PDO sales

Panzer Dragoon
41

[quote=“Abadd”]I have. I’ve played through one of the Tokimeki games, as well a couple of the Sakura Taisen games (1 and 3 to be exact).

It’s all fluff. All the female characters are two dimensional charicatures of what real women are like, the gameplay consists of multiple choice questions (with the exception of Sakura, which varies it up a little with some decent tactics battles), and the writing is exactly the same as any of the dime-a-dozen “kawaii” anime out there.

If you’re going to talk about story, then at least mention something with a little more depth. Movies? Try Lost in Translation, Spirited Away, the Ring, Akira, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, etc. Or hell, if you want something with more popcorn fluff, then at least talk about ones that do something interesting with it: Pulp Fiction, Resevoir Dogs, Clerks, Conan the Barbarian, etc.

Books? Try Ender’s Game, the LOTR trilogy… or if you want to get away from “geeky” stuff, then try Kokoro, Catch 22, Siddhartha, etc.[/quote]

Been there, done that. I’ve personally hate Hollywood films…talk about dumbed-down garbage…and the recycling of the same old actors over and over is really annoying. I can’t wait for CG to become so lifelike, that it replaces humans in films altogether. No more bad acting and no more conceit - wouldn’t that be something?

I also watch alot of Japanese Anime - I’ve seen basically every anime since 1995. That’s alot of anime…sad thing is, only about 20% of them were worth watching. Probably the best anime I’ve ever seen is El HAzard: Magnificent World - it started great, and ended perfectly.

As far as books go, there really isn’t anything good to read anymore…I’ve read all of Orson Scott Card’s material, as well as Robert Jordan and several other authors. I think the best books I’ve ever read were ‘Engines of Creation’ and ‘Nanosystems’ by Eric Drexler - and those are non-fiction.

42

You think all of Hollywood films are “dumbed down garbage,” yet you proclaim that dating sims have good stories? Sure, most Hollywood is mindless garbage, but you cannot deny the sublime character study that Lost in Translation is (arguably, an independent film), the twisted look into the urban myth that The Ring represents, or the visual/audial masterpiece that is Moulin Rouge. Or, how about the fantastic twist of our over-obsession with religion and our desire to deconstruct it that is “Seven”? How about the deconstruction of modern patriarchal society shown in “Fight Club”?

And if Hollywood is not your thing, how about Japanese film? Try the dark and twisted look at a man’s quest for redemption in “The Eel.” Or the disturbingly realistic portrayal of the artifices of social structures that children create within schools as a direct result of the pressures put on them by adults, as shown in “Battle Royale.” Or the serene, almost zen-like journey of a man in a journey of pure sacrifice and love, and violence in “Hanabi.”

And CG? Come on. There’s still someone behind the CG doing the voice. Someone providing the emotion and the spirit. Half of the movies I mentioned above don’t even star actors that the majority of people know about.

Anime? Try the character study of “Cowboy Bebop,” the Alice-in-Wonderland story retold in “Spirited Away,” the journey of a child’s imagination in “Totoro,” the commentary on over-reaching science and destruction in “Akira,” etc.

You can’t deny the quality of the message that each of these movies portrays (whether or not you particularly like those messages is a completely different story all together).

Books? Try something not related to science or science fiction. Of course there are no good books left, because I know you’ve read all of them, right? [/sarcasm]

Seriously, combining your comments on movies/books with your love of dating sim games, I can only assume that you don’t like anything involving real people. If you hate everything, then why bother? Why not just give up on all storytelling mediums and just not care?

43

I also find it hard to believe that you’re being serious. So you’re saying that novels are bad becasue they invite you to think for yourself? That using your mind a bit instead of being dripfed the mindless, easily digestible unoriginal crap that passes for 99.9% of videogame storylines is a bad thing? If thinking for myself a little is the high price of a good story, I’d rather use my mind.

Why?

Why is interpretation a “bad thing”? Why is thinking for yourself a “bad thing”? What makes considering something in a different way from from other people a “bad thing”?

You’d prefer it if we were all exactly the same? That’s the only way anyone is ever going to interpret something in exactly the same way, because differences in interpretation arise from the simple fact that we’re all different people.

And although it’s barely relevant: what makes you think that a game - or anything else - can ever portray its creator’s “vision” so much more accurately than a novel? Modern games are made by up to hundreds of people. Do you honestly think they all thought exactly the same way about how the game should turn out? Do you think that the guy who rendered the face of the main character got it exactly pixel for pixel perfect compared to the blurry image the storywriter had in his mind? Of course he didn’t, and such a translation is impossible because the human mind isn’t made up of pixels.

