I would like to see some proof of your assumption. I keep pretty close tabs on the industry and I have NEVER heard of this.
Hmm. I didn’t see that cel shading look in Orta. I saw full blown polygons. But I DID see a sort of manga/anime look in it, especially in the main character. You have to admit, Abadd was cool too. I don’t think abstraction is possible anymore with today’s gaming generation. Everybody loves Halo. Everybody loves Chronicles of Riddick. Bah. If they were going to go for abstraction, they wouldn’t do it by faking inferior graphics to make it look like the old games but by approaching it like Ico did. In fact, I think the artistry of Panzer Dragoon and the artistry of Ico are on par. Ico is more Celtic in nature, and Panzer Dragoon has its own otherworldly feel.
Quoted from my earlier reply to Megatherium:
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]And, since you mentioned the cut scenes of PDS, I preffered that vision of the world than the one Orta gives too… You can’t say that was limited by the system’s power either… I loved the dragons in them, and everything else shown, it was in the same art style as the in-game graphics except in better quality which shows Orta’s changes aren’t simply a matter of the extra detail the developers could achieve…
It also shows the dragon’s armor being “smooth” liike the float engines wasn’t due to the hardware’s limitations like some people suggested before, it was simply because it was supposed to look like that material too.[/quote]
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Orta is not cel-shaded. Oh, and by the way, cel-shaded games have “full blown polygons,” too. They’re just flat-shaded. Orta didn’t have that.
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Any links to the supposed rumor that a Panzer Dragoon RPG is in the works? I’d really like to see where this comes from. Particularly the bit about MS paying for it…
[quote=“Abadd”]1) Orta is not cel-shaded. Oh, and by the way, cel-shaded games have “full blown polygons,” too. They’re just flat-shaded. Orta didn’t have that.
- Any links to the supposed rumor that a Panzer Dragoon RPG is in the works? I’d really like to see where this comes from. Particularly the bit about MS paying for it…[/quote]
Here’s one of several articles on the rumor (using google cache to highlight text):
That’s not even an “article” on a gaming news website (and even if it was, it wouldn’t automatically validate it), it’s simply a post by a random user of those forums and contains nothing to back up his speculations… How does the fact a magazine will review four X-box (not even next gen console) games automatically mean that they are Sega games and on top of that two of them are Shenmue III and PDS II? 
PS: Edit your post, it’s breaking the forums layout <_>
Your referring to its aesthetic feel wherein Cero have done a masterful job of capturing nuance of optic and aural information delivered to the player. Everything is carefully apportioned, especially the action, and the tone and pace is measure for measure. The atmosphere is superbly subdued (on level w/PDS or sometimes, I dare say, even exceeding it). There are no bright colors, it is a very “brown” (a muted, or more psychologically: melancholy) game as they say–which makes color all the more special when it does reveal itself. Unbelievable actions are void–everything seems ultra real within the world’s construct. This is how I think Ico acheives its “minimalist” feel. Yes, it definitely would suit it.
That’s just not true: Look at Rez (vector), look at Silent Hill (grainy), look at Castlevania DS (2D) etc. There is no Law that developers have to abide by artistically–the sky is quite the limit when it comes to game development. Of course if you want to pander to the lowest common denominator go right ahead and develop Halo 3 or Grand Theft Auto 24: Mass Murderer and the masses will slurp it up.
Secondly, I don’t think they set out to do a surreal game trilogy, nor does the next PD need to emulate the exact polygon count–merely the texture and degree of detail as seen in PDS. I’m overjoyed with the detail/feel of Wanda and the “surreal polygons” are nowhere in sight.
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]That’s not even an “article” on a gaming news website (and even if it was, it wouldn’t automatically validate it), it’s simply a post by a random user of those forums and contains nothing to back up his speculations… How does the fact a magazine will review four X-box (not even next gen console) games automatically mean that they are Sega games and on top of that two of them are Shenmue III and PDS II?
PS: Edit your post, it’s breaking the forums layout <_>[/quote]
That’s just a post on a message board from an article from Gamedreamz.com (which is no longer up). There are several more articles on google which pretty much say the same thing in regard to that rumor.
So internet rumor = fact now?
Wow… maybe that really WAS Nigerian royalty that wanted my bank account number 
Rumors are rumors. That is all they ever are until a company makes an official announcement. Let’s not waste time discussing one.
