PDO sales

Geoffrey: Entertainment companies, whether or not they make movies, books, games, or whatever, are a blend of business and art. When privately run, the company only needs to follow the vision of a single man/woman. But, that man/woman better be rich beyond belief, or a simple genius. For all publicly owned companies, it’s a constant dance of trying to balance creativity with marketability. It’s a fact of life.

Kadamose: Care to explain why you think all those games are “pieces of shit,” as you put it? I didn’t care much for Ocarina of Time, but I found Zelda: WW to be one of the most inspired games I’ve ever played. KOTOR, imo, revolutionized how an interactive text-based story can be told, much in the way that Ico revolutionized the way a interactive visual story could be told. Prince of Persia is just a marvel in level design, and stylistic action. System Shock (then followed by Half Life and Halo) was a revolution in the way games were presented. The very fact that you could infuse the story into the game world without needing excessive cutscenes and exposition was amazing. Also, it took the youngest game genre of the time (FPS) and turned it on its side. Doom and Quake were nothing but fragfests, but System Shock recognized the FPS’ ability to submerge the gamer into the game world, and let them become the main character.

Beyond Good and Evil is just a beautiful game that blends the magic of a Miyazaki film, with the gameplay of Zelda.

It’s one thing to have favorites of the past, but it’s a completely different thing to close your eyes to anything new because they’re popular. Games are changing, and in my opinion, for the better. It’s time to do away with old mechanisms in games, and allow them to evolve, much in the way Charlie Chaplin forced the motion picture to evolve into a movie.

Well as I - along with most of the hardcore gaming world - quite liked them, and I’d like to think that I’m not a nut of any variety, I think you have to respect that your opinion is only a perspective, not a flawless judgement. Just becasue you didn’t like them doesn’t mean that these (or any of the other games you clearly dislike) are universally bad. I mean I can’t stand most sports sims, but I respect that’s because I have no interest in the sports they’re based on. I don’t like most racing games because I have no enthusiam for realistic car simulations. But I accept that these games are great if you like that kind of thing…

Now unlike Abadd, I though that Zelda: OOT was the more important of those games (with Majora’s Mask being a bit of a cash-in: a truly excellent game and a truly unoriginal sequel, in light of its predeccessor). I similarly didn’t think that Wind Waker added much beyond the wonderful aesthetics and predictable 128-bit polish, except that the concept of the vast ocean-gameworld was excellently carried out.

Now you obviously disagree on all of these counts, but just labelling a game a “piece of shit” without any real reasoning seems pointless; at least respect that others have different opinions to yourself. For example, I felt that Halo had some serious shortcomings, but I know there’s no point casually throwing insults at it because so many of my fellow gamers disagree. And I know that, despite the fact that I don’t like it, it clearly isn’t a universally bad game.

Oh, just to clarify, I recognize the significance of Zelda: OOT. I just didn’t feel like it was polished enough at that point for me to enjoy. Zelda: WW took the same concept, and just put gravy on it, that’s all :slight_smile:

As for Halo, yeah, I agree with the shortcomings. But, despite the shortcomings (areas of repetitive level design, etc.), the overall quality of the game is amazing. Particularly the saturation of the world details and the enemy AI. Not to mention that it was the first FPS to have “true” FPS controls perfected for console.

Nooo! Long posts make my head hurt! :stuck_out_tongue:

Bottom line, Sega is a risk-taking company. Look at Shenmue. They pumped, what some people say, $70,000,000 into that game, and they got incredible results from critics, with unfortunately mediocre results at retail, just enough to break even on the game. But they made history. That’s what usually happens with some of Sega’s greatest games. The reason Sega makes such games is because a big name is behind them. If it wasn’t Yuji Naka who suggested ressurecting Phantasy Star, would it have hapenned in the form of PSO? If it wasn’t Tetsuya Mizuguchi who said something like “Hey, I wanna make a rhythm game with a futuristic space reporter” would Sega have said “Go right ahead” (“And Michael Jackson will be in it.” “Yeah, whatever you want.” :stuck_out_tongue: )? So if Nagoshi-san is somehow inspired to throw his weight behind PDS2, it’ll happen.

O_o You are kidding me

Graphics…
I guess that’s why Orta was a blockbuster then…
:stuck_out_tongue:

Nah I understand ya,still that would imply that the XBox woul at least rival with the PS2 in the US since it can provide much better graphics.(US only since other countries aren’t too receptive to an american console IMO)[/code]

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]

Graphics…
I guess that’s why Orta was a blockbuster then…
:stuck_out_tongue:

Nah I understand ya,still that would imply that the XBox woul at least rival with the PS2 in the US since it can provide much better graphics.(US only since other countries aren’t too receptive to an american console IMO)[/code][/quote]

To be honest, I’d venture that the advertising a game gets and the general theme of the game are more central to its success than the quality of its graphics. These aren’t tangible qualities of the game itself, though, which is what I think the original point was considering.

