New Sonic game: Sonic Generations

[Team_Andromeda]

Yes, you said that. It’s completely irrelevant because a lot of that was fuck ups, not necessit

How ? Games that push the envelope take longer and always will have development troubles across the board, even good teams or an established genre can have difficulties too
Alan Wake millions and 5 years in development, GT 5 millions on 5 +plus years in development and god knows how much Square is spending on FF 13 X2

It happens.

you have much higher cost than a simple adventure game like Shenmue would take since, again, it’s a simple adventure game.

Again you missed the point . There you are on the one hand having a go at SEGA for not making the games they used to make or the quality levels of the old SEGA , but you want SEGA to make a bog stadard Shenmue now ?

Shenmue was about modelling a world to almost anal detail to the smallest thing, like fish in a pond. To do that for this generation would take millions and massive of manpower . if SEGA didn’t make Shenmue III with the same level of care and detail as it did for Shenmue 1 and II, you and Duke would have enough to say on the subject

And I don’t think GTA5 started out as a PS2 game and then was completely remade as a PS360 game and had all sorts of other management issues that inflated costs

It was not the fault of AM#2 that the Saturn market wasn’t their for the time they had planned to launch Shenmue and so the game had to be remade for another platform .

Its happens to a whole host of games on all different platforms . Lost Planet was meant to be a PS2 game, ICO to be a PS game, Grandia a Mega CD game , Heavily Sword a X-Box game , Ninja Gaiden a DC game and so it goes on ; Those are issues not just down to miss handled development, but market forces which are completely out of a developers control in most cases.

Making Shenmue twice didn’t add to the costs and therefor made them seem inflated compared to what a game with a smooth development cycle in a given generation rather than two would

Again !. You can not blame the development team for market forces where you planned platform market isn’t there any more and so development as to be switched to another platform . It happened to loads of games , and I doubt making the game twice added that much to the development costs .

The size of the Team and anal detail of the DC version of Shenmue is where the vast amount of money went really . I pretty sure that at the time of Zwei Panzer Dragoon Saga was SEGA most expensive game in development(and that was at the same time Shemmue was being made for the Saturn).

they aren’t pioneering a new system of their own with power beyond anything anyone ever saw

Again you just don;t get it . Its not about making a new ground breaking game at all , after all Shenmue came out after Omikron: The Nomad Soul which was one of the true 1st games of this time .
That’s not where the money went, it was on the anal detail of modelling a world to near perfection, even down to correct weather
Even into days generation shaders , that would be a massive effort and cost millions and a huge risk for any corp where the sequel on 2 different platforms sold less than 300,000 copies

Then people were stupid, how could a new game be at the same time an arcade perfect port of an old game

So Silly. If the original tracks and cars that were in Daytona USA 2001 played and handled like Model 2 Daytona USA they would have been no issues of problem at all and people would have put up with the new graphics extra courses ,but like Daytona USA CE (which suffered from the same issues as Daytona USA 2001) The fans really wanted to play the original Daytona in their home.

Daytona and you jumped in to say how it really wasn’t just because YOU didn’t like it

I simply said it was not Arcade perfect which it wasn’t in terms of AI, handling. That’s why people are so happy with Datona USA on the XBLA and PSN - Its Arcade perfect right down the handling and AI.

Only Feather kind of resembled them I guess, but not in content or quality.

No idea I’ve not played many of them or the Arcade version . I’m just pointing out they’re still being made and while some even review well, to most people until Camerlot make a Shinning game, it not be a true Shining game no matter the quality of the product.

They’re tired, boring retreads that ride on others’ bandwagons instead of leading the pack, because SEGA got sloppy

LOL jumping on ‘other’ people bandwagons is what the Japanese do, after all PSO is nothing more than Diablo for the consoles but hey… that doesn’t take away from the games quality, or that the PSO hand held games are well made games , and the new up coming PSO II looks brilliant.

When was this a contest?

No not until you came into the debate. I simply said that even the best of corps post losses , make bad games, make mistakes from time to time.

Who the fuck are you arguing with

Please stop with the swearing it doesn’t become you . I’m simply pointed out that NCL mishandle the 3DS launch, which NCL it’s self owned up too and where even Satoru Iwata-san took a 50% pay cut and said sorry after the 3DS troubles .

Simple facts of the matter .

[quote]Duke was saying that Nintendo has been doing good like SEGA should
[/quote]

That’s if you think NCL are making quality games these days, Take out Mario Galaxy and Zelda and they’re not and fast becoming old new for the console gaming masses these days while SONY and MS go forward

But like I said it’s all subjective

when you were speaking of success there, and MKWii has sold close to 30 million copies while Mario Kart DS sold over 20 million copies and Mario Kart 7

What this a school yards playground ? Since when did sales prove quality?. Next you be telling me GTA 5 is amazing, that COD is one of the best games ever made since they sell millions and millions and that the PS2 is the best home console ever made.

Now if you want to talk about the games them self’s . I think Mario Kart onthe home console are poor and NCL have more or less killed the Star Fox brand on the home console

as if Pilot Wings wasn’t a niche little experiment on N64 with something like a million sales or so

Not it was a sequel and launch title and one the best reviewing games of all time. I perfect example of quailty doesn’t always sell . To make out it’s a niche title is simply laughable due to sales.

Punch-Out, Excite, Kid Ikarus, Donkey Kong, Kirby, even freaking Sin & Punishment, as well as created insanely popular new IP in this gen

LOl. Donkey Kong been on most generation of machines in some shape of form and a lot of games from that list have been dormant only for one generation anyway . But hey I though NCL were known for originality, other than milking IP .

And at least we got Sin & Punishment 2 which is a brilliant game in the same genre.

Not make by NCL , but please carry on. What next SEGA made Bayonneta ?

How about bringing full quotes in context instead of off handed remarks that you remember the

No need . In the past when talking of the 360 having the better 3rd party support ect, you jumped in produced a list and even said I could play COD IV on the Wii (remember ?) going on about the wonderful sales of the Wii and its great 3rd party support . Now you’ve finally coming round to the real world, where the Wii is lacking 3rd party support and new games out each week at retail

No, that’s to most self proclaimed gamers like yourself that look down on anyone else and thus are looked down upon in return

Mate the 360 is more or less in the same price range as the Wii. How anybody can try and be superior I do not know. My issues with the Wii with the lame graphics, the lame 3rd party support , lame On-line and a joke of a controller.

Issues with as time as gone by have all become to clear and why NCL is rushed out the Wii- U to E3 .

[Al3xand3r]

Lol @ telling me off for saying they revived series that were “dormant” for only one generation (actually it was about 50/50 but anyway) when you yourself had JUST complained over series that have also only been “dormant” since the GameCube like 1080, Wave Race and F-Zero, and I was just replying to that. Neat.

PSO plays nothing like Diablo, not everything with a random loot system and dungeons (which, guess what, Diablo didn’t pioneer itself) is a clone.