[quote=“DivineDragon”]
Rumors are rumors. That is all they ever are until a company makes an official announcement. Let’s not waste time discussing one.[/quote]
He was being sarcastic…
The ONLY time i’ve read of this it wasn’t even a rumor.
There was an article in xbox.ign.com that just stated they think an RPG for the launch of the next Xbox console would be a key in it’s success. They went as far as saying that Microsoft should fund the project for Sega to create another PD RPG. I think that is were all these rumors started.
http://xbox.ign.com/articles/500/500555p5.html (scroll down)
also
http://xbox.ign.com/articles/529/529931p8.html (scroll down)
Wow… Deathrow 2 and Phantom Crash 2 in their “top 5 list of dream sequels”???
you guys have blown the changes WAY out of proportion. i think eventually you’ll come to realize that a minor change in the empire’s clothing, the designs of the dragon (which are ever changing), and the focus not being on the towers is all so insignificant in light of all the similarities.
true, i only said that i thought that is what they would have done if they could. but what about all the concept art that truly shows what they wanted to do but could not because of the graphical limitations?
this is getting ridiculous. the context of my paragraph was quite clear. if you all weren’t trying so hard to twist my words, maybe you would have realized that all i had been talking about was CLARITY OF THE VIEW. so with that in mind “best” means “best for a clear view”, “most clear”, “clearest”.
i think you are all trying to discredit me by attaching me to an argument that i never supported and infact oppose with fervor. but if you honestly misunderstood, then from here on out just trust that regardless of what you thought i said, i never supported that argument. ask for clarification if necessary.
I believe that only one person complained about the lack of towers and it certainly wasn’t me. That would be fine with me if the new storyline was good.
I wouldn’t call the dragon’s designs insignificant since it’s the main attraction that exists in all the games of the series… And I elaborated the differences I didn’t like, it wasn’t the anatomical changes which could be possible, it was the fact that he now looked like he was made from a completely different material. Which may be explained storyline wise but as solo said earlier the storyline didn’t have to have been created like that… If anything, they could have made it prettier too, I found the dragon ugly in many aspects and when I’m used to aesthetically pleasing designs from the previous games I do see it as ugly and out of place despite the higher polycounts and what not.
The same goes for the change in the look of the float engines, and the same goes for all the creature designs from which very few of them are as good as/better than the old games’ designs.
It also expands to imperial enemies with the statue, the huge air fortress, the weird boss with the “claws” attached on it which would look more fitting in Skies of Arcadia and many many other designs.
These are the tip of the iceberg and expand to other things like even smaller enemies. What kind of silly craft designs were those things you fought while flying on the side of the air fortress for example? Those very… round ones.
I don’t think anyone brought the changes out of proportion, they simply do not pretend they are not there and call the game for what it is to them. A washed out Panzer Dragoon world vision which is not as good as the previous games. Noone of the main argue-ers (lol?) that took part in this discussion claimed Orta is a piece of sh*t that looks nothing like a Panzer game for example. Sure it looks like one, but we prefer the old ones and none of you guys have said anything that may change our opinion.
“Aww come on now that change is not that important. That other change isn’t either. Oh come on, that thing here is similar. And that’s the same. Oh yeah that one is different but not important.” That kind of discussion won’t make me ignore the changes that in my eyes are so striking… I did mention a few aspects I liked like the new pure type creatures…
I also didn’t just stay on the visual aspect and elaborated the gameplay differences I didn’t like either based on enemy patterns and level design. Maybe you wanna find that earlier post of mine (Solo replied to it later) and see what I meant by that.
It does. And the in-game graphics were created in such a style that they really portayed that vision well enough for you to see them as the same art style. And, again, the cut scene movies also showed that vision in the same art style as the in-game graphics except in higher quality. And that too was different from Orta.
