaha soundchip on the Saturn and that it was really hard doing the PDO soundtrack because she didn’t know what her limits were. With this fact in mind, PDO came out during a time when the Xbox was relatively new and the hardware was nowhere near fully utilized - perhaps when we do see another Panzer Dragoon, it will be on hardware that is fully understood to the point that the developers consider it ‘limited’ in some way - perhaps then, we will see another Panzer Dragoon that is truly worthy of the name.
Panzer Dragoon Orta is worth of the title. I don’t see why people had such problems with it. Perhaps people don’t understand the word “different” and continue to loved the old, abandon things. Orta deserves the title as worthy because it tries to revive the series after 5-6 years of breakdown of Saga.
Like they say, people have different eyes.
But again just because you didn’t like the music doesn’t mean we all do . To me Orta Soundtrack was the 3rd best inthe series and Ancient weapon one of the most memorable tunes I?ve ever had the pleasure to hear. Some times a team will like to take a game in diff direction even if the same personal are working on it .
The exact same team made Streets Of Rage III as worked on Part II, yet everyone seems to like part II the better , and most hate the music compared SOR II, even though it was the exact same music chip and the same composer (and he even had more memory) and they weren?t many better than Yuzo Yuzo Koshiro at knowing the limts of the Mega Drive sound chip
Which Ancient Weapon version are you refering to? Ancient Weapon 1 or Ancient Weapon 2? Ancient Weapon 1 sounds like generic fodder if you ask me and gets really old fast - Ancient Weapon 2, on the other hand, sounds very Panzerish, especially around 1:22 - 2:02 - but that’s to be expected, considering Saori Kobayashi composed Ancient Weapon 2, and not Ancient Weapon 1, which was done by Yutake Minobe of Skies of Arcadia fame.
As far as taking the game into a different direction…shame on them. The PD universe has always been about a dying world and the Towers; in fact, that’s all the entire trilogy focused on. The fact that they switched gears and took the game in the direction they did, is a total betrayal to the series. So what if they got the gameplay mechanics correct - Panzer Dragoon, ever since Saga, has been about story and atmosphere - and Orta failed miserably in this department.
Everything Kobayashi wrote for the Orta soundtrack was amazing. I tend to agree with Kadamose, though, that Minobe’s tracks are pretty generic, although I do love The Fallen Ground quite a bit.
SEGA needs to summon her back from Dimension X (where I can only assume she’s been in hiding for the past four years), and have her do another soundtrack. She’s my favorite female video game composer.
“ever since” ?
Let’s just put it this way, if Saga didn’t exist, Orta would have been an ok game for the series, with the exception of the artwork. But since we’ve all experienced Saga, Orta is a major letdown on all levels. Period.