Duke never said they’re not making Shining games, he said they’re not making Force games and he meant in the spirit of the series, not just the name. Bringing up that they make random shit using the Shining or even Force name, of which only ONE has been in the same genre, yet in a very detached way, isn’t an argument.

And again, Nintendo’s third party issues merely show how much better they’re doing on their own that they have managed all they have, which is the opposite of SEGA who are a third party themselves and all their issues are internal. But hey, it seems you’re not even discussing the topic anymore, you’re just going on your usual Nintendo rants. Lol.

Good to see what your main arguments amount to is “I only liked Super Mario Galaxy so Nintendo doesn’t make good games anymore”.

And imaginary development costs that don’t apply. Shenmue IS a bog standard adventure game, with the difference of having Virtua Fighter-esque battles (which often detracted from the experience but anyway) on top of the adventuring. You and I just happen to love it. I also love Beneath a Steel Sky. That doesn’t mean it also isn’t a bog standard adventure game or that I think a new Beneath a Steel Sky should take bajillions and be the most ground breaking game ever made. Since it wouldn’t even be Beneath a Steel Sky in that case. Same for Shenmue. Don’t be ridiculous.

And yes, a lot of that “anal” detail can be made far easier with newer technologies. Such as the different seasons that would just be dynamically created with snow falling and covering everything and the like instead of having different handcrafted versions.

Congrats for loving your 360 more than your mom, we get it by now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t games of value elsewhere. You’re merely acting like an idiot just because the Wii is obviously on its way out, as if I said it’s not. I still very recently got the best JRPG of the generation out of it, while it’s pretty much the only system to get retail-based full blown side scrolling platform games of consistently great quality, not just tiny budget indie or intended for digital distribution stuff (that I also love on my PC) and plenty other notable titles, first and second and third party, from Xenoblade to Sin & Punishment 2 that I can’t fathom how people who wish for StarFox never played to Another Code R and Monster Hunter Tri. I only pity people so blindfolded by fanboyism (or the opposite of that) they miss out on great things they could otherwise have loved.

But sure, keep pretending I’m some major Nintendo fanboy that doesn’t experience anything outside their systems, nevermind the 991 games on my Steam account, games on other services, retail or free, recent expansion to iOS platforms and the ease of access to systems I don’t own. Trust me, my gaming time never has been empty, every time I played a Wii game it was a choice to not give time to all these other things because it was worth it. That’s all I’m gonna say about it, it’s off topic and you’re hopeless.

[Team_Andromeda]

Whatever the reason is we shouldn’t buy it, nor should we feel sorry for multi-billion dollar publishers who can certainly invest more into their product

I buy games I like to play and sometimes I can put up with issues over being rushed out , like for Rally II, Datyona USA or Ninja Gadien II because the overall gameplay comes through.

As one of the handful of early games, yes it did have the console to itself. That’s a fact

And they sold pretty poor, which is my point

The DC version was just better. The handling wasn’t far from the arcade and it had a DC coat of polish. What it lacked was an online mode

It wasn’t the Arcade version in terms of AI and for the Daytona nuts- that was a let down, but not to say the game was bad in anyway.
BTW Daytona USA 2001 was On-Line in both JP and the USA, Blame that French baboon in charge of SOE at time for the total mess up for DC On-Line Europe.

Sega stopped caring about the Saturn when it was beyond the point of no return, but the beginning of the console’s life WAS the time to care

SEGA have a bit of an history of rushing games out for their consoles , but in terms of AI and handling the Saturn Am#2 port was closer to the Arcade version.

but not to the Saturn’s level.

I could make a list of games which run and looked quite poor on various consoles due to being rushed out . The Japanese PS2 lauch was worst than that of the Saturn , and RR V looked worst than Rally II on the DC

The Playstation’s launch titles were stunning for the time and really in tune with what the market wanted.

I take it we’re on about the Western launch?. Because in Japan the PS launch line up was lacking . I will admit RR looked amazing but had only 1 track and didn’t have to worry about handling 40 cars on track
And of coruse SONY only had one console to focus on, while the SEGA west wanted to focus on 32X and Saturn which was a hopeless plan.

You don’t want to acknowledge that Sega could be better as evidenced by how much more successful the other publishers have been.

Give me a break Duke. I made these points in the Yakuza thread and how I wanted SEGA to be more like Capcom with a great multi-purpose engine, games made for the West , multi platform ECT,ECT.

That doesn’t change the fact that SEGA now again makes some very good games

So I will just speak in the only language that people understand: relevance.

If you’re talking sales I’ll not disagree . If we’re talking games I’ve liked Ubisoft more this gen, than any other developer other than SONY

That’s a matter of taste but for the market it was reaching RE5 was good.

It’s all subjective. I’ve always thought RE 4 to be vastly overrated and not a patch on CV (which to me is the best in series) but most will no agree on that.

Compared to the Saturn, the DC had way better support outside Japan. Sega alienated EA by not making a console designed to last

SEGA Saturn had all the major 3rd parties backing it more so than the DC even. And Duke don’t be so silly no-one that makes a console knows before hand, that its’s going to be an amazing success story.

EA didn’t back SEGA for other reason, more do with EA not liking what SEGA was getting up with NFL2k and buying Visual Concepts.

The DC learned from that mistake. Christ, you even had a BioWare game: the best version of MDk2.

The DC had pretty poor support from most of the major 3rd parties . And we can all list the odd game … I’m mean Christ the Saturn even had a Westwood game .

Maybe. But if all they care about is money like all the rest

They all care about Money, which is why we’ll see endless sequels to VF, Moneyball, Football Manager, Sonic and yearly updates to Yakuza - they sell and make money its as simple as

Sega could make all those games if they wanted in affordable ways, especially nowadays

if SEGA made a cutdown version of Shenmue III you’ll be the 1st to moan about it and say SEGA is dead . As for Panzer Dragoon Saga II looking over the market for Panzer games was limited at best on the Saturn and X-Box days , the market for Japanese RPG games these days on the next gen machines is limited a best, never mind for a game with the niche appeal of Panzer .

And that’s what the higher ups and money men will you at . You know there’s a reason why EA is no longer making Road Rash, Wing Commander, Rock band, Desert Strike, Def Jam games any more , I doubt MS even with their billion in the bank is going to make sequels to Crimson Skies, Sudeki, Phantom Dust anytime soon …

So don’t go on about money, its not as simple as that .

[Team_Andromeda]

PSO plays nothing like Diablo

PSO is Diablo II in 3D on the consoles and everyone deep down knows it.

Lol @ telling me off for saying they revived series that were “dormant” for only one generation

I’m laughing at you because lots of games have been dormant for a generation or too before given another go . Hell SEGA are past masters at it when it comes Panzer, Shining Force, Ecco Phantasy Star, Shinobi

Duke never said they’re not making Shining games, he said they’re not making Force games and he meant in the spirit of the series, not just the name

I’m only pointing out, that SEGA is making Shining Force games and we had Shining games that played nothing like ‘Force’ games from Camelot too.
I think to most it’s not just the name, but the fact that it no be a true Shinning game until Camelot come back on board.