It doesn’t matter how technologically advanced virtual reality gets. An author will never get their vision perfectly into a game or a film or a novel or anything because the ideas they have in their mind are so ridiculously complex that they can’t even begin to articulate them with 100% accuracy. Art is only ever an approximation, and these vast, necessarily collaborations between hundreds of different artists render the idea of there being a “true” vision obsolete.

And believe it or not, even if video games ever do make it to this fictional level of perfection, people are still going to interpret the events differently because not everyone in the world is the same person. We’ve all lead completely different lives up to that point where we played the game / read the novel / watched the film, and we interpret it differently accordingly.

This isn’t some flaw in the narrative medium: this is reality.

Saying that there should be an infallible “correct” interpretation of anything is ridiculous, because interpretation is only opinion. No one can ever be more “correct” than anyone else, because no one is better than anyone else.

You have noticed that people have been writing books for the past few thousand years, and that there’s a bigger back catalogue of important and meaningful literature than you could ever humanly get through, right?

I mean where do you think the “good” videogame storylines come from, exactly? They’re all two-dimensional versions of plotlines lifted from combinations of novels. Why not just read the novels?

If there “really isn’t anything good to read anymore”, then by definition there can’t be anything good to play or watch, either. Game plotlines are just pale replicas of novels from decades past.

Ever read George Orwell? Graham Greene? Joseph Heller? Aldous Huxley? Anthony Burgess? Ray Bradbury? Hey, they’re just some of my personal favourites; you might like them, you might not. Assuming that you have some variety of taste, there’s more wothwhile authors in the world than I could reasonably point you to.

Or older things, back when the ideas were remotely more original. Shakespeare. Dante. Virgil. Sophocles. Homer. This is where the stories come from.

Really, ridiculous statements like “Novel’s SUCK” don’t invite people to take you seriously.

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I won’t criticise the potential for immersion many novels have to offer, but it is possible for a game to have more depth to its storyline than a novel. Play Planescape: Torment; it pratically is a novel. The game has the same underlying plot every time you play through it (a very dark and mature one at that) but you can steer the course of that story and appreciate the depiction of a world in ways mere words couldn’t even hope to describe. Unfortunatly, I haven’t played a game like this since.

Combine a great game with a great story and the end result is a winner.

45

haha, damn, why did my GF keep me so busy I could’t keep up reading this board for so long? =)

Lance, you have indeed put thoise comments so well that there is hardly anything to add.

I would only add that “atmosphere” (interesting that this word itself means something that can’t be described precisely). I personally don’t devide atmosphere into “good” or “bad” or “much” and “less”.
it’s just something that is there, although it can be artificially constructed to fit the expectation of a broad audience. even Final Fantasy has atmosphere, the non existent plot and the 2 dimensional characters ARE indeed part of the atmosphere…

Also I think a problem of modern games can be that the graphics are in fact TOO good.
My favourite game (and a game i creid in the end (seriously!)) was seiken densetsu ( the original to shinyaku seiken densetsu on GBA) on the gameboy. What made me care for these tiny piles of pixels so much???
as i a book, i really added a face and a voice to them in my mind.

Even in the old PD games the graphics were “bad” enough to do that. I could imagine how the dragons, the enemies and the ships would look like in real life.

46

Ever played the game ‘Telephone’ when you were younger? Where the person in the front of the line has the 100% truth, and he/she whispers that truth to the next person in line and that person whispers to the next person and so on until you get to the last person in line. When the last person says the so called truth…the truth is twisted and is no longer the truth. This is the problem with ‘thinking for yourself’ - chances are, you’re going to misinterpret, and when that happens, you do NOT to see the world the way it was originally envisioned.

Some of my previous posts may have sounded like I am attacking individuality…and that’s exactly what I’m doing. Individuality is the reason why we have war, racism, greed, lust, and gluttony. If everyone thought the same way, not only would we love each other, but we would be extremely advanced technologically, as well.

You can laugh all you want at that statement - but if you were to ‘think for yourself’ without misinterpretation and ponder on those words a little, you would know that what I say is true.

47

Why are you so convinced that there’s such a tangible thing as “truth”, or that it would even matter if there was? “Truth” is just an arbitrary concept; just a human idea. It is impossible to separate the “real” universe from the universe that we experience, becuase we can only experience the universe through perception: and everyone’s perception is different. Thus no one can ever perceive “the truth”, which renders the whole idea of it philosophically irrelevant.

For example, I don’t “see” visible things in the same way that a bird of prey would. Does that make my interpretation of what I see more valid or less valid? Neither: it’s just different. Compared to the canine race, we humans smell in a completely different fashion. Does that mean that what we smell is invalid, is untrue? We can’t see x-ray radiation, but the x-ray radiation is there. Does it matter? Everything in our world is made up of thousands of particles that we simply cannot observe. Is it even relevant? How much detail do you want people to perceive before what they experience can be considered “truth”?

