New Sonic game: Sonic Generations

[Geoffrey]

No. Fable II and III are some of the best selling games of this gen and they’re buggy as hell, so is F1 2010 and its sequel and they’re sold millions.

Because people put up with it or because the overall package is still good enough. That does not mean it’s ok to make buggy games. Is that what you are trying to argue? That’s self-defeating and not at all good for gaming.

It’s subjective one person best film or fav games is another person worst nightmare

No doubt, but some things are popular for a reason. Quality is still a main ingredient. Compare the first Matrix to the last one. The first was infinitely better when the last knew it could lack the same polish because it was riding the brand recognition anyway. The first film did not have that luxury, so it had to be good.

No it was early in the console life in a genre that didn’t enjoy that much success on a MS console - It was a Huge risk to all

I remember those days well. The 360 was still gathering momentum and lacked real AAA titles, so this was hyped up with good reason because it pushed the console’s limits. It had the market all to itself. It still had to be good to make the PS3 look worse, which it did.

Yes so this notion that only quality sells is wrong , just my point.

Quality is still a main ingredient for success regardless if garbage sells or not.

Do you want people to sell you garbage? If no one puts up with it, it won’t happen as much.

Why makes excuses for multi-billion dollar corporations that don’t care about you?

SEGA biggest market for games sales isn’t Japan , but the West Duke.

Then why is Sega irrelevant to the mainstream?

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Looking over Football Manager, Total War, Moneyball, PSO, Yakuza . I’ll simply ask other than COD what is known for really , other than Pro Evo or Metal Gear what is Konami known for to the main stream.
Just because ‘you’ don’t like or deem the games worthy enough, doesn’t mean that don’t sell, or the corps in question are selling a lot of games.[/quote]

Sega just isn’t up their with the other publishers in terms of brands. Even Sonic has been left behind.

You’ve never played Tony Hawk: Ride?. That game reviewed just as bad as Sonic 06 in most cases

And that should not have sold either.

EA has been posting billions in losses the last couple of years . Get your facts straight .

EA > Sega in terms of market penetration and brand recognition. EA is competing with the giants Activision and Blizzard. EA would happily monopolize by selling people the same game every year with minor adjustments if they could. Oh wait. Selling LOTR games to coincide with the films was good tbh to exploit the brand recognition even further. Sega is nothing compared to that.

[Team_Andromeda]

Because people put up with it or because the overall package is still good enough.

I would put to you quite a lot of SEGA fall into that bracket.

Quality is still a main ingredient.

Not always how can utter tripe like Pearl Harbor Hancock, Batman Forever make so much money at the Box Office

I remember those days well. The 360 was still gathering momentum and lacked real AAA titles

That is the same for every console early in. That doesn’t change the fact it was a Huge risk for Epic with no experience in making such a game and not being an established console name and for MS it was a risk to lavish so much cash on the production.

Do you want people to sell you garbage

Silly, Nobody sets out to make carbage , not one sets out to buy garage but it happens that is all I’m saying.

Why makes excuses for multi-billion dollar corporations that don’t care about you

I’m not making excuses just saying what happens in the real world

Then why is Sega irrelevant to the mainstream

It really depends on what you mean by mainstream, because in software sales in Retail the mobile and digital markets SEGA isn’t doing too bad at all

[quote]Sega just isn’t up their with the other publishers in terms of brands. Even Sonic has been left behind.
[/quote]

Can’t think of many other games from Activsion other than COD then ? . I agree with you on IP and doing more for the WW market when it comes to SEGA, that doesn’t change the fact SEGA made some decent games and making huge strides to get Sonic and PSO back on form.
BTW, Sonic Generations is the most pre-order Sonic game in history , so its seems old SONIC isn’t quite left behind.

And that should not have sold either

Just shows you that even giants make poor games and released them in unfinished states

EA > Sega in terms of market penetration and brand recognition.

EA still lost billions FACT , So EA isn’t quite so good at making money as you thought.

Now before the topic is derailed any more I much rather talk about Sonic when I get my copy next week

[Geoffrey]

I would put to you quite a lot of SEGA fall into that bracket.

Yet no one in the mainstream cares about Sega anymore.

Not always how can utter tripe like Pearl Harbor Hancock, Batman Forever make so much money at the Box Office

Dude, we are going around in circles here. You keep missing something.

Quality that gives people what they want will beat lack of quality that doesn’t or even does.

And if garbage sells, that people’s own fault for buying it. Their own fault for being stupid.

Your argument is: garbage sells so Sega should make garbage.

No, sorry, that’s not good for gaming. And will eventually hurt itself. You can’t sell a lot of garbage when there is competition or discerning buyers.

And no one should make excuses for Sega when they had so much money to invest.

That is the same for every console early in. That doesn’t change the fact it was a Huge risk for Epic with no experience in making such a game and not being an established console name and for MS it was a risk to lavish so much cash on the production.

So? It got the investment it needed to be great, and it paid off. It was good timing and safe timing when everyone was crying out for competition. That is called being smart.