[quote=“Megatherium”]
this is getting ridiculous. the context of my paragraph was quite clear. if you all weren’t trying so hard to twist my words, maybe you would have realized that all i had been talking about was CLARITY OF THE VIEW. so with that in mind “best” means “best for a clear view”, “most clear”, “clearest”.[/quote]
Great, and as I said above, it’s a clear view of Smilebit’s vision which doesn’t automatically make it better than or as good as TA’s vision in order for me to not complain about it and love the game as much as the old ones. Most all modern games have “clearer graphics” from the Saturn trilogy, does that make them as good as or better than them? And if not, why argue this point at all? I don’t think anyone here claimed that the Saturn games had more detailed or higher polygon or higher resolution graphics… They simply prefer the old art style. I don’t see the point of saying that again. You completely ignored the cut scenes point I made as well…
Alexander summed it up nicely. My case is closed.
neither did i, thanks for twisting my words yet again.
that’s fine, i thought most of the original designs were ugly so i guess it’s all personal. the only ones i really liked of the original trilogies were solowing, light wing, sky dart, and the dark dragon. i thought most of lagi’s forms in zwei as well as defense and spiritual classes (especially earlier on) were ugly.
orta’s designs i just thought looked weird but i definitely liked basewing and heavy wing (more at lower levels).
i believe those were suicide bombers. merely a person in a pod with a float engine and explosives.
you assume that that is what i am doing? i fully acknowledge the changes. there were some that i found questionable, but there were also some that i found quite questionable in the original series. what were they called hoppers? then there was the first boss you fight to save gash… many others that i cannot remember the names of.
my aim was never to change your opinions, make sure you understand that. i don’t care if you like or dislike orta, my participation in this discussion was to refute statements that are factually incorrect anti-orta propaganda.
sure, and orta’s graphics were done in such a way as to convey the same art style as orta’s concept art and FMVs. but i think orta was much much closer to its concept art than the original trilogy was to its own concept art.
great, and as i said above, i’m not trying to convince you of anything. i personally do not believe that the world of orta is that different from the world of the originals and so i see value in the the clearer view. i already gave the order in which i liked the games and since zwei is still my #1, you should see that that clearer view is not the only thing i cared about.
i did not reply to your paragraph about the cutscenes because of these problems:
firstly you are wrong, the FMVs were still limited by the saturn’s resolution. i believe they ran at 320x240. this yields a very pixelated FMV. i didn’t reply to this because i felt it was nitpicking.
secondly, the rest of your paragraph is pure opinion and i have no interest in arguing over that.
[quote=“Megatherium”]my participation in this discussion was to refute statements that are factually incorrect anti-orta propaganda.
[/quote]
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You’ve got too much time on your hands. There is more to life than videogames. Get out and take a walk and enjoy the fresh air.
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Factually incorrect because you don’t agree? That’s crazy talk.
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Anti-Orta Propaganda? It’s called opinion, just like everthing you’ve babbeled on about is.
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The only thing your proving to us is that yer a big jerk.
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Orta is inferior to the Saturn trilogy. That is fact.
~FIN~
Number 5 sounds like an opinion to me as well. It’s just one most people agree with. Panzer Dragoon Orta is my favorite shooter. I probably like it more, as a game, than the first two shooters. Only Saga beats it as my favorite Panzer Dragoon. However for Panzer Dragoon authenticity, Zwei is probably better than Orta.
I think what Smilebit should’ve done was not make the dragon run on all fours when it lost its wings and design it not so much like a dinosaur and more like Dragonriders of Pern. They also should’ve made the Heavy Wing less skeletal. But we shouldn’t be talking about ugliness or prettiness because some of Lagi’s forms are pretty weird. Remember the final form in Zwei? It looked like a griffon. And Defense Wing in Saga is stocky and fat while Agility Wing looks like a fish.
But that’s just my opinion. I think ultimately Panzer Dragoon Orta was a product of today’s superflashy graphics and thus the dragon had to look more like a real creature than the dragons of the previous games.
[quote=“Kadamose”]
Exactly. The question is, is that a good thing, a bad thing, or a good thing and a bad thing? 
Definitely a BAD thing. The ONLY people who can give us what we want (a direct sequel to PDS) are the old artists and designers of the original trilogy. If done by anyone else, we’ll just get another product like Orta…which was a dumbed down version of the PD universe with great gameplay. Who wants that? I certainly don’t.[/quote]
And a few of the artists that made SAGA worked on ORTA. You know the TA Team were changing all the time with members coming in and leaving while making the 3 Saturn games. It would be impossible for the same SAGA Team to make part II
Talking about SAGA II. I’m happy if were to get a new Panzer shooter just as much as I would be for a RPG Panzer.
SAGA isn’t a true Panzer game if people want to be so cleverwith all this knocking ORTA ;). Only a on-rails shooter can be classed a true Panzer game.
Zwei, or SAGA isn’t the best in the series. For me that will always be the original