Nothing can be considered an infallible “truth” because the only ways of perciving it conflict with one another. And none of these perceptions can be held more valid than another because right and wrong are also just opinionated concepts.

We also wouldn’t be human. We would likely extract no enjoyment from our existence, as variety and newness fundamentally interest the human psyche, and without variations we would live out purely mechanical lives. After all, if you perceived the world flawlessly and everyone else thought the same as you, there would be no conversation because there would be nothing worth communicating anyway.

But the idea of such a society is hideously unrealistic. Even if a society was composed of clones, a clone living in Europe would perceive the world in a different manner to a clone living in North America, because they’d live a different life and they’d be shaped by different experiences. It’s impossible to regulate the lives of every human being on the planet - even if for some bizarre reason someone wanted to - so differences are inevitable.

Your point that everyone would love each other is pretty ridiculous, because that would depend on whether or not the single “individual” actually liked themself. It’s equally likely that they’d commit mass suicide through sheer boredom, or go insane through having no interesting conversation.

We’re not a race of robots, and we’re not about to become such a race any time soon. I don’t see how fantasising about such an extremist millenarian communist ideal has any bearing on anything.

I’m not going to laugh, as I don’t think there’s anything “funny” about such views.

And with regards to your previous point, wars and killings and all the other troubles of the world clearly don’t arise from a misconception of the truth, because - as I hope I’ve reminded everyone - “truth” is just an abstract human idea. We can never experiece this supposed “true universe” because, as humans, we are unequipped to do so.

These troubles are caused by people who claim to know the infallible truth - which by definition, they can’t - who through sheer ignorance can’t be bothered to consider that people other than themelves might have valid ideas as well.

48

Your long posts disgust me guys…

49

Wow. Thanks, Lance… you’ve left me with just about nothing to say :stuck_out_tongue:

But seriously, there was one point that you didn’t bring up. The example of “Telephone” is not applicable in this case. In “Telephone,” people tell a story, then tell it to another person, and so on and so forth. With books (or any other storytelling medium for that matter, the story is being told to thousands of people, directly from the source. Even if they all interpret it slightly differently, the source material never goes away, and everyone has access to it. There is no need for the audience to retell the story to others, thus keeping the integrity of the story in tact. But, the fact that different people can interpret stories in different ways and take away different lessons is what keeps classic stories alive for centuries.

And Kadamose, even with virtual reality and “nanotechnology” (where the hell did you get the idea that nanotechnology would lead to advanced storytelling methods???), you’d still encounter the same problems. People would interact with the virtual reality in different ways. You’d still run into the same problems, just with a different twist.

The world doesn’t need to be of a single mind. The world only needs compassion and acceptance of others.

50

To make my post short and sweet I’ll say that there is only one thing that make games better than novels: interactivity. I will not assume that books are automatically better than games.

The problem now is that only teams and corporations can make games. The ‘authorship’ that is the centerpoint of any given art is missing. I believe that, someday, tools capable to redeliver this ‘authorship’ to true artists will make the games art side flourish. Until then games will be ‘pop’ things to make money. (the wrong thing about this is that we didn’t have any other alternative)

51

[quote=“Abadd”]
And Kadamose, even with virtual reality and “nanotechnology” (where the hell did you get the idea that nanotechnology would lead to advanced storytelling methods???.[/quote]

Transhumanism. Nanotech memories. Artificial Intelligence. The Singularity. The list goes on. Just imagine having your brain hardwired into a vast network of information where the possibilities are endless. Imagine a world where there is no money system, no government or religion. Imagine a world where there is no hunger or disease. Nanotechnology is going to do this and so much more - and it’s very important that the masses become educated on this subject, because the first Nanotech Assembler will be built at the end of 2012…and if people aren’t prepared, another mass extinction will take place.

I am not joking here - this is not science fiction. With Nanotechnology, we will literally become gods and be able to create our own realities as we see fit.

52

I think you are exagerating.A lot.

53

A very good point.

Please read Reinventing Comics: How Imagination and Technology Are Revolutionizing an Art Form by Scott McCloud on this topic, wich is a excelent book about visual storytelling, many of his ideas apply to video games as well.

I do not say that when game development can be made without involvling money means and freely distributed we’d get only top class titles, or even artistically quality stuff.
It didn’t happen to pop music although the web has been there for years now, hardly any artist markets his/her stuff over the web, and their works are far from mass appealing.

But without the development of independent and inovative titles there will be no evolution at all. I think a possible solution could be more state funding for independent game projects same as for the independent film.

54

Actually, there are ways for independents to make games. You just need a very large skill set to do it yourself. You can use any one of the hundreds of toolkits and modkits to make a game, but you better know how to program, and maybe even do 3D art.