Silly, Nobody sets out to make carbage , not one sets out to buy garage but it happens that is all I’m saying.

Business will only invest what it has to invest, and will invest the barest minimum to see more profits. Unless you make business work for your money, it will stagnate.

For example, if TOR fails to take off, the MMO market will stagnate for a few more years. Graphics won’t make the best of the tech available, people won’t upgrade their PCs as much, and prices for hardware won’t come down as fast and as quick to meet demand, etc etc.

You can debate whether that is good for gaming or not. It’s nice not being forced to upgrade for a while, but sooner or later, we’ll want better graphics etc, and more investment into gameplay.

I’m not making excuses just saying what happens in the real world

You know, in the real world, we used to be ruled by kings, and people back then thought that could never change. Things can change if we force it.

I’m not buying garbage or mediocrity when a multi-billion dollar corporation can simply do better, and neither should you.

It really depends on what you mean by mainstream, because in software sales in Retail the mobile and digital markets SEGA isn’t doing too bad at all

No one cares about Sega in the mainstream gaming sense because Sega isn’t relevant like the other big publishers are. I wish I was wrong, and hope that changes, but we have to be realistic. Supply and demand is all that matters.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Can’t think of many other games from Activsion other than COD then ? . I agree with you on IP and doing more for the WW market when it comes to SEGA, that doesn’t change the fact SEGA made some decent games and making huge strides to get Sonic and PSO back on form.
BTW, Sonic Generations is the most pre-order Sonic game in history , so its seems old SONIC isn’t quite left behind. [/quote]

Let’s hope so, and hope that Sega finally gets it right for a change.

Just shows you that even giants make poor games and released them in unfinished states

Because people buy those games. No one is forcing them to buy anything.

EA still lost billions FACT , So EA isn’t quite so good at making money as you thought.

Competition was good for EA and its soulless greed, but it’s come this far and is still a big name.

Now before the topic is derailed any more I much rather talk about Sonic when I get my copy next week

Fair enough matey.

[Team_Andromeda]

Your argument is: garbage sells so Sega should make garbage

Don’t be silly that is not what I said or think at all… You came out with a wide sweeping statement that only quality sells,I just made the point that it doesn; also that developers and people don’t set out to make rubbish or buy rubbish, only that it happens from time to time.

So? It got the investment it needed to be great, and it paid off.

Yeah, but not cutting corners, but buy lavishing quite lot of money on it’s production . So on this issue and the notion that all developers will spend the minimal possible isn’t always true

Business will only invest what it has to invest, and will invest the barest minimum to see more profits

You just being so silly Duke . When you go shopping do you spend lavishly all the the time, or do you now and gain spend the bare min you can get away with. And no Business will sometimes take huge risks and borrows what is simply doesn’t have (ie cash) to try and turn it around

It’s nice not being forced to upgrade for a while, but sooner or later, we’ll want better graphics etc, and more investment into gameplay.

I really don’t think PC nut upgrade their PC for MMO games. It’s that more to do with a new FPS games out like Half Life II, Doom III, Crysis or now BattleField III - Those are more games that push GFX cards sales imo.

I’m not buying garbage or mediocrity when a multi-billion dollar corporation can simply do better, and neither should you.

I simply don’t see Virutal Tennis IV, Yakuza IV, Val or PSO as garbage at all

No one cares about Sega in the mainstream gaming sense because Sega isn’t relevant like the other big publishers are

What you really should be saying is the old guard SEGA fans no longer care much for SEGA (on that score you’re right), for the casual or the mainstream with no fixed loved of a corp it’s much different and that is why SEGA is able to post decent sales in retail and digital form

Because people buy those games. No one is forcing them to buy anything.

What is this silly notion of being forced ?. We leave in a free capitalist society not in a communism sate. We are free to buy and own what we want. That doesn’t change the fact that sometimes people buy and quite like rubbish (or what some may class as rubbish)

Competition was good for EA and its soulless greed, but it’s come this far and is still a big name.

You’re changing the goal posts . I’m simple saying EA have over the last few years lost billions, that is a fact . So what you said about EA being very good at making money wasn’t true.

[Geoffrey]

Don’t be silly that is not what I said or think at all… You came out with a wide sweeping statement that only quality sells,I just made the point that it doesn; also that developers and people don’t set out to make rubbish or buy rubbish, only that it happens from time to time.

Quality does sell. If you want to argue that the best selling games at the moment aren’t quality, go ahead. They may not be perfect but they are good quality, otherwise they would not be where they are.

I said that if people buy rubbish, then publishers will keep making rubbish.

Yeah, but not cutting corners, but buy lavishing quite lot of money on it’s production . So on this issue and the notion that all developers will spend the minimal possible isn’t always true

When the minimum has to be so high because we want better, everyone wins. It’s called investing as much/as little as necessary because it is someone else’s money being risked.

If more is necessary then it will be invested, like we saw when EA bought the NFL rights. They would not have done it if there wasn’t any competition.