Advertising certainly goes a long way to determining the success of a console, at any rate, rather than sheer graphical capabilities: we all know that the Nintendo 64 was more capable than the ageing Playstation, but it (and its most important games) had a far inferior advertising capaign. Similarly, its “big games” usually appealed to a much smaller percentage of the gamesplaying public on a thematic level. All this seemed to play an important role in the way the N64 was “born” after the Playstation, and yet it still “died” before it. I can’t help thinking that with the Xbox / Gamecube and PS2, history is simply repeating itself…

I still don’t remember how exactly Sony began winning the war…

At which point?The Genesis was surely a success…
Then came the Saturn…

Btw to EVERYONE : Please stop quoting people if you are gonna reply right next to them.Thanx :slight_smile:

It just that it makes it harder to load.The page I mean.

The graphics are the initial step. Without great graphics, it doesn’t matter what the theme is; people just won’t care.

Like I said, having great graphics doesn’t guarantee you success, but it’s a key factor. Once you have the graphics nailed down, the next step is presentation, then control, then story.

As for the comment about EA/LOTR, it’s no less “deep” than any Panzer shooting game. As far as hack and slash games go, it’s got everything in spades. Sure, it’s by a mega-corporation and it’s based on a humongous license, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not an amazingly well-built game (I’m talking more about ROTK than TTT, because there were a lot of flaws with TTT).

Panzer didn’t sell because of the subject material and genre of the game. The graphics are what made people even remotely interested in it, but without the graphics, people don’t care about it. It’s a shooting game, pure and simple. Arguably one of the best, but that’s like saying the one-eyed man is king amongst the blind.

As for the N64, Nintendo scared away all of its 3rd party with its strong arm tactics in the late 80’s and early 90’s that disenfranchised many developers, and then when Nintendo decided to go with cartridges again for the N64, the rest bailed out (due to the increased costs of development vs. CDs).

That left Nintendo with a very one-sided lineup. Nintendo delivers some of the best quality games out of any developer, but they release them at such a sporadic rate, it was hard for them to retain a larger fan base.

Thus, allowing Sony to pull further into the lead.

What about Sega?

Like I said the Mega Drive was a big success wasn’t it?Why dind’t people but the Saturn?

Ok, I’m going to back up my previous statements and tell why the games I thought sucked…actually sucked.

  1. Zelda 64 - This game was dull. Though the 3D engine used was new for its time, it wasn’t, by any means, innovative. The music was poor (as is the case with most cartridge based games) and the story sucked, as always (name one Zelda that actually had an epic storyline…you can’t name one).

  2. Zelda: Majora’s Mask - the same as above, except it’s even more boring this time around. There is no sense of reward.

  3. Zelda: Wind Waker - Boring with a capital B. This game could have been fun if it had:

a) An epic storyline.

b) The boat you rid on needed to be a little bit faster than it was…the whole game was basically spent at sea. You could literally sleep your way to the next continent, I kid you not.

c) NO SENSE OF REWARD!

  1. Knights of the Old Republic - CLUNKY CLUNKY CLUNKY. Oh and did I mention extremely boring? You’d have to a Star Wars junkie to even enjoy this game. Graphics are below average, music sucks as usual, and a choose your own adventure story. We’ve seen it all before yawn

  2. Beyond Good and Evil - This game had alot of potential. I especially liked how it was presented. Voice acting was top notch, and the story was fairly decent…until you get a few hours into the game that is. It’s then you realize how unbalanced the game truly is. For instance, you are not rewarded for collecting all the pearls in the game, and money is pretty much useless throughout the later half of the game. The story is what really suffers, however - I just beat the game about a week ago, and after watching the ending, I said to myself, “Where the hell did that come from” - In the end it was a half assed story that made little sense, thus rendering the entire experience pointless.

The moral of all this is…a game needs to be well rounded in order to be great…and none of these games are. The story is, by far, the most important factor in a game, (unless you’re playing something like Dance Dance Revolution) and unfortunately, that factor is ignored by most gaming companies. I can honestly say that the only game that exceeds in all of these areas is Panzer Dragoon Saga. Yes, it was a short and very easy game…but every second of the game was cherished and enjoyed, and I doubt any of you can say that about any other game. This is the way games should be made, but aren’t.