But, making an independent movie is no different. You need to know the technical stuff behind directing, editing, sound design, etc. You need to have an entire cast of people acting (unless you do something that’s not about people, and just about settings, etc., but let’s assume you’re doing a movie about people).

Books, music, etc… Any entertainment industry is difficult to succeed in unless you’ve got a corporation backing you up. Otherwise, you’re an indy (which is why they call them indies). Though, I do agree with the points that SegaTecToy brings up. I mentioned in another thread that I started (“What do you want out of videogames?” I think it was called) in that I believed middleware would eventually become so far advanced, there would eventually by a unification of technologies. There would also be such a vast library of tools, models, textures, animations, etc. that would possibly be available for free or for very cheap, thus allowing independents with limited funds make games of high quality.

In addition to what LC has said, read Understanding Comics by the same author. Fantastic read and very applicable to understanding how even interactive narratives work.

And Kadamose… I honestly don’t know what to say. Perhaps we should all prepare for the coming of the Machines, and pray that it doesn’t take 5 iterations of the Matrix before Neo is born o_O

We already have nanotechnology, be we hardly understand the way memories work. And we will not understand by 2012. Without understanding how the brain works, you cannot “create memories,” nor will you be able to plug yourself into a giant machine as you described.

Besides, what’s the point of creating “our own realities”? I see no enjoyment out of anything in life, if you control all the factors. All the relationships you would have, all your accomplishments you achieve would be nothing more than a dream, nothing would be real. And if you believe that is the ideal world, there are issues that need to be discussed beyond storytelling.

55

No we don’t. What we have is NANOSCALE technology…it’s not true Nanotechnology. ‘True’ Nanotechnology is Molecular Manufacturing (MNT) which allows one to create anything with pinpoint accuracy on the atomic scale.

Not true at all. Currently knowledge is doubling every 6 months - two years ago knowledge was doubling every 10 and half months. At the end of 2012, knowledge will be doubling every second, making all known advances in science and technology unpredictable. This phenomena is also known as the technological Singularity. If you want to watch something about it, you can download ‘Terrance Mckenna - Timewave Zero’ on Suprnova. Highly recommended.

[quote=“Abadd”]

Besides, what’s the point of creating “our own realities”? I see no enjoyment out of anything in life, if you control all the factors. All the relationships you would have, all your accomplishments you achieve would be nothing more than a dream, nothing would be real. And if you believe that is the ideal world, there are issues that need to be discussed beyond storytelling.[/quote]

Let me get something straight here…I am not talking about a virtual reality here. I’m talking about walking, living, breathing catgirls!! We will literally not only have the power to create new life, but will also have the ability to create new planets and traverse the other dimensions. I know it sounds insane, but it’s going to happen. We shall be as gods.

56

Take him to the Sanitarium!!!

Kadamose the coolest thing that can be done with nanotechnology so far in our dreams is to use it as repairers of the human body from teh inside.But still,that too is very distant…

I mean,distant.

57

I guess we will repeat Panzer’s history and become the Ancients after all :stuck_out_tongue:

Either way Kadamose, how exactly does panzer qualify to your expectations if your standards are this high up and every other game sucks cos we don’t have that standard yet? (and seriously if u think we’ll reach that standard you wish for you are insane…)

Oh and to add that we won’t reach it not because of technological constraints but because of everything Lance said about humans and our nature :slight_smile:

Excellent debate Abadd and Lance btw, it’s been a really good read, I wish I had anything to add…

58

  1. What you say is true about technology-based goods, not about the understanding of the human body. While we are understanding more and more about the technical aspects of our own bodies, we have yet to understand the less tangible things (what makes life? what makes thoughts? what makes dreams?), which could happen next year or could happen 500 years from now.

  2. You are talking about a virtual reality. Any reality in which you use technology to shape the world around you into something that appeases you is not true reality.

Methinks you need to learn to deal with the real world, before you start talking about a magical world you wish to create.

59

All I asked for was PDO’s sales, and now what do we have? This…wow. :stuck_out_tongue:

60

Oh and to add that he’s contradicting himself.
First he wants EVERYONE to be the same and think the same and think things the same but then he wants to create catgirls…doesn’t that show he wishes for variety which is the one thing the first point was basically against?
Unless he just wants variety in “toys” but everyone other human to be the same as to not judge him and his views… Still if everyone thought the same there wouldn’t be any variety in anything created either. The variety in humans is what creates variety in the stories we create as well. A society like the one you envision would in the end turn against your very expectations Kadamose. Thank God it’s never going to happen :slight_smile:

Also, Kadamose again, since even you said that every person sees the “truth” different.
What makes you think you are the one that sees the “correct” truth and the things you say are what would be best :slight_smile:
I’m asking this because in the end, I think that you don’t wish for a world that everyone “thinks the same” but instead you wish for a world that everyone “thinks the same as YOU…”