Bringing up that they make random shit using the Shining or even Force name, of which only ONE has been in the same genre, yet in a very detached way, isn’t an argument

And how do you know they’re shit ?. I seriously doubt you’ve played them all, much less the Arcade version

And again, Nintendo’s third party issues merely show how much better they’re doing on their own that they have managed all they have,

LOL. When I made the pint that NCL only makes consoles , controller with their games in mind and don’t really give a toss about 3rd party support in terms of tools and support ECT you have enough to say on the subject.

And imaginary development costs that don’t apply.

Nothing imaginary at all we all the famous development costs of Shenmue 1 and II, the fact that Yakuza (a PS2 title) cost SEGA over $25 million to make . These styles of games cost a lot of money to make

You and I just happen to love it

So wrong it’s untrue , I happen not to like Shenmue I found the game boring , overrated and dull . I did enjoy the sequel much more though.

Congrats for loving your 360 more than your mom,

Sigh… It’s like being in a school yard.

If there’s one person that’s got the hump and loves a machine it’s you . Dare anyone have a go at your beloved Wii or NCL. Unlike you, I’ll not get all nasty about it and bring family member into it

I still very recently got the best JRPG of the generation out of it, while it’s pretty much the only system to get retail-based full blown side scrolling platform games of consistently great quality, not just tiny budget indie or intended for digital distribution stuff (that I also love on my PC) and plenty other notable titles, first and second and third party, from Xenoblade to Sin & Punishment 2 that I can’t fathom how people who wish for StarFox never played to Another Code R and Monster Hunter Tri. I only pity people so blindfolded by fanboyism (or the opposite of that) they miss out on great things they could otherwise have loved.

Spoken like a true fanboy . Keep it up and unless you’ve owned all 3 systems and played each and every JRPG then you’ll can say which one is the best .

Still like the good fanboy you are, you’ll post threads of a Mistwalker game on the Wii a(funny how most of your threads are Wii related btw ) no such love for Mistwalker RPG’s on the 360? no such love for 360 or PS3 games … I wonder why ?.

You sad little pretence is fooling no-one , but by all means keep trying.

[Al3xand3r]

Lol @ seeing:

Lol @ telling me off for saying they revived series that were “dormant” for only one generation (actually it was about 50/50 but anyway) when you yourself had JUST complained over series that have also only been “dormant” since the GameCube like 1080, Wave Race and F-Zero, and I was just replying to that. Neat.

And quoting just the first sentence, completely avoiding the one obvious point made that ridiculed your argument. The rest of your post was similar drivel.

And I wasn’t pimping Mistwalker’s JRPG as my best of the generation, I was pimping Monolith Soft’s JRPG, Xenoblade. And yes, I’ve liked Monolith Soft since long before they were acquired by Nintendo as Xenogears on the PlayStation is one of my favorite JRPGs of all time. I’ve mentioned it many times here, before the Wii was even known, but you’ll probably find a way to make this about Nintendo fanboyism too. Hey, I didn’t even make a thread about Xenoblade, that big a fanboy I am because at one time I was excited for what Mistwalker/Sakaguchi himself were dicussing and doing which far surpassed anything they did for Blue Dragon (maybe they’re evil Nintendo fanboys like myself too!) which by the way has two iterations on Nntendo platforms, alongside other Mistwalker games I also never made TWOTA threads about or otherwise praised them.

I’ve yet to play Mistwalker’s Wii JRPG, it’s coming next year to Europe. And yes, though I wasn’t making this point at all, from everything I’ve seen I feel I’ll like it much better than Blue Dragon due to the modern Western RPG inspired direction that doesn’t cling on nostalgia as much (though the story is still the expected Final Fantasy-esque deal, it’s Sakaguchi after all). The combat system alone (that I’ve sampled) will make it better than most other JRPGs to me, and it actually shares some ideas with Xenoblade’s, although overall as an RPG it’s of a completely opposite design philosophy. But I guess your opinion has to be superior and factual and objective and void of fanboyism and me liking things you don’t and not liking things you do means I’m a super fanboy.

As for only posting about Nintendo games, no, I’ve probably made more posts in the free games thread I started here years ago (though there’s been less interest recently) than about Nintendo games. Of course that doesn’t mean I spend the most gaming time on those, it’s just something I felt like doing here at the time. Nevermind all the threads about PC and other platforms, from Avadon to Amnesia to Penumbra to The Witcher 2 to Metro 2033 to Cryostasis to Quake Live to Left 4 Dead to Portal to Eschalon: Book I and II to Puzzle Quest to Sins of a Solar Empire to The Last Guardian to Phantasy Star Portable (when I was excited for it) to Yakuza 3 to Guardian Heroes to Metal Gear Solid: PO to Oblivion to name a few. Nevermind countless games others made threads about yet I discussed equally or games I discussed in other more general threads about genres or likes or whatever else. Of course, TWOTA isn’t the only place I talk about video games so, no, I’m not only interested in things I’ve posted here. Still, I’ve probably discussed more non-Nintendo games than even you have around here so if all you see from me is Nintendo things, then I’m afraid you’re the one with the obvious Nintendo related issues.

It’s good to see you desperately fumbling to prove a point that exists only in your head.

[Draikin]

So, is anyone actually playing Sonic Generations? I ended up buying the game from Steam, seeing how it’s half (!) the price of the console version and most people seem to agree it’s the best version of the game. After playing the game a bit, the 2D sections are really what Sonic 4 should have been. The controls are still not up to the standard of the Megadrive/Genesis games but they’re close enough for it not to be a problem. The “modern” Sonic levels are more frustrating to play than they are fun, as usual. At least these are the “least broken” 3D Sonic levels I’ve played so far. The challenge levels ensure there’s a lot of replayability as well, with a ton of items to unlock. I think the average Metacritic score of 77% is about right, if only for the classic Sonic stages. I wouldn’t pay full price for the XBox360/PS3 version, but the PC version is certainly worth the investment.

[Geoffrey]

I buy games I like to play and sometimes I can put up with issues over being rushed out , like for Rally II, Datyona USA or Ninja Gadien II because the overall gameplay comes through.

I won’t tolerate badly rushed games from a giant company. If more people did that then the result would be better at giving us what we want.

And they sold pretty poor, which is my point

They were still rushed out, and in that case, too rushed.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]It wasn’t the Arcade version in terms of AI and for the Daytona nuts- that was a let down, but not to say the game was bad in anyway.
BTW Daytona USA 2001 was On-Line in both JP and the USA, Blame that French baboon in charge of SOE at time for the total mess up for DC On-Line Europe.[/quote]

We have to agree to disagree. The DC version was better than the arcade game in my mind and the minds of many. Even the arcade graphics were outdated by the time the DC arrived, so it needed the new coat of polish, and it was a beautiful game as a result with the same bouncy gameplay.

