Why did Lagi die?

Panzer Dragoon
61

That might be the most objectionable term I’ve ever seen used against PDO… generic? In production it may not be quite as “handmade” as Zwei, nowhere near as “singular” an overall experience as Azel… but it’s completely distinct from any other games, and to prove the point it’s so different from the other Panzer Dragoon games you call it the “bastard” of the series.

The Saturn trilogy is a bible for some people, and such is the allure and comfort of dogma, when something is set in stone and can never betray, never evolve…

62

I bet to differ .

How can you call ORTA generic ? For a shooter the story was deep and things like the boss weak spots (how you had to seed up and slow down to hit them) and the real time morphing have never been done before in a 3D shooter (well I’ve never seen it) .

What ORTA is for me is hands down the best shooter this gen, one of the best looking game made this gen , a shooter with the most depth and worthy of Carrying the Panzer name , my only complaint is the rather cheap and short ninth level

63

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]
The Saturn trilogy is a bible for some people, and such is the allure and comfort of dogma, when something is set in stone and can never betray, never evolve…[/quote]

That’s contradicting, don’t you think? The fact that the series was originally a rail-shooter which moved on to become an RPG is a form of evolution, is it not?

Would you not be upset if the beautiful butterfly suddenly decided it didn’t want to be a butterfly anymore, and reverted back into an ugly caterpillar? I, personally, was devastated.

64

As I said in the above post, PDS was an evolution of the series. The rail-shooters may haver been what the series originally started out as, but it doesn’t mean that it has to stay there. The Rail-shooter were great, BUT, as far as story and depth go, it was like looking at a world in tunnel-vision. PDS corrected that.

[quote]
How can you call ORTA generic ? For a shooter the story was deep and things like the boss weak spots (how you had to seed up and slow down to hit them) and the real time morphing have never been done before in a 3D shooter (well I’ve never seen it) .

What ORTA is for me is hands down the best shooter this gen, one of the best looking game made this gen , a shooter with the most depth and worthy of Carrying the Panzer name , my only complaint is the rather cheap and short ninth level[/quote]

It just didn’t feel right. The gameplay was superb, but the artwork and story needed some major refinement.

65

Oh it does to me, but thats also down to 2D and 3D Shooters being my fav genre . But look @ this way I rather see VF series conitune as a VS Fighter and not a RPG , and the same goes for HALO I want that to stay a FPS and not become a RTS game.
I love spin offs and they can add so much more story wise, but when it comes down to it Panzer to me a 3D shooter, just like HALO is a FPS. When I see sequels to those game I expect and want them to follow the tradition of the series .

I just don’t get how you can knock the graphics when it remians one of the best looking X-Box games some 3 years on since it 1st came out . Sure some of the dragon desgins wasn’t to everyone taste , but than that the game still looks bloody stunning. Graphics were always going to be diff from the Saturn versions just down to hardware more than anything else and the Team not being held back by Hardware.

As for the story, I had no troubles with it, and for a 3D Shooter is was more than deep enough.

66

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]

Oh it does to me, but thats also down to 2D and 3D Shooters being my fav genre . But look @ this way I rather see VF series conitune as a VS Fighter and not a RPG , and the same goes for HALO I want that to stay a FPS and not become a RTS game.
I love spin offs and they can add so much more story wise, but when it comes down to it Panzer to me a 3D shooter, just like HALO is a FPS. When I see sequels to those game I expect and want them to follow the tradition of the series . [/quote]

I don’t think you understand, TA. The Panzer Dragoon universe is much too rich and diverse to be explained and experienced in a simple rail-shooter - Team Andromeda knew this, which is why we all got to experience the brilliance of PDS to begin with. Now, if a developer like Irem decided to turn their R-type franchise into an RPG, that wouldn’t work very well – mainly because there’s very little to work with in the first place, and thus, in this case, the R-type series should remain a shooter and not anything else. Panzer Dragoon, on the other hand, not only received it’s own language, but also an entire world that was meant to be explored from top to bottom. Such an experience can’t be achieved by a simple rail shooter – and, like I said, this is why Team Andromeda decided to flesh out the series with an RPG that no one thought possible – and for that, I shall always remain grateful, because, to this day, it is still the best game I have ever played in my life — and I’ve played them all.