I’m not talking about really extreme cases, you understand, I just mean in general terms. For example, it doesn’t matter if Panzer Dragoon Orta has technically superior graphics to the game based on [Enormous Movie Liscense A], it’s not going to sell as well because the theme isn’t held to be as desirable by popular culture.

As you’re surely aware, the video game has long been developing from a literal “game” into something approaching an escapist simulation. These days, people play games for the same reasons that they would read novels or watch films: because it offers the player an experience that real life cannot. The competative element’s still very much there, but ultimately the game has become another form of escapism.

Different game genres offer different experiences, and different experiences appeal to different kinds of people. The problem, as far as selling a new and innovative game is concerned, is that certain gaming experiences are definitely perceived as being more desirable by a given culture as a whole.

For example, the current incarnations of Grand Theft Auto owe much to the success of theme. Now I’m not saying that they don’t have other merits, but the theme really is beneficial to their success.

Basically, in real life you can’t go around stealing cars and shooting people, but GTA lets you do that. It may be glorified violence and crime, but it sells because, on some level, it simulates a socially forbidden experience. The concept of going around shooting your enemies is both forbidden by society and glorified by the media, so a game based around it has a great chance of being popular, as long as the graphics, sound and gameplay meet some kind of minimum requirements.

On the other hand, let’s look at Super Mario Sunshine. Now I don’t know about the US, but in England the idea of walking around as a portly cartoon plumber with a mustache spraying water at things just isn’t held as sexy or desirable by popular culture. It doesn’t matter if Mario’s graphics are technically more impressive than GTA’s or not; it doesn’t matter that Mario has all those realistic water effects and GTA doesn’t; it certainly doesn’t matter if Mario has the deeper gameplay, because popular culture does not deem Mario to be desirable. The mainstream sees him as a childish novelty that only weirdo harcorde gamers bother with.

The Tony Hawks franchise is another example; because although skating is currently fashionable, most people can’t skate worth shit. Tony Hawks lets them do that. The same goes for most sci-fi action games, because since the dawn of 3D rendered graphics in movies, sci-fi has been much more culturally acceptable, to the point of actual desirability. In fact, most games that let you either shoot things or drive fast are in with a realistic chance in the mainstream. The same goes for any game based on a popular film license: if it meets the other requirements, it’s in.

Now I’m not saying that the “minimum requirements” for gameplay, graphics, sound etc. are dirt low, but do you see my point?

Then we have Panzer Dragoon Orta. Flying across an abstract wasteland on a dragon that isn’t green and doesn’t breathe fire, shooting at enemies that look like lumps of modern art. Well it’s going to appeal to some, but it doesn’t matter how good the graphics are, and it doesn’t matter how solid the gameplay is: as you pointed out, it’s not mainstream. It’s not going to knock the latest GTA or Tony Hawk’s or Halo 2 off the popular throne, because its theme isn’t popular.

Now I agree that graphics are paramount to the experience, and general expectations of graphics are always increasing, but the experience that the graphics depict does have a massive impact. Theme is becoming ever more central in this age where “game” has become “simulation”.

EDIT: Sorry for the horrific length of this post, but I hope I’ve got my point across clearly…

[quote=“Kadamose”]Ok, I’m going to back up my previous statements and tell why the games I thought sucked…actually sucked.

  1. Zelda 64 - This game was dull. Though the 3D engine used was new for its time, it wasn’t, by any means, innovative. The music was poor (as is the case with most cartridge based games) and the story sucked, as always (name one Zelda that actually had an epic storyline…you can’t name one).[/quote]

I certainly can’t, but then I can’t name a Resident Evil game, a Virtua Fighter game, a Sonic the Hedgehog game, a Super Mario game, a Doom/Quake game, a Tetris game or a Metroid game that had one either, and like Zelda the storyline in them is largely irrelevant. Zelda isn’t meant to be an epic and serious RPG: it’s a light hearted action-adventure game focusing on gameplay and, above all, the feeling of exploration. By almost every critic’s accounts, it excells in these areas that it sets out to.

It doesn’t show that the game “actually sucked” just because it didn’t have an epic plot - it just shows that you don’t like games if they don’t have epic plots.

[quote=“Kadamose”]3) Zelda: Wind Waker - Boring with a capital B. This game could have been fun if it had:

a) An epic storyline.[/quote]

Again, my previous point applies entirely here.

And I wholeheartedly agree! Although Nintendo created an excellent illusion of an endless ocean and a vast world, crossing that ocean really was very time consuming, and although is was nice at first it really got on my nerves towards the end. This is a common criticism from players, as far as I know, and I expect that the creators won’t make the same mistake in their next vast adventure game.

