I haven’t read any of Anne McCaffrey’s novels myself, but don’t the Pern dragons look like traditional fantasy dragons…? I’d say that Smilebit would have pleased fans more if they’d kept to the established style of the dragon from the previous games, and simply created some interesting new forms for it to take on; if they were determined to make larger cosmetic changes (like the ones we see in PDO), it may have been wiser to work towards them gradually…
Surely not a griffon? They have the head and wings of an eagle and the body of a lion, don’t they?
[quote=“DivineDragon”]1) You’ve got too much time on your hands. There is more to life than videogames. Get out and take a walk and enjoy the fresh air.
Factually incorrect because you don’t agree? That’s crazy talk.
Anti-Orta Propaganda? It’s called opinion, just like everthing you’ve babbeled on about is.
The only thing your proving to us is that yer a big jerk.
Orta is inferior to the Saturn trilogy. That is fact.
~FIN~[/quote]
If you had actually bothered to READ Megatheriums posts throughout this discussion, and perhaps process some thought, you’d realize that every point you just made (especially 1 and 5) were completely useless and made you look silly.
Actually, I was sort of into the Pern dragons before I discovered PD. The novels are pretty much crap, but some of the cover art is kind of cool. The dragons are somewhat similar in that they’re about the same size, their wings are where their arms would be instead of projecting from their shoulder blades, and people ride them. Also, both PD and Pern have a sort of sci-fi background rather than fantasy.
I just don’t see these artistic differences everyone is crying about. It looks a bit more like a fantasy game then a sci fi game, but thats about all I can find thats different. Whats the big problem with the empire changing clothing and ship design? They still show s simularities. They’ve just evolved. Changed. 30 years passed in the Orta world. We don’t still fly bi planes in war do we? Fashions change. Sure, these changes didn’t have to happen, but what good is a world if it didn’t evolve?
Orta was a fine game, and was done amazingly well and true to the series considering the circumstances. You should feel grateful we even got this game, because Panzer was never more then a cult game. And looking at the sales of Orta, we’ll be lucky to see another one.
I think of the changes in Orta as a next gen transition. Now that more power is available, the developers and artists have changed their artistic style to make use of the hardware, and realize the world in full. The changes weren’t even that drastic, and I feel the people here are overexagerating them.
I liked Orta. It is the best Panzer game I’ve ever played, and I played and finished Saga. It is longer then the past rail games, more difficult then Saga, and brought the world to life. Sure, in story and realization of the Panzer world, nothing beats Saga. It was an RPG, and a good one at that. But Orta wasn’t an RPG. And considering it’s restrictions as a rail shooter, it did a pretty damn good job realizing the world in it’s own right.
You almost scored there wise guy.
Thing is people don’t consider Orta a (“fully) true” Panzer game as far as aesthetics is concerned.[/quote]
Well then they are wrong. The Art was chaging all the time with the Saturn games. Just look at how much the Dragons changed from the very 1st Blue Dragon to one like the Skydart.
If people want to be really Picky then morphing and being able to walk on foot isn?t true to the Panzer series at all. People never had a problem with SAGA though.
EP 2 in ORTA is as Panzer as you can get. A totally organic world that is full of amazing sights and weird creatures.
I think it?s true to series , and so crateful to Smilebit and SEGA for making the game in the 1st place
[quote=“nuckles87”]I just don’t see these artistic differences everyone is crying about. It looks a bit more like a fantasy game then a sci fi game, but thats about all I can find thats different. Whats the big problem with the empire changing clothing and ship design? They still show s simularities. They’ve just evolved. Changed. 30 years passed in the Orta world. We don’t still fly bi planes in war do we? Fashions change. Sure, these changes didn’t have to happen, but what good is a world if it didn’t evolve?
Orta was a fine game, and was done amazingly well and true to the series considering the circumstances. You should feel grateful we even got this game, because Panzer was never more then a cult game. And looking at the sales of Orta, we’ll be lucky to see another one.
I think of the changes in Orta as a next gen transition. Now that more power is available, the developers and artists have changed their artistic style to make use of the hardware, and realize the world in full. The changes weren’t even that drastic, and I feel the people here are overexagerating them.
I liked Orta. It is the best Panzer game I’ve ever played, and I played and finished Saga. It is longer then the past rail games, more difficult then Saga, and brought the world to life. Sure, in story and realization of the Panzer world, nothing beats Saga. It was an RPG, and a good one at that. But Orta wasn’t an RPG. And considering it’s restrictions as a rail shooter, it did a pretty damn good job realizing the world in it’s own right.[/quote]
Brilliant post mate. Spot on imo.