67

I understand alright, but at the games core the series is a Shooter and there’s no getting away from that. Yes the Universe is so rich and vast it has plenty of score for RPG?s ECT, and yes I?m too am grateful for SAGA and giving us fans more or a insight to the Panzer world (2nd best RPG I?ve played ). But to me when I think of Panzer Dragoon I think of shooters .

And that to me is whats the series is all about, the best 3D shooter presented for our pleasure. I love to see a ORTA II more than I would like to see a SAGA II, but that could be just me.

68

For the record I never want to see a Saga 2. It is a true singularity, something that stands out for it’s time, but if they ever tried to make a straight sequel the pressure to directly emulate many details of the original could only destroy it I believe. As I know some others agree a new PD adventure should go the Zelda-ish action/RPG direction.

I’d also be happy with another shooter if it was as good as Orta.

And Kadamose, you’re actually contradicting yourself now. You responded that Saga was an evolution as an RPG, but then you make it clear your problem with Orta is not that it’s not an RPG, since you said the gameplay was superb. So even if it had been an RPG with that artwork and base story you still would have hated it, meaning the genre has nothing to do with the evolution in question…

If you don’t like Orta that’s understandable, the simple fact is you can’t win 'em all and I can feel real empathy for your state as a betrayed fan. I just can’t sympathize when you start using words like generic to condemn one of the most technically brilliant, artistically distinct, and genre defining games of the generation. That bespeaks a dogmatic mindset about it, a requirement for some ethereal perfection of quality that no mortal efforts could ever measure up to.

69

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]For the record I never want to see a Saga 2. It is a true singularity, something that stands out for it’s time, but if they ever tried to make a straight sequel the pressure to directly emulate many details of the original could only destroy it I believe. As I know some others agree a new PD adventure should go the Zelda-ish action/RPG direction.

I’d also be happy with another shooter if it was as good as Orta.

And Kadamose, you’re actually contradicting yourself now. You responded that Saga was an evolution as an RPG, but then you make it clear your problem with Orta is not that it’s not an RPG, since you said the gameplay was superb. So even if it had been an RPG with that artwork and base story you still would have hated it, meaning the genre has nothing to do with the evolution in question…

If you don’t like Orta that’s understandable, the simple fact is you can’t win 'em all and I can feel real empathy for your state as a betrayed fan. I just can’t sympathize when you start using words like generic to condemn one of the most technically brilliant, artistically distinct, and genre defining games of the generation. That bespeaks a dogmatic mindset about it, a requirement for some ethereal perfection of quality that no mortal efforts could ever measure up to.[/quote]

I’m not contradicting myself, at all - the reason why I said the gameplay was superb, is because it borrowed alot from Saga. The main two bitches I have with Orta, is the fact that the story is rather shallow (hence the ugly caterpillar comment) and the art designs had been drastically altered to the point that absolutely nothing was even remotely recognizeable.

Now, I realize that Orta was merely a rail-shooter and that a story of the same caliber of PDS was impossible. However, the little bit of story that was there was ridiculously stupid, and in no way correlates chronologically with the rest of the series. It’s a puzzle piece that doesn’t fit in with the rest of the puzzle. You don’t just go from a brilliant storyline like PDS, to a half-assed story like Orta – you just don’t do it. If this were a series of novels, Orta would have been the final nail in the coffin, and the author would need a career change. It’s that bad.

The encyclopedia, however, was well done - unfortunately, that doesn’t count.

70

How doesn’t it fit in chronologically with the rest of the series? I thought that Smilebit did a good job of making Orta’s story work when the ending of Panzer Dragoon Saga had a very “final” feeling to it.