You just being so silly Duke . When you go shopping do you spend lavishly all the the time, or do you now and gain spend the bare min you can get away with. And no Business will sometimes take huge risks and borrows what is simply doesn’t have (ie cash) to try and turn it around

You’re not really listening. When games cost so much to make, no one will invest more than they have to invest. What we see is a ruthless business model at work. Doing more with less to net more profits.

Businesses HAVE TO grow. They are built on growth otherwise they lose perceived value.

I simply don’t see Virutal Tennis IV, Yakuza IV, Val or PSO as garbage at all

Neither do I if their production values are good.

What you really should be saying is the old guard SEGA fans no longer care much for SEGA (on that score you’re right), for the casual or the mainstream with no fixed loved of a corp it’s much different and that is why SEGA is able to post decent sales in retail and digital form

It’s just another soulless money making wannabe machine now with very little identity apart from Sonic.

Sega means very little to real gamers apart from nostalgia, and doesn’t have the same brand recognition as the rest.

That doesn’t change the fact that sometimes people buy and quite like rubbish (or what some may class as rubbish)

That doesn’t mean that we have to buy it or justify it.

If Blizzard made Sonic 2006 or the Golden Axe remake both games would have infinitely better or scrapped.

You’re changing the goal posts . I’m simple saying EA have over the last few years lost billions, that is a fact . So what you said about EA being very good at making money wasn’t true.

EA has been more successful and is still far more in consumer consciousness than Sega. More people would think more highly of FF than Sega. That’s the diffrence between being relevant and irrelevant. Sega is not leading anything.

[Parn]

EA acquiring Bioware was one of the most brilliant moves the company ever made. SWTOR has been a huge investment for EA, but the payoff is going to totally be worth it this December.

No one cares about Sega. It’s pretty sad when the most exciting thing to happen from the company is the possibility of a decent Sonic game.

[Team_Andromeda]

If you want to argue that the best selling games at the moment aren’t quality, go ahead

That’s if you really want to class the likes of Duke , Dance 2 ECT as quality games . I could just say the same thing and while you’ll might not like them Sonic Colors, Yakuza IV, Virtual Tennis are quality games (or of decent quality)

But that is going away from your point that ‘only’ quality games sell

[quote] like we saw when EA bought the NFL rights. They would not have done it if there wasn’t any competition.
[/quote]

? That investment wasn’t in the quality of the product but in the rights . Madden in everyday is worst that the benchmark quality of ESPN 2k 5.

I’m on about when a developer spends millions on the actual game it’s self and there’s been quite a few times where the developer has lavished millions on a new IP and at a huge risk to the company profits .

When games cost so much to make, no one will invest more than they have to invest.

?. That doesn’t hold true to all games . Rockstar spent millions on Redead and the risk paid off, they’re spent more than what they should have on LA Noire and I’m not sure if that risk paid off for the developer .

Neither do I if their production values are good.

That makes no sense . The production vales of all the Sonic games is massive, that doesn’t mean they’ll be a quality product at the end of it.

Sega means very little to real gamers apart from nostalgia

SEGA never really meant much to gamers other than in the Mega Drive Period

If Blizzard made Sonic 2006 or the Golden Axe remake both games would have infinitely better or scrapped.

Blizzard is one division. lets remember that the same company made and released Tony Hawks Ride .

EA has been more successful and is still far more in consumer consciousness than Sega.

EA hasn’t been able to post a profit in years that is a fact

[Geoffrey]

But that is going away from your point that ‘only’ quality games sell

They will sell more than garbage, but like I said, it’s a vital ingredient to success.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]? That investment wasn’t in the quality of the product but in the rights . Madden in everyday is worst that the benchmark quality of ESPN 2k 5.

I’m on about when a developer spends millions on the actual game it’s self and there’s been quite a few times where the developer has lavished millions on a new IP and at a huge risk to the company profits .[/quote]

Yeah so they invested the bare minimum into their product to make as much money as possible. Point proven with their genius business model of being able to sell the same game every year.

New investment happens because it has to happen to make IPs distinguish themselves or beat the competition. It’s not done out of the kindness of anyone’s hearts. Money makes it all happen.

?. That doesn’t hold true to all games . Rockstar spent millions on Redead and the risk paid off, they’re spent more than what they should have on LA Noire and I’m not sure if that risk paid off for the developer .

Success gives some people more freedom, otherwise see above.

That makes no sense . The production vales of all the Sonic games is massive, that doesn’t mean they’ll be a quality product at the end of it.

So where was the quality control in Sonic 2006? Whether people buy it or not is irrelevant because they’d be buying a game that should simply be better.

SEGA never really meant much to gamers other than in the Mega Drive Period

It’s nice to know that they don’t care about gamers then. Some successful publishers listen to us.

Blizzard is one division. lets remember that the same company made and released Tony Hawks Ride .

Blizz is separate still as far as IPs go. And Blizz has a huge, huge fanbase.

Even if you go back in time to the Starcraft days, some of the custom campaigns were dev quality.