Think a lot of people are upset becasue ORTA wasn’t a SAGA II (RPG)
This conversation is going in circles, people have stated over and over what they found different, the reasons they have found them different and yet everyone that disagrees keeps saying “oo, the other games had changes too” or “oo, you just wanted an RPG and are upset cos you didn’t get one” or even “oo, come on the changes aren’t that big, now get over it”.
Completely pointless. Just read the whole thread and you’ll find that what you say about the changes in the previous games has already been discussed and explanations have been given on why people don’t like the Orta changes but found the previous games’ changes natural or fitting or whatever.
Noone (or maybe one?) said Orta was bad simply because it was not an RPG so I fail to see why that keeps coming up as an explanation. Cheap Cheap Cheap.
Anyway, I don’t see how you find these posts “spot on” when they’ve brought no points against the posts of the people that have that belief who have already replied to these points you bring now since they are simply the repeating of older already discussed posts.
I’m not going to repeat them in this post because it will only bring another bunch of replies that have been said before as an “answer” to them thus contributing to the pointless circle.
It seems the “side” that may “win” this argument (which I don’t think can be won either way really) is the “side” that is willing to repeat their opinion the most times without getting bored of seeing the same things over and over
I agree that this isn’t an argument that can be “won”, as it all comes down to opinion in the end, but something I’d like to point out is that I don’t think that Orta’s art style was necessarily better than the Saturn games. What it is, though, is a great art style in its own right that is true to the Panzer Dragoon name and could have quite easily happened in the Panzer Dragoon world that Team Andromeda created, given the right circumstances.
I want variety. I want to see different cultures. I want to be taken far over the distant seas to other continents, to explore ruins of different countries from the Ancient Age, each with their own respective languages, cultural designs, etc. I want to see how the world changes over time, how it reacts to great landmass changes and the deactivation of life-supporting ruins. I don’t just want to see the continent of Panzer Dragoon, I want to see the whole world of Panzer Dragoon.
So do I think the art style is better? No, but it doesn’t have to be
Actually, I was sort of into the Pern dragons before I discovered PD. The novels are pretty much crap, but some of the cover art is kind of cool. The dragons are somewhat similar in that they’re about the same size, their wings are where their arms would be instead of projecting from their shoulder blades, and people ride them. Also, both PD and Pern have a sort of sci-fi background rather than fantasy.[/quote]
I was a huge Pern fan in high school, so I can’t let this go. Sorry, Bluefoot, a few corrections.
Pernese dragons have six limbs (four legs and two wings). They are huge though. The smallest of them would probably be around the size of Solo Wing. The largest is about the size of a 747 jumbo jet. They look somewhat like the basic fantasy dragon, but there are particular features to them that if you’re used to seeing them you could ID artwork of a Pernese dragon anywhere. For instance they have no scales, so they’re always despicted as smooth-bodied, they have multi-faceted eyes, and their tails end in a distinctive spade shape.
My main problem with the dragon in Orta running on all fours was that its front limbs were formerly its wings. If a Pern dragon ran on all fours that wouldn’t bother me because the front limbs are actually legs and always have been. But with Orta I have difficultly believing that damaged wings make a good substitute for an extra set of legs. They weren’t originally meant to be used as legs, so can they really be that effective at supporting the dragon’s weight?
That’s because it was originally called “Azel: Panzer Dragoon RPG”. That is, it was an RPG based on the Panzer Dragoon world. Technically, it isn’t a Panzer Dragoon game at all, but an awesome RPG based on it.
yep, and it would imho be a very good idea if Sega would decide to use this “two different franchises” philosophy for a next “Foo : Panzer Dragoon RPG”.
That’s because it was originally called “Azel: Panzer Dragoon RPG”. That is, it was an RPG based on the Panzer Dragoon world. Technically, it isn’t a Panzer Dragoon game at all, but an awesome RPG based on it.[/quote]
Yeah but how many class it as the best in the Panzer series ?. When it really isn’t a true Panzer game.
Fair enough people picking holes in the story of ORTA I can fully understand that But some people are just being so picky over the ART in ORTA.
EP 4 boss has funny arms, EP 5 the Dragon runs on all fours ect. I just find that incredibly fussy and picky .