71

You guys are like Saga freaks(Or lovers I must say)

I play Saga before and it was my 3rd favorite RPG (2nd was Kingdom Hearts and 1st was Final Fantasy 7)

Like I said,Saga shows more of the PD world by making a RPG. I dunno why this such debate againest Orta existed.

I highly respected both Saga and Orta as best PD games,but when it comes to someone who saids the word,BASTARD to any of these 2 games,I take it seriously.

Orta deserves the same respect as Saga. It even has its very own main theme, “Anu Orta Veniya”.

Smilebit is trying to make Orta as good as Saga.I dont know about you guys but I think Orta is the best,true Panzer Dagoon out there.

I would love to see ORTA II but the name will be different.

72

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]

with the rest of the series. It’s a puzzle piece that doesn’t fit in with the rest of the puzzle.

How doesn’t it fit in chronologically with the rest of the series? I thought that Smilebit did a good job of making Orta’s story work when the ending of Panzer Dragoon Saga had a very “final” feeling to it.[/quote]

It’s out of place…not only do you not know the events before the birth of Orta, but you also do not know how Abadd was freed along with many other subtle details. PDO could have been a really good game but, unfortunately, it was implemented wrong.

If it were me designing the game, I would have shown the audience what took place during the Ancient Age – but that’s just me. As you said, Saga seemed finished, and a prequel of this magnitude would have been a really great idea, especially since it would serve to answer more questions.

73

We’re not shown what happens between each of the Saturn games either.
In Panzer Dragoon we never learn who the Sky Rider was.
The ending of Panzer Dragoon Zwei is still widely debated.

Due to the nature of Panzer Dragoon Orta being a reasonably short game there isn’t time to explain every little detail… the same as with the first game, and Zwei. There were a lot of mysteries in those games too, but IMO it doesn’t make those stories any worse… if anything, those mysteries help make the story more interesting.

Actually, that would be a story I would like to see told in a future Panzer game (if there is one), but at the same time it would risk upsetting some fans who would prefer for that part of the timeline to remain a mystery. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done, it would be a risk and one that might not pay off if the Ancient Age didn’t match up with the vision that people have already built up in their minds. With that in mind, it’s understandable why the developers chose to create a sequel instead of a prequel.

74

This echoes what Solo already said, but it’s becoming clear just how out of phase my sensibility about Panzer Dragoon is from yours Kadamose. Being dropped into this world with minimal setup and many many unexplained circumstances is one of the most compelling hallmarks of this series. For you to pick that as a relative fault of PDO is very mystifying. Again I’m left with a clear impression that you had a very strict personalized take on how everything in this world should be, and there was simply no room for what Orta introduced.

If nothing was even remotely recognizable to you in PDO… well that sounds truly painful actually. I can only suggest you accept that your Panzer Dragoon exists in a different universe now, and exists only for you.

To switch sides here…

Light Wing, you little punk, how dare you use that name if you think Saga rates lower than FF7?!? Those games are like Elvis and the Beatles (as explained by Quentin Tarantino) … you’re either an FF7 person or you’re a Panzer Dragoon Saga person, you can like them both, but you cannot like them both the same. So you have just admitted that you’ll never actually get it so don’t bother trying to argue anymore in terms of Saga vs Orta. Azel was something very very special, and now that I know what you meant by one of your first comments about it being not like FF I can tell you that you could simply never know why.

75

Don’t get me wrong, guys. The mysteries are great - not only does it inspire deep, intellectual thought, it makes you yearn to understand what’s really going on. PDS was perfectly balanced, in that it answers alot of questions, while at the same time, creating many new questions. If any of you have ever written a novel, you would know this is how to truly tell a story which literally provokes the imagination.

PDO didn’t really offer anything, other than give a glimpse of what happened after the Great Fall. And this is its greatest fault.