EA hasn’t been able to post a profit in years that is a fact

EA is still relevant. As in, EA actually has an impact on gaming as a whole. I don’t even like EA, but you’d have to be blind to not recognize its success.

[Team_Andromeda]

[quote]They will sell more than garbage, but like I said, it’s a vital ingredient to success.
[/quote]

Not always , can you explain why the likes of Duke Nukem Forever (which in most cases reviewed worst than Sonic 06) or utter trip like Zumba Fitness sold so well.

Yeah so they invested the bare minimum into their product to make as much money as possible

I’ll hardly say spending some 400 million dollars just on rights is the bare minimum.

Success gives some people more freedom,

It wasn’t long ago Rockstar we seen as GTA and ntothing else, never mind that for most of this generation the TakeTwo group have been posted massive losses. It was a risk

So where was the quality control in Sonic 2006

The same place it was for Tony Hawks Ride or Activsion new X-Men: Destiny (which is getting panned in reviews ) Seems SEGA is a lot like Activision.

Some successful publishers listen to us.

That is up for debate .

Blizz is separate still as far as IPs go

Oh C’Mon they’re now the same corp just like with Rockstar and Take Two

EA is still relevant.

Never said otherwise . You just talked about profit, which EA haven’t been able to post in years .

but you’d have to be blind to not recognize its success.

I have on this very board praised and defended EA

[Geoffrey]

Not always , can you explain why the likes of Duke Nukem Forever (which in most cases reviewed worst than Sonic 06) or utter trip like Zumba Fitness sold so well.

Show me some garbage that is as popular as say COD, and sells all the time nonstop.

You keep missing the point.

Quality > garbage. From both a sales and being good for gaming point of view.

The garbage sells because people buy it. It’s their fault for tolerating it when they could say no to force a better product. Maybe they enjoy the garbage, but that’s still bad for gaming.

You want people to keep making garbage? Even if it sells, it’s still crap. Is that what you want as a Sega fan? Honestly?

I’ll hardly say spending some 400 million dollars just on rights is the bare minimum.

Again, they had to do it. If they didn’t HAVE TO do it, they wouldn’t have, happily making more money in the process.

It wasn’t long ago Rockstar we seen as GTA and ntothing else, never mind that for most of this generation the TakeTwo group have been posted massive losses. It was a risk

People with good track records tend to get more investment.

The same place it was for Tony Hawks Ride or Activsion new X-Men: Destiny (which is getting panned in reviews ) Seems SEGA is a lot like Activision.

It’s just a money making machine. Some publishers are better at it because they have to compete for a marketshare by delivering games that reach more people and stay in their consciousness. You can’t do that just by selling garbage that destroys your brand.

They will sell whatever you are prepared to buy, good or bad or somewhere inbetween. The power is in the hands of the consumer.

Oh C’Mon they’re now the same corp just like with Rockstar and Take Two

They have different approaches. The only bad game Blizz ever tried to make was Starcraft Ghost and it was scrapped. Whereas the Sega of today would have released it.

I have on this very board praised and defended EA

Sega could be way better. Making excuses for them won’t help to do that. EA has recognizable IPs and a great track record and tons of name recognition. Sega doesn’t outside Japan.

I don’t know why you had to downplay EA to make Sega look better when both are worthy of criticism, but at least EA is still alive, even if it has no soul whatsoever.

[Team_Andromeda]

Show me some garbage that is as popular as say COD, and sells all the time nonstop.

Again Duke you’ve moved the goal post and changed your tune. You orginially made out garbage doesn’t sell, that it a different point to not sell as much . To some (a few on here) COD is utter garbage for added inrony.

All I will say is Black Ops was the worst COD I played in years and it went on to sell the best .

Again, they had to do it.

No EA didn’t have too at all. Madden was selling way better than it’s one and only rival (ESPN). And since the deal EA been losing billions, so they’re not happy making money at all

People with good track records tend to get more investment

Rockstar track record this gen was losing millions up until a couple of years back.

It’s just a money making machine.

So it’s ok for Activsion to do it, just not SEGA ?. In both cases I bet Quailty control and the Bug Team listed most of the flaws and bugs with the games , but corps like games to make certin dates not matter what and so the Teams aren’t given the time to fix the issues .

Whereas the Sega of today would have released it.

SEGA have scrapped the odd bad game and don’t kid your self that Activsion hasn’t or wouldn’t release a bad game and now Activsion and Blizz or the same not matter if you don’t like it.

I don’t know why you had to downplay EA to make Sega look better

I’m not, you talked of profit :I simply pointed out that EA hasn’t posted profit in years, you talked of quality:I just pointed out that EA it’s self as milked brands and released sub par games.

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Again Duke you’ve moved the goal post and changed your tune. You orginially made out garbage doesn’t sell, that it a different point to not sell as much . To some (a few on here) COD is utter garbage for added inrony.

All I will say is Black Ops was the worst COD I played in years and it went on to sell the best . [/quote]

Garbage doesn’t keep selling or sell as much.