For a start people have to realise at how much more powerful the X-Box is over the DC, never mind the Saturn. I can bet if Panzer were to have come out on the DC, people would have seen a change in Art thanks to the extra power (Even if the same team made the game). The Art was changing all the time in the series on the Saturn .
Have a look at some of the creatures in SAGA they were becoming far more elaborate in their design, so were the dragon forms too. So why all this fuss with ORTA. The orignial game will 10 years old in a couple of months games and Art direction move on.
Just look at how the chaacters in Street Fighter and VF have changed over the years. And they are just Fighters
ORTA was called that in part to mark the title as a new begging to the series
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Fair enough people picking holes in the story of ORTA I can fully understand that But some people are just being so picky over the ART in ORTA.
EP 4 boss has funny arms, EP 5 the Dragon runs on all fours ect. I just find that incredibly fussy and picky .[/quote]
Why do you feel that it’s more picky to criticise the art of the game than its storyline, TA? Both are key components of the PD world and vital to the atmosphere that the game creates; and if enough people have complaints about an aspect of one of these things (which would seem to be the case here), you can be fairly sure that they’re not all being pedantic. Also, I can’t see why it’s fussy to point out things such as the dragon running on all fours not logically making sense; just because you didn’t have a problem with this yourself doesn’t mean that everyone should find it appropriate, as anyone who’s studied the anatomy of flying creatures would probably raise this same point.
I would say because change itself isn’t the issue here; what’s being questioned is the quality, coherency and appropriateness of (some of) the new designs.
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Fair enough people picking holes in the story of ORTA I can fully understand that But some people are just being so picky over the ART in ORTA.
EP 4 boss has funny arms, EP 5 the Dragon runs on all fours ect. I just find that incredibly fussy and picky .[/quote]
Why do you feel that it’s more picky to criticise the art of the game than its storyline, TA? Both are key components of the PD world and vital to the atmosphere that the game creates; and if enough people have complaints about an aspect of one of these things (which would seem to be the case here), you can be fairly sure that they’re not all being pedantic. Also, I can’t see why it’s fussy to point out things such as the dragon running on all fours not logically making sense; just because you didn’t have a problem with this yourself doesn’t mean that everyone should find it appropriate, as anyone who’s studied the anatomy of flying creatures would probably raise this same point.
I would say because change itself isn’t the issue here; what’s being questioned is the quality, coherency and appropriateness of (some of) the new designs.[/quote]
Well the story is so rich and diverse to the Panzer games (much like the Panzer world it?s self) that there?s bound to be varying views on the story. Every Panzer game for me answers just as questions as its leaves un-answered.
I speak as someone that never played a Panzer game in English till 1998. When in the lead up to SAGA I finally got the 1st 2 games on PAL so I could play them in English and fully understand the story. Until SAGA it was the gameplay, Art and Sound design that attracted me to the series more than anything else (though I could work out some of the story even in Japanese).
As for ART it was always changing even on the Saturn games. Zwei was a marked departure from the look of the original. Which was far more classical it?s look and sounds. Which the ancient ruins and classical music score. Zwei was far more industrial and modern in its look.
So the Art and designs were changing all the time ORTA is no different. So just can?t understand why people have such a problem with it. ORTA was showing off a new civilisation, and the power of the X-Box alone meant the world was going to look vastly different from the start .
Sorry if this looks as If I’m having a go at people (we all have diff views ect). But just think some people are just being a bit too obsessive
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]As for ART it was always changing on the Saturn games. Zwei was a marked departure from the original. Which far more classical it?s look and sounds. Which the ancient ruins and classical music score. Zwei was far more industrial and modern in its look.
So the Art and designs were changing all the time ORTA is no different.[/quote]
But as I say, the issue here isn’t change itself but the specifics of that change; the problem being that many people simply don’t like a lot of the new designs in PDO because they don’t feel they’re as well thought-out as the designs in the previous games, or as coherent when taken as a whole, or as appropriate as the other “new” designs that have been introduced in the past.
Now to be fair, I’d say that calling people obsessive over this probably is having a go at them; you may not have been disappointed with PDO’s artistic style yourself, but from what I can gather at least 50% of fans weren’t satisfied with some aspect of it (particularly those who are artists themselves). And at the end of the day, people do come here to discuss PD and what they did and didn’t like about PD; in-depth criticisms should be expected.
and some people overglorify orta because it’s (supposed to be) panzer.
the quality of the designs is not better in orta. in the old games you could see a clear progression in the quality of the designs, the became daring and new, and I think it’s its uniqueness that marks the old games.
by daring I mean things like using the 2D playfield effects of the saturn to mimik water or the volumetric light effects when edge enters anjou’s tent for the first time. this was daring, and showed that there were really no limitation in what TA wanted to do. Just remember HOW FAR ahead of it’s time the old games were in those days.