SEGA have a bit of an history of rushing games out for their consoles , but in terms of AI and handling the Saturn Am#2 port was closer to the Arcade version.

It could have been much better.

I could make a list of games which run and looked quite poor on various consoles due to being rushed out . The Japanese PS2 lauch was worst than that of the Saturn , and RR V looked worst than Rally II on the DC

Sony owned the market by then so could sell on brand recognition alone. Being forced to compete again was one of the best things that happened to Sony.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]I take it we’re on about the Western launch?. Because in Japan the PS launch line up was lacking . I will admit RR looked amazing but had only 1 track and didn’t have to worry about handling 40 cars on track
And of coruse SONY only had one console to focus on, while the SEGA west wanted to focus on 32X and Saturn which was a hopeless plan.[/quote]

The western launch wiped the floor with the Saturn.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Give me a break Duke. I made these points in the Yakuza thread and how I wanted SEGA to be more like Capcom with a great multi-purpose engine, games made for the West , multi platform ECT,ECT.

That doesn’t change the fact that SEGA now again makes some very good games [/quote]

Let’s hope they become more than a shadow of their former selves.

It’s all subjective. I’ve always thought RE 4 to be vastly overrated and not a patch on CV (which to me is the best in series) but most will no agree on that.

That is sadly a matter of taste. If hardcore gamers outnumbered casuals, we might see more puzzle-based games.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]SEGA Saturn had all the major 3rd parties backing it more so than the DC even. And Duke don’t be so silly no-one that makes a console knows before hand, that its’s going to be an amazing success story.

EA didn’t back SEGA for other reason, more do with EA not liking what SEGA was getting up with NFL2k and buying Visual Concepts.[/quote]

EA hated the fact that Sega wasn’t willing to make a console that could last. The DC was far more successful than the Saturn in the western world and did have good support. It was just more dev-friendly.

When the PS sold 100 million consoles, yes, Sony knew that the PS2 would be successful too. It had all the recognition it needed.

The DC had pretty poor support from most of the major 3rd parties . And we can all list the odd game … I’m mean Christ the Saturn even had a Westwood game .

You mean the worst version of C&C with the cut animations and missing extra levels which found their way into the PS version?

The DC was better. BETTER. It gave more people what they wanted apart from Japanese gamers who waited for the PS2 instead.

They all care about Money, which is why we’ll see endless sequels to VF, Moneyball, Football Manager, Sonic and yearly updates to Yakuza - they sell and make money its as simple as

Yeah so they can work for our money then. Don’t think you are doing a noble kind thing by buying garbage. Let the failures fail to become successes instead.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]if SEGA made a cutdown version of Shenmue III you’ll be the 1st to moan about it and say SEGA is dead . As for Panzer Dragoon Saga II looking over the market for Panzer games was limited at best on the Saturn and X-Box days , the market for Japanese RPG games these days on the next gen machines is limited a best, never mind for a game with the niche appeal of Panzer .

And that’s what the higher ups and money men will you at . You know there’s a reason why EA is no longer making Road Rash, Wing Commander, Rock band, Desert Strike, Def Jam games any more , I doubt MS even with their billion in the bank is going to make sequels to Crimson Skies, Sudeki, Phantom Dust anytime soon …

So don’t go on about money, its not as simple as that .[/quote]

If Sega made good quality games that reached both gamers and the mainstream, I could live with it. I doubt that is what they’d do though because Sega has no vision left. JRPGs are JRPGs. That’s their problem. Games can reach a lot more people than one insulated market.

EA is just ruthless about what demand it can supply, that’s all. It will cut loose anything not giving them the return they want.

[Shelcoof]

So, is anyone actually playing Sonic Generations? I ended up buying the game from Steam, seeing how it’s half (!) the price of the console version and most people seem to agree it’s the best version of the game. After playing the game a bit, the 2D sections are really what Sonic 4 should have been. The controls are still not up to the standard of the Megadrive/Genesis games but they’re close enough for it not to be a problem. The “modern” Sonic levels are more frustrating to play than they are fun, as usual. At least these are the “least broken” 3D Sonic levels I’ve played so far. The challenge levels ensure there’s a lot of replayability as well, with a ton of items to unlock. I think the average Metacritic score of 77% is about right, if only for the classic Sonic stages. I wouldn’t pay full price for the XBox360/PS3 version, but the PC version is certainly worth the investment.

I have to disagree, to me the mechanics of classic Sonic not only feel like the Megadrive days, i think they are better, for exemple beeing able to spin dash on the go.

Also, except for the boss fights, i find the modern levels a lot of fun, sometimes MUCH more fun than the classic Sonic like, for exemple, Planet Whisp, Rooftop Run, City Escape and…BLASPHEMY…Green Hill. Thats right, i find Generation?s Modern take on Green Hill the best version ever, even better than the original, i already lost the count to how many times i replayed that level

The levels i didn?t mention i prefer classic Sonic.

The Bosses are my biggest problem, except for Death Egg, all the other Boss fights are BORING, FLAWED and plain Frustrating.

The music is awsome overall.

Other than the bosses my only complaint is no Sonic CD level or Sonic 3D levels. I would love to see a modern take on Rusty Ruin (awsome music, reminds me of some sort of chuch songs type, don?t know the name) and Diamond Dust (incredible music and zone that reminds me of christmas for some reason, would be a perfect stage for this time of the year).

Also, i hope they bring back classic emerald Stages on the next games like the half pipes of Sonic 3D, beating Shadow to get a Emerald is too easy

Overall i think the Sonic cycle has clearly been broken, Colours was really good, Generations is great.

If they make a 2D only game next it has the potential to be perfect since, to me, classic Sonic is perfect or near perfect in this game.

If they make a 3D game with the Colours/Generations mechanics, they still need to fix the boss battles, there?s just too many flaws in those, but the modern stages themselves are near perfect, honestly, i?ve been playing SA2 the other day on my friends Dreamcast and the controls just feel much more broken than in Generations, simply put Generations is probably the best 3D Sonic ever, the only real competition to me is Colours.

[Team_Andromeda]

So, is anyone actually playing Sonic Generations? I ended up buying the game from Steam, seeing how it’s half (!) the price of the console version and most people seem to agree it’s the best version of the game. After playing the game a bit, the 2D sections are really what Sonic 4 should have been. The controls are still not up to the standard of the Megadrive/Genesis games but they’re close enough for it not to be a problem. The “modern” Sonic levels are more frustrating to play than they are fun, as usual. At least these are the “least broken” 3D Sonic levels I’ve played so far. The challenge levels ensure there’s a lot of replayability as well, with a ton of items to unlock. I think the average Metacritic score of 77% is about right, if only for the classic Sonic stages. I wouldn’t pay full price for the XBox360/PS3 version, but the PC version is certainly worth the investment.