Quality (in terms of polish and gameplay and giving people what they want) always beats it in the end.

You want people to keep making garbage? I don’t even know why you are arguing this point unless you just accept that multi-billion dollar corporations have to make garbage to survive. Mass market is one thing. Trash is quite another.

No EA didn’t have too at all.

They felt they had to monopolize to protect their market. They even said so. If there was no competition they would have saved themselves a lot of money.

Rockstar track record this gen was losing millions up until a couple of years back.

Now you want to argue that the creators of GTA aren’t successful.

So it’s ok for Activsion to do it, just not SEGA ?. In both cases I bet Quailty control and the Bug Team listed most of the flaws and bugs with the games , but corps like games to make certin dates not matter what and so the Teams aren’t given the time to fix the issues .

It’s not ok for anyone to make garbage. That was my point all along.

You are making excuses for multi-billion dollar corporations again.

I’m not, you talked of profit :I simply pointed out that EA hasn’t posted profit in years, you talked of quality:I just pointed out that EA it’s self as milked brands and released sub par games.

Yeah they have (I don’t defend that even though that’s BUSINESS) but their quality control has at least been there consistently more often than not, otherwise it wouldn’t be the big name that it is, and they are still relevant in the games industry. You keep missing those points.

EA is better than Sega. It’s that simple. If we compare both publishers records over the last decade, Sega is just nothing in the minds of gamers, mainstream or otherwise.

[Team_Andromeda]

I don’t even know why you are arguing this point unless you just accept that multi-billion dollar corporations have to make garbage to survive.

No Duke that is not what I’m saying . You said garbage doesn’t sell , I simply pointed out it does .

Now I believe no games company, no film company or no record company sets out to make a bad product at all, but sometimes it happens and sometimes one man treasure is another man’s garbage.
Don’t kid your self I like buying garbage or like or want SEGA to make garbage

All I will say is some of my all time fav games have been panned in the press and on boards Ninja Blade being a classic example

They felt they had to monopolize to protect their market

I don’t think Madden was ever in any danger of being old sold by ESPN at all imo.

Now you want to argue that the creators of GTA aren’t successful

That is not what I’m said at all. Just that the publisher for most of this generation as been lossing millions and subject to takeovers ECT.

It’s not ok for anyone to make garbage. That was my point all along

You said you wanted SEGA to be more like Activision , which it’s self has an history of releasing unfinished games

but their quality control has at least been there consistently more often than not, otherwise it wouldn’t be the big name that it is

Most of the companies around now like Capcom, SEGA, Konami wouldn’t still be here unless they’re have their markets and making profits . They might not be as big, but that’s another issue

EA is better than Sega. It’s that simple. If we compare both publishers records over the last decade

This gen with out any doubt, christ on this board I’ve said Fromsoft, Capcom have put SEGA to shame, that’s not to say SEGA haven’t brought out some quality games or hasn’t got some good games coming
And if we’re talking of the last decade Space Channel 5 Pt 2, REZ, Orta, JSRF, SEGA GT 2002, ESPN 2k5, Shenmue II are just something else , better than almost anything that’s come from EA in that time period (bar the DICE stuff)

[Geoffrey]

No Duke that is not what I’m saying . You said garbage doesn’t sell , I simply pointed out it does .

You’re using that as an excuse to justify people making bad games which is bad for gaming.

I said that quality sells and will outsell garbage, and that garbage sells because people are willing to buy it.

If you want to accept it as unchangeable go ahead. You won’t see another The Matrix if people aren’t forced to compete for marketshare by simply being better in every way imaginable.

Now I believe no games company, no film company or no record company sets out to make a bad product at all…

Come on. You don’t honestly believe that. If they can get away with selling you something not brought up to a proper standard knowing it will sell anyway, they will. It’s called minimum investment until we, the consumer, aren’t prepared to tolerate it.

Daytona = rushed. KOTOR 2 = unfinished to be released for Christmas with no extra patching.

Etc. Both those games had guaranteed markets so would sell regardless.

If you will buy it, they will sell it. Business is business. It’s not trying to be noble.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]but sometimes it happens and sometimes one man treasure is another man’s garbage.
Don’t kid your self I like buying garbage or like or want SEGA to make garbage

All I will say is some of my all time fav games have been panned in the press and on boards Ninja Blade being a classic example [/quote]

There is no greater teacher than failure to force you to wake up.

I don’t think Madden was ever in any danger of being old sold by ESPN at all imo.

They bought the rights to monopolize the market. They didn’t want to have to compete more.

That is not what I’m said at all. Just that the publisher for most of this generation as been lossing millions and subject to takeovers ECT.

That’s really shallow way to win an argument instead of looking at the bigger picture. EA and Sega are worlds apart in terms of brands, success, resilience, and what they can invest. You ask any casual or mainstream gamer, and you’ll hear EA before you will ever hear Sega.

That’s tragic.

You said you wanted SEGA to be more like Activision , which it’s self has an history of releasing unfinished games

That’s people’s own fault for buying them, remember? Your argument. We could compared COD to Sonic 2006 if you want.