76

That’s an absurd correlation, you are attached to Azel because it wrapped up the story begun by the first games, what Orta offers is a new cycle of mysteries and questions. You are finding it lacking based on a direct comparison to a game in a genre with completely different design priorities, a game with a singular opportunity to exploit the tease of it’s prequels, the close of the story closing an era, or more like an epoch in this world’s history. Comparing it to the other games of the same genre, and that begin that first story, Orta’s story is an embarrassment of riches.

In some respects Orta has offered more to discuss than any other game. Consider that so much of what Azel actually offers is from books and data records, many of which are optional and have virtually no impact on the experience of the immediate story. The Encyclopedia in PDO is totally equivalent in that respect, it is as much a part of the story as most of the documents in Azel from which we learned of the events between the other games are. But even aside from those new pieces from the old puzzles, what Orta offers is a new beginning, the new tease…

It pains me to see this game being criticized for a lack of story in comparison to Azel, when the balance between story and narrative restraint is one of the most impressive feats in PDO to me. The amount of narrative that’s there is a concession to the existence of Azel in the first place, it was something of a risk to have so much story time in a game that is essentially an arcade style experience. The fact they told the story so verbosely without (to me) ever losing the spirit of the old-school shooter is a real marvel of game craft.

77

[quote]We’re not shown what happens between each of the Saturn games either.
In Panzer Dragoon we never learn who the Sky Rider was.
The ending of Panzer Dragoon Zwei is still widely debated.

Due to the nature of Panzer Dragoon Orta being a reasonably short game there isn’t time to explain every little detail… the same as with the first game, and Zwei. There were a lot of mysteries in those games too, but IMO it doesn’t make those stories any worse… if anything, those mysteries help make the story more interesting. [/quote]

I couldn’t agree more, thats whats so great about the Panzer world and every Panzer game, It answers just as many questions as it leaves un-answered. In so many ways the SAGA ending was perfect as it is , and maybe it would have been best to leave the series end the way it looks it was meant to and for me with the best ending to any game ever . ORTA for me was never meant to carry on from SAGA, the fact that it was a women Dragon rider to me marked the change of direction how this was going to be a part in the time line , If anything ORTA makes a SAGA II now more possible with team being able to use the Panzer universe as it is in ORTA time line .

What ever the case, I only want a new Panzer game if the Team want to make it , not because they have to make it .

BTW I too can’t wortk out the ending for Zwei :anjou_embarassed: ,

78

I agree with Team Andromeda. You cant just demand them to make another PD game.

This is the Team to decide to make another PD, Railshooter or RPG.

79

I agree. I hope they do though as I just got into playing Panzer Dragoon Orta and played the original Panzer Dragoon game on Orta after beating it. I loved the game and Indeed I reckon the dragon died of exhaustion.

Remember after killing the Alpha Dragonmares on Episode 9 (The Dragonmare squadron recap) I remember in the cutscene Lagi, the dragon start roaring and looking down, he to me looked like he was tiring out and was in stress, this was right before the dragonmares are absorbed into the Cradle. Indeed, the dragon was growing as he was in the other games and had to give in in the end. But left behind it an heir to take over, so this means that whenever the dragon dies, it will always have another to take its place as the next guardian.

And of course Lagi had lived for thousands of years and in Orta, it was thousands of years after the empire was destroyed. I still hope to play the other Panzer Dragoon games sometime, played the first game but still need to play Zwei and Saga.

I loved the game as it was an exotic world kinda like Final Fantasy and I always have wanted to play games where you control a dragon and see the world in the dragon’s eyes.

Indeed I think the next game could have Orta back in it. But the dragon of course older and maybe back as a Blue Dragon. As usually the dragon would leave its rider behind. But this time stayed with Orta. So who knows?

80

I thinks PDO is set about 30 years after PDS…
And how has lagi lived more than hundered years when his mortal part was born as a coolia about 50 to 70 years before?