I can’t believe how good and how spot on the 2D sections are, the enemy layout, level design are some of the best Sonic Team ever done.

This a quality game through out even the stage select screen is class. Quite obvious love, money and the will to make a quality SONIC game has been put into this game . Sonic Team are on a nice roll and seem to get what’s need to make a good 3D game an pretty amazing 2D game and give what the fans want … it all bolds well for the next game

[Team_Andromeda]

I won’t tolerate badly rushed games from a giant company.

Define what you mean by rushed ?. There’s many games that have been years in development that have issues and bugs but I wouldn’t really class as rushed as they’ve been years in development

Ninja Gaiden II was in development for over 2 and half years for example.

They were still rushed out, and in that case, too rushed

With the exception of Mario 64, Mario IV and Halo every launch game is rushed out . But I point out they had the Saturn market all to them self’s and didn’t sell great .

The DC version was better than the arcade game in my mind and the minds of many. Even the arcade graphics were outdated by the time the DC arrived, so it needed the new coat of polish, and it was a beautiful game as a result with the same bouncy gameplay

No real issues with the graphics in Daytona USA 2001 , I would have liked either a perfect version of Model 2 textures or Model 2 Step Daytona USA textures -so it was a letdown to me we didn’t get either .

When it came to AI, the game wasn’t close to the Arcade game and that’s what most of the Daytona USA nuts wanted we at last got that with Daytona USA on XBLA and PSN.

It could have been much better.

Gfx no doubt about it at all, but in gameplay terms it was spot on. Like I said before it was the making of AM#2 on the Saturn though, after that they went into overdrve and took the piss with their Saturn developments and making the Saturn sing. Virtual Cop and VF II were just amazing conversions give the gulf in specs, memory of the 2 system.

Sony owned the market by then so could sell on brand recognition alone

Like it should have with the PS3 . I could say to you that after Mega Drive SEGA could have thought and acted the same with the Saturn. So don’t come it Duke. The PS2 launch was really poor, so was the Saturn’s.

The western launch wiped the floor with the Saturn.

I agree, but we had SEGA west backing the hopeless 32X to blame for that. The X-Box launch line up wipped the floor with both the Cube and PS2 and let it sold the worse out of all the 3 respective console launch line ups

Let’s hope they become more than a shadow of their former selves

Well AM#2 are still class, Sonic Team/PSO are back on form and there’s hope the Yakuza Team are starting to get what it takes for next gen development . The other Teams I start to lose hope though

If hardcore gamers outnumbered casuals, we might see more puzzle-based games.

I think there do; when it comes to going into the shops and buying games every month .

EA hated the fact that Sega wasn’t willing to make a console that could last.

So why did they back the 32X. So talking so such silly talk . EA hated the fact that SEGA bought Visual Concepts from under EA noses and knew full well they would be a serious rival in the Sports market EA liked to call it own

[quote]The DC was far more successful than the Saturn in the western world and did have good support. It was just more dev-friendly.
[/quote]

If it was all about being developer friendly the DC Xbox , Cube, 360 would have killed the PS2 and PS3 in sales by a massive margin SONY would have been dead now , so don’t start the developer friendly rubbish

It were talking hardware sales then yes the DC did better in the West, if were talking developer support, then no the DC was didn’t do better at all .

Sony knew that the PS2 would be successful too. It had all the recognition it needed

Really . So what happened with the PS3 ?. Outsold by both the 360 and Wii .

You mean the worst version of C&C with the cut animations and missing extra levels which found their way into the PS version

LOl I was just saying we can list the odd PC developer. I don’t know who’s info you’re going on, but the Saturn version was a near spot on port of the PC classic and the only version to have CD audio

Seeing as the Saturn version was a timed exclusive I’ll expect extra to be put in other version that came latter - It happened with some Saturn ports ,even by EA Soviet Strike had extra’s, so did Dracula X, Resident Evil
That’s what tends to happens when a game comes out latter on another system

BETTER. It gave more people what they wanted apart from Japanese gamers who waited for the PS2 instead

Again its subjective - If you loved Football games the DC was utter rubbish, if you liked traditional shooter the DC was poor, if you loved FPS the DC was poor , if you loved RPG’s the DC was pretty poor if you loved VS fighter the DC was lacking,if you loved 3D shooter the Saturn was lacking. In all these genre’s the Saturn had better software imo.

Yeah so they can work for our money then.

Well since you don’t buy yakuza games, they’re not working for your money at all, and your money is not paying them . So on that point you’ve lost me…

And I don’t class Yakuza series as garbage at all .

If Sega made good quality games that reached both gamers and the mainstream, I could live with it

They do, but it’s Sonic Vs Mario. Quality doesn’t always sell as we’ve seen with JSRF - which to me was perfect and a game that had mass-market appeal written all over it …

It will cut loose anything not giving them the return they want.

I agree, so stop going on about wanting SEGA to make Panzer Dragoon Saga 2 or Shenmue III

[Team_Andromeda]

As for only posting about Nintendo games, no, I’ve probably made more posts in the free games thread I started here years ago (though there’s been less interest recently) than about Nintendo games

I said ‘most’ not all or every . Still I post good things about the Snes, the N64 and Mario Galaxy. Does that make me a fan of NCl now ?

but you’ll probably find a way to make this about Nintendo fanboyism too

I really don’t know why you try and pretend otherwise . It’s clear as day .

I was excited for what Mistwalker/Sakaguchi himself were dicussing and doing which far surpassed anything they did for Blue Dragon (maybe they’re evil Nintendo fanboys like myself too!) which by the way has two iterations on Nntendo platforms, alongside other Mistwalker games I also never made TWOTA threads about or otherwise praised them.

More fanboy talk I see …

[Draikin]

The Bosses are my biggest problem, except for Death Egg, all the other Boss fights are BORING, FLAWED and plain Frustrating.

These are definitely the weakest point of the game, a 2D approach to the boss levels could have fixed a lot of these problems. Then again, that goes for the entire game in my opinion.

After finishing the game (which doesn’t take that long) I’m disappointed in the second half of it. The level design in the 2D remakes of the modern Sonic stages just isn’t as good as the first three classic stages, the 3D levels don’t get any better and the boss fights go from mediocre to terrible. I guess it kind of fits the evolution of Sonic over the past 20 years.

If they take the same game engine and use it for Sonic 4 episode 2, they might manage to make a good game out of it. As for Modern Sonic, all I see is Sega trying to desperately patch the “modern” gameplay into something that’s somewhat playable. I don’t think they’ll ever succeed in ironing out all the problems with it. I know some people prefer this gameplay to the old 2D games, but I’m just not one of them and I doubt I’ll ever be.

[Al3xand3r]

I said ‘most’ not all

Yes, and I just proved it’s not “most” either. It’s right there. Your claims as usual were wrong, if not outright intentional lies. Realise it, get over it, find a new argument.