In Orta I can nowhere see this quality and daringness. Sure, the graphics are good, but they are just that: good.
Perhaps I judge graphics harder because I work as a CG artist myself, but the models in orta are nothing I (or anyone who can work professionally with 3ds max and photoshop) can’t do if your paid for it and have 18 months time.
And this is just the graphics! Remember what a fantastic soundtracks they made with the Saturn soundchip. or such lovable effects as the voice slowdown/speedup during the ingame sequences. and about the FMVs, just sample down the ORTA videos to 320*180 and you will see that the styles are totally different, and that Orta has just a standard anime style.
btw, the dragons in PD are supposed to look like fish. an old chinese proverb says 一登龍門 wich means “the first uprising to the dragon gate”.
in china people believed sturgeons would become dragons and would fly when they swam up a waterfall (that may be the reason why the character for waterfall is written with “water” and “dragon”) now look at the final form of the black dragon, doesn’t the snout look very much like a surgeon? and now think about why TA used wooden models of fish when animating the enemies in the old games.
I don’t over overglorify Orta at all. For me the 1st game remains the best in the series. None come close to that
AS for graphics and sound I just don’t agree with that either. Yot can be the best programer in the world it makes no diff if the Art Team don’t come up with the goods.
My fav desgin inthe whole of ORTA is on The Pussa Bubo. Only the Pazner Art Team can come up with that sort of desgin much like with thier work on Catharp, Yarua, Ikrakar.
Americans and the Western Art Teams dream on (Not matter how good at 3D Max you are)
Many people on here hate the look of Imperial Defense Unit (EP 8 boss). That’s Takashi Iwade proudest part of the Artwork in ORTA. A man that’s been on the Panzer Art Team form the very start.
The way some people talk on here they could swear they worked for Team Andromeda and SEGA Japan on the Saturn series .
The Water effects in Saturn games weren’t daring at all if people want to be really clever.
They were just a great use of VDP II (in truth ) much like the effects in Burning Rangers and RSG made great use of the VDP II flat planes. Used in part to overcome Saturn lack of polygons.
Tadahiro Kawamura (AM#2) said it wasn’t hard to use/program the VDP II. Just hard to find uses for it that looked right.
The fact remains not may X-Box are pushing as many polgons as ORTA and running at 60 fps. The way the light Reflects and bounces off creatures like Pussa Bubo and Ikrakar looks amazing. It?s makes their skin look almost real, that you can reach out an touch it (No other X-Box game comes clsoe To achieving that). So ORTA got nothing to worry about on that score.
Talking about music/score . There again I disgree. This music score ORTA is just as good as inthe Saturn series.
Ancient Weapon it just a tune refuses to get out of my head. It?s the greatest tune I?ve heard this gen. Much like the Imperal City tune (It’s like you can most here a chorus of people/guards chanting in the background).
As for FMV. No game as come close to Expressing real human emotions as the expression on ORTA face through out the FMV in the game. I can almost fell her pain
You want a good exmaple on how the change in the art department can’t really be explained by the XBox’s garphical power?
Just look at the unlockable Blue and Panzerwing dragons.Those are gorgeous in terms of art.Are they better with XBx garphics than they were with Saturn ones?Of course.But are they anything like the Glide wing for example?No.
It’s not because XBox is more powerful that they HAD to change the style in any way.
Oh and about Ep8’s boss.I don’t care who the designer is.Like I stated in a previous post the notion of a constructed-world (LOTR,Pandra,Dune…) can be manipulated in any way imaginable by it’s authors.But for those that were used to stable changes dratsic stuff like we see in Orta hurts the eyes.
Regardless of the art’s and music’s originality they suffered drastic changes.
And since we are all expressing ourselves as the PD fans we are we tend to comment about the differences and not necesserilly on the quality.
If a PD game would have a soundtrack made by Spock’s Beard (probably my fav band) I would love th score.Thing is it doesn’t really sound Panzer now does it?
Sorry, Bluefoot, a few corrections.
. There again I disgree. This music score ORTA is just as good as inthe Saturn series.