Most of the companies around now like Capcom, SEGA, Konami wouldn’t still be here unless they’re have their markets and making profits . They might not be as big, but that’s another issue

Japan.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]This gen with out any doubt, christ on this board I’ve said Fromsoft, Capcom have put SEGA to shame, that’s not to say SEGA haven’t brought out some quality games or hasn’t got some good games coming
And if we’re talking of the last decade Space Channel 5 Pt 2, REZ, Orta, JSRF, SEGA GT 2002, ESPN 2k5, Shenmue II are just something else , better than almost anything that’s come from EA in that time period (bar the DICE stuff)[/quote]

Sega died with the Dreamcast. All the vision and integrity ended there. Sega could have been known for something, like Nintendo is known for quality. Instead we have to wait a decade for a good Sonic game.

Let’s be realistic for once and stop seeing redeeming qualities in games that can be better.

[Team_Andromeda]

You’re using that as an excuse to justify people making bad games which is bad for gaming.

No I’m not and no developer sets out to make a truly bad game, no developer at all .

Come on. You don’t honestly believe that.

Well it’s true No company sets out to make a bad product

Daytona = rushed. KOTOR 2 = unfinished to be released for Christmas with no extra patching

Poor examples because both games were very playable and it wasn’t R&D reasons why the games weren’t quite finished , but lack of time given to developer - that is a different argument.

Both those games had guaranteed markets so would sell regardless

I don’t think Daytona USA sold that well on the Saturn myself.

There is no greater teacher than failure to force you to wake up

It’s true to say you learn best from your mistakes.

That’s really shallow way to win an argument

No Duke, I’m simply stating the facts of the matter.

You ask any casual or mainstream gamer, and you’ll hear EA before you will ever hear Sega.

Like I ever made out otherwise ?. Ask more gamers their fav FPS and it be COD of doubt - That to me doesn’t make it the best, or that other companies don’t make great games.

Your argument

It’s not my argument at all. I simply made the point that companies which you list have made/released unfinished games and in same cases poor games.

Japan.

To companies like Capcom, Konami the West is their biggest market.

Sega died with the Dreamcast

SEGA was dead after the Mega Drive, if you want to bring in mass market games and asking gamers on the street. Thanks to the PS and PS2 most gamers didn’t care for SEGA at all, that’s why the DC was dead to most before it even made it out

So Please don’t come it on that one Duke.

Sega could have been known for something, like Nintendo is known for quality.

Quality?. NCL Wii Line up is sub bar Mario Galaxy and Zelda and MarioKart series on the consoles as gone downhill as much as Sonic -
All I will say about a NCL games is it’s never shipped with Bugs or a buggy game engine that does’t meant it’s a quality or AAA product

Let’s be realistic for once and stop seeing redeeming qualities in games that can be better

Sigh … What was the last SEGA game you played, do you even play a PS3 or 360 these days ?. I’ve listed my issues with Yakuza III/IV but that’s no to say they’re bad games at all, Virutal Tennis IV is a quality game in every debt so is Val, VF 5 and I quite liked Colours and Unleashed.

My fanboy days are over these days I’m more have playing Capcom, Ubisoft products but that isn’t to say SEGA don’t make games I like to play these days.

[Geoffrey]

No I’m not and no developer sets out to make a truly bad game, no developer at all .

Poor examples because both games were very playable and it wasn’t R&D reasons why the games weren’t quite finished , but lack of time given to developer - that is a different argument.

But you just said that no one sets out to make a bad game. Here they did by not giving enough time.

It was deliberate. The result is the same. We shouldn’t stand for it and neither should you.

I don’t think Daytona USA sold that well on the Saturn myself.

It had the console to itself so was going to sell something. It was terribly rushed and gave the Saturn a bad name when the arcade game was awesome. But you know what? I got my perfect version of Daytona on the Dreamcast anyway. 5 years too late but better late than never!

It’s not my argument at all. I simply made the point that companies which you list have made/released unfinished games and in same cases poor games.

Let’s make this simple then. Who is better? EA or Sega? Activision or Sega? Blizzard or Sega? Hell let’s compare the publisher to devs as well. BioWare or Sega?

Which are better for gaming these days?

To companies like Capcom, Konami the West is their biggest market.

No one cares about Sega. Capcom and Konami and Square adjusted to the west a bit, but we’re still waiting for a truly excellent Sonic game.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]SEGA was dead after the Mega Drive, if you want to bring in mass market games and asking gamers on the street. Thanks to the PS and PS2 most gamers didn’t care for SEGA at all, that’s why the DC was dead to most before it even made it out

So Please don’t come it on that one Duke.[/quote]

No the balance was good with the DC. It had lots of arcade ports and tons of support from western devs. And it had a great Sonic game as well.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Quality?. NCL Wii Line up is sub bar Mario Galaxy and Zelda and MarioKart series on the consoles as gone downhill as much as Sonic -
All I will say about a NCL games is it’s never shipped with Bugs or a buggy game engine that does’t meant it’s a quality or AAA product [/quote]

You’re the one who says that people will buy garbage. In this case, it’s quality garbage. Nintendo is still feeding demand. But it’s irrelevant because Nintendo is still actually around, and those Fire Emblem games were actually not bad either.