I really don’t know why you try and pretend otherwise. It’s clear as day.

Yeah, I liked Xenogears and mentioned that much in this forum before the Wii even existed because I’m a Nintendo fanboy (a fanboy which also never personally owned any of their other platforms, not even the DS, opting for a PSP instead). Right on. See above.

Edit: I like how you ignore the point made, that in fact I have proof of loving Monolith Soft long before they went to Nintendo, contrary to your accusations, to make another stupid point about platform ownership. Keep trying to distort reality, like a sad pathetic fool who pretends he doesn’t realise open minded people unlike himself play anything and everything whether they own the platforms for themselves or not, much like I played Orta and a million other games on platfrorms I never owned for personal use. It’s not like you own every Wii game ever made (or 10), yet you did make the claim that only Super Mario Galaxy is good on it just a few posts earlier. Double standards much? Try to keep up.

In fact, I’ve provided proof against every single point you’ve made about me being a fanboy, but instead of ever responding to said proof you divert attention to a new accusation or repeat the same drivel. It’s a cute strategy, if you’re 12.

More fanboy talk I see …

Uh, okay, lol. You claimed I pimped TLS because it’s a Mistwalker game for Nintendo and I don’t praise their non-Nintendo games because I’m a fanboy. And I just showed I’ve also not pimped the majority of Mistwalker’s current generation games which are actually on Nintendo platforms, proving I pimp only what interests me regardless of the first party involved, yet your conclusion is the same. Lol man. At least you’re consistent with trying to divert attention from your failing sad excuses for arguments not with any valid rational point but with childish accusations that derail the conversation. Keep it up.

Well that’s all the time you’ll get from me from now, see you when I’m up to dealing with you next, assuming you’re as amusingly desperate then as you were here.

Edit: now, I did misspell for now, but anyone other than you would have understood that instead of latch on a mistake to make another stupid point. Especially since if I did the same for you this thread would have turned into a junior English class.

Or maybe before that happens you’ll realise that people against your irrational ideas are merely against irrational ideas, they’re not fanboys. Nobody else here is being as crazy as you about any platforms and companies. If you weren’t having such strong feelings yourself, or if you had them for other companies as well as Nintendo, perhaps you’d have seen the same people defending other platforms from your bullshit too. I’ve been known to defend the PSP elsewhere after all. Alas only you are this type of person here and your focus is only Nintendo. Again, you’re the one with the problem, thinking one can’t like anything outside Super Mario Galaxy without being a fanboy.

Edit: at this point you’re metaphorically just running around with your fingers deep in your ears screaming “you’re a Nintendo fanboy” or “you’re a SEGA hater” depending on the situation and never actually responding to any of the points made, which you should regardless of what you think, or at least stop pretending you’re replying.

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Define what you mean by rushed ?. There’s many games that have been years in development that have issues and bugs but I wouldn’t really class as rushed as they’ve been years in development

Ninja Gaiden II was in development for over 2 and half years for example.[/quote]

As in could have and should have been better especially in technical departments since content is “subjective” when it could be made to please more people.

With the exception of Mario 64, Mario IV and Halo every launch game is rushed out . But I point out they had the Saturn market all to them self’s and didn’t sell great .

And again I will not tolerate badly rushed games. Halo was nowhere – NOWHERE – nearly as badly rushed as Daytona. The difference is like day and night.

You are just accepting rushed games as inevitable which may be the case but no one should buy games as rushed as Daytona was.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]No real issues with the graphics in Daytona USA 2001 , I would have liked either a perfect version of Model 2 textures or Model 2 Step Daytona USA textures -so it was a letdown to me we didn’t get either .

When it came to AI, the game wasn’t close to the Arcade game and that’s what most of the Daytona USA nuts wanted we at last got that with Daytona USA on XBLA and PSN. [/quote]

The DC version was better, graphically, and had more or less the same bouncy gameplay. Why are you even arguing this point? It was BETTER. It was the BEST home port of the game with vastly better more up to date graphics.

Now THAT is what I expect from a giant games publisher.

Gfx no doubt about it at all, but in gameplay terms it was spot on. Like I said before it was the making of AM#2 on the Saturn though, after that they went into overdrve and took the piss with their Saturn developments and making the Saturn sing. Virtual Cop and VF II were just amazing conversions give the gulf in specs, memory of the 2 system.

It should not have been rushed mainly because that hurt the Saturn’s image in a very real way. Not to mention it was a disappointment.

Like it should have with the PS3 . I could say to you that after Mega Drive SEGA could have thought and acted the same with the Saturn. So don’t come it Duke. The PS2 launch was really poor, so was the Saturn’s.

Yeah the PS2’s launch was poor and rushed but Sony already ruled the market so it didn’t matter. Sony could get away with it without strong competition to make the PS2 look bad for the whole world to see to force Sony to do a better job or risk losing marketshare, which they later did to MS. And rightly so.

I agree, but we had SEGA west backing the hopeless 32X to blame for that. The X-Box launch line up wipped the floor with both the Cube and PS2 and let it sold the worse out of all the 3 respective console launch line ups

Come on. The Xbox arrived in a market where most players were content with their PS2s and the huge support the PS2 was receiving already.

Now let’s compare the 360 launch with the PS3 one. The 360 outdid the PS3 at every turn, but Sony have held a big chunk of the market thanks to outstanding first party games.

That’s great for gaming.

I think there do; when it comes to going into the shops and buying games every month .

Sadly, non gamers outnumber us probably by about 8/9:2. You can clearly see this if you play a game like WoW. But thankfully hardcore gamers still play a significant role - enough to warrant attention.

So why did they back the 32X. So talking so such silly talk . EA hated the fact that SEGA bought Visual Concepts from under EA noses and knew full well they would be a serious rival in the Sports market EA liked to call it own

EA happily supported the Mega Drive, but in the 32X and Saturn only saw consoles not built to last. Sega was a bad investment in their eyes. And rightly so, considering the DC’s early departure.

You are trying to argue that the Saturn was better than the DC for mass market gamers when the western sales show that to not be the case. The DC didn’t take off in Japan so Sega cracked under pressure. That’s too bad.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]If it was all about being developer friendly the DC Xbox , Cube, 360 would have killed the PS2 and PS3 in sales by a massive margin SONY would have been dead now , so don’t start the developer friendly rubbish

It were talking hardware sales then yes the DC did better in the West, if were talking developer support, then no the DC was didn’t do better at all .[/quote]

Actually, the 360’s easier accessibility to devs has helped it steal a lot of marketshare from Sony compared to the PS2 days.

When time is money, no one is going to waste their time when they have a better option.

What the hell are we even debating now?

Really . So what happened with the PS3 ?. Outsold by both the 360 and Wii .

Because of COMPETITION. It doesn’t let people be lazy. And the PS2 did own the market until this generation came along.