Well it really does depend on what you find rewarding. I made a point of finding every item and hidden thing in the game without referring to a player’s guide - something I’ve done for years now - and I found that very rewarding indeed. Again, it’s just opinion; just because someone doesn’t like the same things as you does not make them wrong. I don’t expect eveyone else to find Zelda as enjoyable as I did, but I’m not about to brand them wrong because they disagree with me.

Well you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but you should respect that most gamers (both hardcore and casual) really do play games for the gameplay, not the storyline. If you’re really after an excellent story, I’d recommend (in all seriousness) that you read more novels. The standard of narrative in literature is so much higher than in games that I wonder if they will ever catch up.

For the most part, a novel fulfills its role (storytelling) and a game fulfills its (gameplay, providing a specific experience). One of them may not always have an attribute of the other, but that doesn’t make it bad. Zelda may not have any storyline, but then James Joyce’s Ulysses has no gameplay, and it doesn’t make it a crap novel.

Wow. I’m very impressed, Lance. Very well put.

I completely agree with your points over the importance of theme. Perhaps I should have explained, but I lumped that in together with “presentation.” By that, I meant the style of the game, the style of the world, and the canon in which it is presented.

That being said, even in non-extreme cases, graphics are the lowest common denominator when it comes to hit games. If you look through any list of top 20 games on each platform, uniformly, that top 20 represents the 20 of the best-looking games on that platform. The worst game you’ll probably see on there will be something from the GTA series, but what GTA sacrifices in pure visual polish, they make up for in environmental saturation.

I agree that the term “game” is quickly becoming outdated (and it carries with it a nasty connotation of “toy”), but again, that’s primarily for what I like to call the “hardcore elite.”

Take, for instance, my girlfriend. While watching a horror movie, she has to keep her eyes covered, or she won’t be able to go to sleep at night. When I ask her why she’s so scared when it’s just a movie, she responds, “It’s still scary.” But, when playing through Silent Hill 2, and I get freaked out at a given sequence, she responds with a quip, “What’re you scared about? It’s just a game.”

For most casual gamers, the inclusion of games as a valid form of storytellin is still a bit of a stretch at best. It is purely a form of entertainment; a piece of pop culture. Games still do not get the same respect that books and movies do (and rightfully so, as there are still very few games that tell convincing stories).

But, back to the main point. Yes, I think your final statement sums it up perfectly. The point of entry… the ante is the graphics, but you better have a compelling experience behind the graphics (now, what is defined as “compelling” will differ from culture to culture, subgroup to subgroup) in order for it to be a success.

Now onto Kadamose’s points. Having only played through a part of Zelda:OOT and never having played Majora’s Mask, I cannot speak to their quality as much, but with Zelda: WW, what you saw as boring, I saw as epic and majestic. I used to sail when I was in high school, and Zelda:WW captured the feeling of sailing a small vessel perfectly. The wind, the waves… everything. It was a tranquil experience exploring the world, discovering new islands, etc. The story itself is very straightforward, but is done with such a minimalist, yet darkly stylish approach, that it was fantastic. The twists in the middle of the game, though projected, screamed of the stuff of fairy tales that despite the fact that I saw the twist coming a mile away, it was delivered in such a way that I couldn’t help but grin. Never has a game been so unified in its art direction; never has a game been so crafted to match its visual style, rather than the quirky art being an afterthought. And no sense of reward? I’ve played very few games that felt as rewarding. What types of rewards did you want? Were the power-ups not enough? Meeting new characters not enough? Discovering new lands not enough?

As for KOTOR, the graphics are not as polished as, say, Ninja Gaiden, but they were more than adequate (in fact, some parts were beautiful). And Choose Your Own Adventure? Isn’t that pretty much a step up from what RPGs have always been? Up until KOTOR, all console RPGs have been were “talk to this guy, walk through this dungeon, fight these dudes, save the world.” KOTOR put control in the player’s hand as to how they wanted to play the game. And it wasn’t just cosmetic… you could shape world events through your actions, and ultimately affect the outcome of the story. And while a little ham-fisted in the beginning, once the story picked up, it was told with masterful elegance. And, the music was no worst than any videogame, save a couple of songs from the Panzer soundtrack, the Beyond Good & Evil soundtrack, and Zelda.

As for Beyond Good and Evil, I haven’t beaten it yet, so I cannot speak to whether or not the story falls apart in the end, but as it stands, I don’t see that happening. This is only the second game (after Zelda: WW) that I’ve felt that the developers of a game truly loved the world they were creating. You can feel it in the characters themselves and the way they interact with each other.