Sigh … What was the last SEGA game you played, do you even play a PS3 or 360 these days ?. I’ve listed my issues with Yakuza III/IV but that’s no to say they’re bad games at all, Virutal Tennis IV is a quality game in every debt so is Val, VF 5 and I quite liked Colours and Unleashed.

Imagine what Sega could make. A true Shining Force game. A Panzer Dragoon RPG. Sonic games that are actually such huge sellers that every gamer can’t wait to play the next one. A mass market Shenmue.

There is such a thing as making calculated risks.

Instead Sega wallow in mediocrity and invest the bare minimum to supply shallow demand. We got Shadow the Hedgehog and a port of SA to the GC with even worse drops in frame rate. Maybe one day Sega will mean something again. The only place Sega is forced to compete decently is Japan. VC was very very good I have to say.

It actually frustrates me how in this recession companies will sell less for more in order to maintain record profits, but that’s how business works and why you have to just let garbage fail. WoW lost 900k subs this year because there was literally nothing to do when you reached the end game. Now THAT hurts and forces people to wake up. Not hoping things will get better when it is all BUSINESS.

[Team_Andromeda]

It was deliberate. The result is the same. We shouldn’t stand for it and neither should you

It’s not that simple and you know it . There’s various reasons why a game is rushed out to market

It had the console to itself so was going to sell something

Silly that’s like saying Tama or Gale racer should have sold as well as VF because they had the Saturn to them self’s for their respective gene’s . Daytona USA sold on the back of it’s Arcade name really

But you know what? I got my perfect version of Daytona on the Dreamcast anyway

But you know what it wasn’t perfect . The AI was changed so was the handling, so was the textures - in all those area’s the Saturn version is much closer to the Arcade than the DC version.
You want a Arcade perfect version ?, buy it right now on XBLA or PSN.

It was terribly rushed and gave the Saturn a bad name when the arcade game was awesome

I got news for you Duke, almost all launch games or early titles are rushed out , not just by SEGA but by all the major corps on more or less every console ever made.

Who is better? EA or Sega? Activision or Sega? Blizzard or Sega? Hell let’s compare the publisher to devs as well. BioWare or Sega

All subjective and utterly pointless . If you must know I’m not a fan of PC gaming at all (said that till I’m blue in the face on this board) so Blizzard means nothing to me , and this gen I’ve enjoyed Ubisoft games more than any other developer/publisher .

OK ?

No one cares about Sega. Capcom and Konami and Square adjusted to the west a bit, but we’re still waiting for a truly excellent Sonic game

SEGA sales say otherwise and imo Sonic Colors was a truly excellent Sonic game, but again it’s all subjective , people bash RE 5 and I thought it was great myself and that Code Veronica is way better than Part IV.

No the balance was good with the DC. It had lots of arcade ports and tons of support from western devs

Really ? Where was EA , Codemasters on the DC Duke ? and the DC had minimal support from most western developers . You go on about the DC, but look over how it too had poor and rushed games from SEGA - SEGA Rally II rushed out and unfinished and the likes of Virtual Athlete utter tripe .
In many area’s be that Arcade ports, Sports games, FPS’s the Saturn had the better line up , but again it’s all subjective

But it’s irrelevant because Nintendo is still actually around

Yeah but its losing Marketshare making losses and horrible mishandled the 3DS . To the real gamer (since you like them so much) The main gamer now cares little for NCL - because they like to play their COD, Fifa, GTA 5 On-Line and in HD with a board range of games out each month, Area’s NCL is hopelessly behind SONY and MS
I could also point out that SEGA is still around and those Yakuza game aren’t too bad , you know :P.

[quote]Imagine what Sega could make. A true Shining Force game. A Panzer Dragoon RPG. Sonic games that are actually such huge sellers that every gamer can’t wait to play the next one. A mass market Shenmue.
[/quote]

Imagine if you actually played Valkyria There a game that’s every bit as well made and well produced as any of Shinning Force games, imagine if you actually played VT III, IV, Yakuza IV, III, VF 5, Phantasy Star Portable, Sonic Colors you might actually see that even SEGA is still capable of making a quality product

There is such a thing as making calculated risks

Really . Shenmue 1 and II cost SEGA 70 million to make and took a team of over 200 people (in the non High Def era) only to sell 1.5 odd million copies world wide on 2 different consoles .
The man power and Team needed to make a Shenmue III would be huge cost SEGA millions and would be lucky to break the million sales barrier
Shining Force ? Well looking over the market for a strategy RPG isn’'t really there, until Camerlot come back to the table it’s pointless has no-one will class it as a ‘True’ Shinning game
Panzer Dragon Saga II - I think it a bit pointless as Saga did it’s job story wise and to me SEGA should have make a sequel to Skies using the Canvas engine .