LOl I was just saying we can list the odd PC developer. I don’t know who’s info you’re going on, but the Saturn version was a near spot on port of the PC classic and the only version to have CD audio

No, the Saturn port was shite. Levels were changed, and all the building animations were gone compared to the PC version, which was a work of art for its time. I loved C&C back then and was disappointed with the Saturn game.

The DC had better support and better quality games. Like I said, the DC version of MDK2 was the best version of the game. You would have got the best version of Soul Reaver 2 if Sega hadn’t pulled the plug. Granted it had tons Japanese support, but the DC was a hell of a lot more accessible than the Saturn.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Seeing as the Saturn version was a timed exclusive I’ll expect extra to be put in other version that came latter - It happened with some Saturn ports ,even by EA Soviet Strike had extra’s, so did Dracula X, Resident Evil
That’s what tends to happens when a game comes out latter on another system[/quote]

RE was a poor port. The Saturn just could not handle the 3D transparencies or 3D shading/filtering effects.

I don’t want bad ports of old games, thanks. The Wipe Outs were terrible compared to their originals as well, but at least Wipe Out had a good soundtrack I suppose.

Again its subjective - If you loved Football games the DC was utter rubbish, if you liked traditional shooter the DC was poor, if you loved FPS the DC was poor , if you loved RPG’s the DC was pretty poor if you loved VS fighter the DC was lacking,if you loved 3D shooter the Saturn was lacking. In all these genre’s the Saturn had better software imo.

Which is why it was a failure from day one while the DC had a fighting chance.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Well since you don’t buy yakuza games, they’re not working for your money at all, and your money is not paying them . So on that point you’ve lost me…

And I don’t class Yakuza series as garbage at all .[/quote]

Maybe I just don’t generally like that kind of game? I did like Yakuza 1 but mainly because it was a Streets of Rage style RPG. It was kind of wasted on the PS2 tbh.

They do, but it’s Sonic Vs Mario. Quality doesn’t always sell as we’ve seen with JSRF - which to me was perfect and a game that had mass-market appeal written all over it …

It was a great game that didn’t sell. So Sega should make terrible games? No that doesn’t add up. Make good games that do sell instead.

I agree, so stop going on about wanting SEGA to make Panzer Dragoon Saga 2 or Shenmue III

Both those IPs could be made to appeal to a modern audience if they bridge the gap between casual and hardcore and are actually fun for most gamers, which can be objectively measured. Then advertised and timed for release in the right way etc etc.

Sega sucks at all of that and you are making excuses for it.

[Shelcoof]

[quote=“D-Unit”]

The Bosses are my biggest problem, except for Death Egg, all the other Boss fights are BORING, FLAWED and plain Frustrating.

These are definitely the weakest point of the game, a 2D approach to the boss levels could have fixed a lot of these problems. Then again, that goes for the entire game in my opinion.

After finishing the game (which doesn’t take that long) I’m disappointed in the second half of it. The level design in the 2D remakes of the modern Sonic stages just isn’t as good as the first three classic stages, the 3D levels don’t get any better and the boss fights go from mediocre to terrible. I guess it kind of fits the evolution of Sonic over the past 20 years.

If they take the same game engine and use it for Sonic 4 episode 2, they might manage to make a good game out of it. As for Modern Sonic, all I see is Sega trying to desperately patch the “modern” gameplay into something that’s somewhat playable. I don’t think they’ll ever succeed in ironing out all the problems with it. I know some people prefer this gameplay to the old 2D games, but I’m just not one of them and I doubt I’ll ever be.[/quote]

Could you explain to me better what your problems are with the 3D stages, i mean, i really didn?t run into any kind of problems with those, unlike unleashed, i found the controls responsive and the stages well design, and except for 2 or 3 times, no cheap deaths, whenever i died it was my fault.

Well, i think that the 2D stages are really good in the entire game, except for crysis city and the kind of dull color and enviromnent all the stages where really good, i think that is just nostalgia telling you the 3 first ones where better, because to me the modern takes where just as good.

Now the boss fights i have to agree, if they made all the boss fights 2D it would have been perfect, the 3D bosses are really terrible, its the only time in the game where cheap deaths unresponsive controls and poor design choises really come to surface, i never found those problems with the stages themselves but the bosses…

[Team_Andromeda]

As in could have and should have been better especially in technical departments since content is “subjective” when it could be made to please more people

They are lots of reasons why I game might no come up to par graphically , other than just being rushed out .

And again I will not tolerate badly rushed games. Halo was nowhere – NOWHERE – nearly as badly rushed as Daytona. The difference is like day and night

? I never said HALO was rushed out, like Mario 64 it had a long development period the X-Box launch was quality different story for the 360 launch where games not only technical issues (Quake 4 being quite crap and tons of GFX issues) but quite lot of games were pretty poor .

but no one should buy games as rushed as Daytona was.

The gameplay was there and that saved it .

The DC version was better, graphically, and had more or less the same bouncy gameplay

The DC version looked nowhere near as good as the Model 3 Step 2 version and I didn’t like the soft textures that much. And the DC version was lacking the Model 2 AI and the way the AI cars would hustle you and bunch around each side of the car . So no it wasn’t better than the Model 2 version for many

It should not have been rushed mainly because that hurt the Saturn’s image in a very real way.

That is just rubbish used by some. If one played Panzer Dragoon which came out before Daytona USA, it was quite clear the Saturn was able to do and handle advanced 3D graphics.

What next Duke because CyberSled looked and run like a pig on the PS - That was a case for the PS being crap at 3D graphics and hurting it’s image and sales.

but Sony already ruled the market so it didn’t matter

NCL thought it had the Japanese market to it’s self, it even had the USA market to it’s self at one stage . Don’t come it

[quote]Come on. The Xbox arrived in a market where most players were content with their PS2s and the huge support the PS2 was receiving already
[/quote]

So again the bullshit on easy of use, better 3D graphics(which people use againt the Saturn Vs the PS) is just that BULLSHIT. Can you explain why the X-Box had a worst launch than the Cube too ?

Now let’s compare the 360 launch with the PS3 one. The 360 outdid the PS3 at every turn, but Sony have held a big chunk of the market thanks to outstanding first party games

No, MS have always had trouble and huge issues in mainland Europe and Japan and the 360 done little or nothing to change that . But again SONY might have thought it had the USA and UK market all to its self after the PS2 if we use your logic

Sadly, non gamers outnumber us probably by about 8/9:2. You can clearly see this if you play a game like WoW.

No one look at the monthly charts shows the likes of FIFA, COD, GTA sell by the truck load and the simple casual games make a impact each and every month. That’s the trouble with the casuals, They go out in Huge numbers to buy a product and then go for months with out buying nothing as is all to clear with Natal

EA happily supported the Mega Drive, but in the 32X and Saturn only saw consoles not built to last

You’re just being silly . EA goes where it thinks the Marketshare will be . You go one about consoles not built to last yet EA backed the Wii, the 32X, Saturn and 3DO.