Story may be one of the most important factors in a game, but it’s not just about the story itself: it’s how the player interacts with that story. You could have a game that has the greatest story, but if all you’re allowed to do is fight a few random encounters, what’s the point? Go watch a movie or read a book, if that’s all you want. There are plenty of games that tell very good stories in very interesting ways, but they’re not packaged as neatly as a movie, because they’re not the same medium.

Play Ico. That is the first purely videogame story that I’ve seen (that I remember, at least). If you cannot enjoy that story, then you’re looking at the wrong medium.

[quote=“Lance”]

If you’re really after an excellent story, I’d recommend (in all seriousness) that you read more novels. The standard of narrative in literature is so much higher than in games that I wonder if they will ever catch up. [/quote]

Novel’s SUCK simply because you have to use your own imagination to try to visualize what the author is trying to get across. With videogames, you see the author’s vision the way he/she sees it. Novels are for people who wish to remain in the dark ages.

Wow. Now I don’t know whether to just give up, or if you’re just kidding.

Dark ages? Are you serious? The whole point of a book is for you to use your head. Novels are only 1/2 of the story. The writer merely provides the words to describe to you what is happening, the rest of the story happens in your mind. In that way, videogames are more similar (or should be) to books than movies. The audience/user should have more control over the story than what movies provide.

Well, Kadamose, at this point, I only have one thing to offer: go watch movies, or go play Final Fantasy. If you want nothing but a story told to you with minimal investment from your side, you’re in the wrong hobby.

Oh, and I play alot of Japanese dating sims and H-games. So, I guess I know where my standards come from, in regard to storytelling.

[quote=“Abadd”]Wow. Now I don’t know whether to just give up, or if you’re just kidding.

Dark ages? Are you serious? The whole point of a book is for you to use your head. Novels are only 1/2 of the story. The writer merely provides the words to describe to you what is happening, the rest of the story happens in your mind. In that way, videogames are more similar (or should be) to books than movies. The audience/user should have more control over the story than what movies provide.

Well, Kadamose, at this point, I only have one thing to offer: go watch movies, or go play Final Fantasy. If you want nothing but a story told to you with minimal investment from your side, you’re in the wrong hobby.[/quote]

You didn’t understand WHY I said novels are for people who wish to remain in the dark ages. My problem with them is not only do you not visualize correctly what the author originally intended, but everyone else who has read the same book interprets the contents differently. This is a bad thing.

Storytelling needs a new medium - which is why virtual reality, holographic memory and Nanotechnology are all things we should be looking forward to.

Now I seriously don’t know whether or not you’re being serious o_O

I have severe problems with Japanese dating sims, primarily because it’s some of the worst gameplay/story/writing I’ve ever seen. Personally, I think you could make a drama game in Japan that appealed to a much broader audience, but I don’t think their game design has gotten far enough to be able to accomplish what I have in mind.

But yeah. Just keep playing your dating sims.

[quote=“Abadd”]…

Now I seriously don’t know whether or not you’re being serious o_O

I have severe problems with Japanese dating sims, primarily because it’s some of the worst gameplay/story/writing I’ve ever seen. Personally, I think you could make a drama game in Japan that appealed to a much broader audience, but I don’t think their game design has gotten far enough to be able to accomplish what I have in mind.

But yeah. Just keep playing your dating sims.[/quote]

The writing on some of them is actually quite good - the ones that don’t have an erotic premise, that is. You should try them out, you’d be surprised. And dating sims really aren’t meant for gameplay…they’re basically erotic novels with visuals and a choose your own adventure path. I find them quite enjoyable.

I have. I’ve played through one of the Tokimeki games, as well a couple of the Sakura Taisen games (1 and 3 to be exact).

It’s all fluff. All the female characters are two dimensional charicatures of what real women are like, the gameplay consists of multiple choice questions (with the exception of Sakura, which varies it up a little with some decent tactics battles), and the writing is exactly the same as any of the dime-a-dozen “kawaii” anime out there.

If you’re going to talk about story, then at least mention something with a little more depth. Movies? Try Lost in Translation, Spirited Away, the Ring, Akira, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, etc. Or hell, if you want something with more popcorn fluff, then at least talk about ones that do something interesting with it: Pulp Fiction, Resevoir Dogs, Clerks, Conan the Barbarian, etc.

Books? Try Ender’s Game, the LOTR trilogy… or if you want to get away from “geeky” stuff, then try Kokoro, Catch 22, Siddhartha, etc.