[Al3xand3r]

There are current generation games of much larger scope that cost similar to Shenmue, rather than many, many times more than that. Such as Bethesda and Rockstar titles. That SEGA completely fucked up development once doesn’t mean any such game WILL be that costly to make. In the end they were short adventure games with heavy attention to detail and a lot of the costs, other than fucking up and making the games twice, was because that level of 3D visuals, animation, details and scope was unprecedented and heading into uncharted territories. That is not the case any more and a Shenmue III following the formula of the first games (rather than trying to become some open sandbox like GTA or something) would be considered a much simpler game by both players and developers, relying on the scenario more than any other element, again, much like adventure games. Imo, of course. And if it was deemed necessary, I don’t think players would even mind losing portions of that obsessive detail (such as using many big name actors or being able to pick up every little thing and examine it, first person looking around would be enough) if it meant they could get to see Ryo’s journey reach the end. Not that I think it would even be necessary with newer technologies meaning that even super low budget independent developer games like “Amnesia: The Dark Descent” allow you to pick up and look at every little object that’s actually modelled. Physics, yay!

And erm, the Dreamcast Daytona is far, far superior to the arcade original, technically. That you personally didn’t like some elements (I didn’t like the style of the car shines myself) doesn’t make the original better, just different. The AI had changes even between the 93 and 94 arcade versions and likely later iterations too. In the end Daytona USA 2001 wasn’t sold as a port of the arcade anyway, it was a new game, and a great one at that. Faulting it for “changing” the textures or whatever single element was developed for that new game from the ground up to much higher specifications than the original arcade game is pretty damn stupid. It’s not your favorite and that’s that, but that doesn’t make it objectively or technically inferior in any way whatsoever. It was on par with the SEGA of old, it’s not like every game they made was “the best” (nobody is missing Daytona USA 2 in such discussions for example) but they had a relatively consistent level of quality. I don’t see what Saturn being too weak for Daytona says.

SRPGs like Disgaea and Fire Emblem do well. The lessened audience has more to do with having less quality games of the type in the damn industry than anything else since companies like SEGA stopped making them. It’s not like they replaced the series with some mega popular new title to say “ok, it’s obvious they shouldn’t go back” or something. Especially when they found an avenue for similarly strategic games with the all things considered good sales of Valkyria Chronicles on PSP. You even mention that yourself, but only in conditions that you think suit your arguments.

Phantasy Star Portable games are tired retreads riding on the back of Monster Hunter making co-op fighting popular on PSP, rather than leading the industry forward like PSO.

And VF5, well, if SEGA stooped low enough to even fuck up a marginal iteration of a fighting game that’s barely changed since 2, that would be bad to say the least.

In the end the great in-house games are the exception for modern SEGA rather than the rule it used to be. Their mascot is a laughing stock ffs (and also has its good games being the exception rather than the rule, and no, Colors wasn’t amazing like fans would have you believe, it’s just not atrocious like most of the other titles).

As for Nintendo, a large portion of the losses are due to the failing dollar, they still have a pretty full warchest (that kept being filled until not long ago, so pretending one quarter or so means they’re doing shit like SEGA is funny) that can be used in times like this, and they’re far from the only games division to be making losses these days and their timing makes them appear worse off than they are considering they’re pretty much transitioning to a new generation of hardware so of course hardware and software sales aren’t going to be as high as during the peak of their last generation, even without considering the way they initially mishandled the 3DS launch (which was exaggerated considering its launch was better than the DS launch, launches tend to be slow, and they are quick to fix it in ways that led to increased hardware sales and will, likely, before the holidays and beyond them lead to higher software sales thanks to finally approaching so called “killer” apps). They most definitely aren’t going the way of SEGA as all their main franchises, save for perhaps Metroid due to ONE dud with Other M, are still both considered top tier and get millions of sales, some one or a few, some too many, so implying similarities to SEGA is stupid. Especially when Nintendo’s own troubles also have a lot to do with lacking third party support, while SEGA is a third party and all their issues are internal.

[Shelcoof]

Duke, i really can?t see why you still complain about Sonic.

I?ve played colors and its a really great Sonic game, actually to me its even better than Adventure.

And now Generations that delivers in all gameplay wise aspects.

Sonic is back, i really can?t see why people would say otherwise. What do you really want more from a Sonic game than what the 2 latest deliver? Fast pace action, precise platforming, multiple paths to explore, the “friends” are not annoying as they were, Sonic has a cool funny atitude, the jokes are good, little chubby Sonic is back and delivers platfoming just like the old ones.

And lets be honest, do you really expect Sonic to sell like hot bread? I mean, today its all about FPS games, platformers are a “thing of the past”, its all about shooting someone in the face today.

Unfortunatly.

[Al3xand3r]

Yeah, nobody buys platformers anymore and it just sucks…

That said I don’t think it’s sales that are a problem for Sonic, they keep making them for a reason, even when they suck… Of course that doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been a Mario caliber franchise had it been handled differently the last decade…