You are trying to argue that the Saturn was better than the DC for mass market gamers when the western sales show that to not be the case.

No I’m saying in many area the Saturn had better games and the simple truth of the matter than the DC did not have more 3rd party support than the DC

Actually, the 360’s easier accessibility to devs has helped it steal a lot of marketshare from Sony compared to the PS2 days

Launching early was the big difference

Because of COMPETITION. It doesn’t let people be lazy

But SONY owned the market with the PS2 which if we listen to you after the PS that’s enough.

No, the Saturn port was shite. Levels were changed, and all the building animations were gone compared to the PC version, which was a work of art for its time. I loved C&C back then and was disappointed with the Saturn game

Bits were always going to be cut out to fit in consoles Ram. I thought the Saturn was every bit as good as the PS version myself

The DC had better support and better quality games. Like I said, the DC version of MDK2 was the best version of the game

The DC did not have better support and if we want to go down the rote of which system had the best version of this and that we could be here all-night. After all the Saturn had the best version of Mass Destruction, street fighter alpha 3 (where the Saturn version was even better than the DC version)

You would have got the best version of Soul Reaver 2 if Sega hadn’t pulled the plug

You really need to blame Edios I would think for that

RE was a poor port

It was an all but perfect port with added extra’s

I don’t want bad ports of old games, thanks. The Wipe Outs were terrible compared to their originals as well

Games built around one systems architecture will always have trouble on other systems . Exhumed wasn’t as good on the PS, same for Thunder Force 5, Grandia or how even the X-Box had trouble running games like MGS II

Which is why it was a failure from day one while the DC had a fighting chance

LOL to have a chance in the the USA your system needs a FPS and in Europe a great football(soccer) game and the DC was really lacking in the RPG debt . May have a different story if Fifa, Final fantasy and Half Life made it to the DC

Maybe I just don’t generally like that kind of game?

So that makes it garbage ? I don;t care for Point and Click games but I’ll not call them garbage only down to not liking the genre.

It was a great game that didn’t sell.

Just my point that quality doesn’t always sell

Both those IPs could be made to appeal to a modern audience if they bridge the gap between casual and hardcore and are actually fun for most gamers

So could Road Rash, Def Jam and a whole host of IP from EA, Microsoft ECT. Don’t come it Duke you double standards on this issues is quite shocking , it ok for EA to kill off dead or poor selling IP but not SEGA ?

[Team_Andromeda]

Yes, and I just proved it’s not “most” either

We all know you’re a NCL man, why you try and deny that is beyond me.

(a fanboy which also never personally owned any of their other platforms, not even the DS, opting for a PSP instead

LOL we all know you’re a NCL and Wii man and ‘you’ not owing DS or the other platforms just shows you for the total hypocrite you are ; Telling us that PS zero is shit, while not owning the game much less the platform to play it on

‘Keep it up’

Well that’s all the time you’ll get from me from now

Haven’t you said this before ?

Now if you don’t mind I like to talk about Sonic a game you have little or no interest in , so why you are posting in this thread is beyond me too

[quote]Could you explain to me better what your problems are with the 3D stages, i mean, i really didn?t run into any kind of problems with those, unlike unleashed, i found the controls responsive and the stages well design, and except for 2 or 3 times, no cheap deaths, whenever i died it was my fault.

Well, i think that the 2D stages are really good in the entire game, except for crysis city and the kind of dull color and enviromnent all the stages where really good, i think that is just nostalgia telling you the 3 first ones where better, because to me the modern takes where just as good.

Now the boss fights i have to agree, if they made all the boss fights 2D it would have been perfect, the 3D bosses are really terrible, its the only time in the game where cheap deaths unresponsive controls and poor design choises really come to surface, i never found those problems with the stages themselves but the bosses…[/quote]

Spot on post . My only issues with the game are lack of boss fights and I would have liked to see a Ice stage from either Sonic Adv or Unleashed put in there and Windy Valley really should have been inthe game too , otherwise its bloody brilliant with some of the best 2D platforming on the next gen systems

[Geoffrey]

They are lots of reasons why I game might no come up to par graphically , other than just being rushed out .

You enjoy rushed, buggy mediocre games from multi-billion dollar corporations then. I will not support that and neither will the mass market if that’s all we see.

? I never said HALO was rushed out, like Mario 64 it had a long development period the X-Box launch was quality different story for the 360 launch where games not only technical issues (Quake 4 being quite crap and tons of GFX issues) but quite lot of games were pretty poor .

Yeah that should not have been rushed when a few more months in development could have ensured a perfect port, but you disagree, right?

The gameplay was there and that saved it .

The poor quality hurt the Saturn’s image when that was the last thing it needed.

The DC version looked nowhere near as good as the Model 3 Step 2 version and I didn’t like the soft textures that much. And the DC version was lacking the Model 2 AI and the way the AI cars would hustle you and bunch around each side of the car . So no it wasn’t better than the Model 2 version for many

The graphics were beautiful, smooth and the gameplay wasn’t far from its arcade roots. I call that a great conversion even if it wasn’t up to your standards.

Would you have rather not seen it on the DC at all?

It was BETTER than the Saturn port by miles and miles. If you want to argue that it wasn’t feel free.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]That is just rubbish used by some. If one played Panzer Dragoon which came out before Daytona USA, it was quite clear the Saturn was able to do and handle advanced 3D graphics.

What next Duke because CyberSled looked and run like a pig on the PS - That was a case for the PS being crap at 3D graphics and hurting it’s image and sales. [/quote]

Daytona was a flagship game that was highly popular in the arcades. The bad port just sent the message that the console could not handle it. It deserved better than that especially when the Saturn could do better.

NCL thought it had the Japanese market to it’s self, it even had the USA market to it’s self at one stage . Don’t come it

Yeah, lack of competition makes people lazy.

So again the bullshit on easy of use, better 3D graphics(which people use againt the Saturn Vs the PS) is just that BULLSHIT. Can you explain why the X-Box had a worst launch than the Cube too ?

We have been over this. Gamers were settled into and content with their PS2s by then.

No, MS have always had trouble and huge issues in mainland Europe and Japan and the 360 done little or nothing to change that . But again SONY might have thought it had the USA and UK market all to its self after the PS2 if we use your logic

I don’t need logic when I can understand math. All you need to do is compare the sales of 360s compared to PS3s then compare those numbers to the number of PS2s and Xboxs sold.

The 360 has stolen a lot of Sony’s marketshare thanks to being more competitive.

No one look at the monthly charts shows the likes of FIFA, COD, GTA sell by the truck load and the simple casual games make a impact each and every month. That’s the trouble with the casuals, They go out in Huge numbers to buy a product and then go for months with out buying nothing as is all to clear with Natal

If you don’t believe that casual gamers are firmly in charge of the games industry, then you are being a bit naive.

You’re just being silly . EA goes where it thinks the Marketshare will be . You go one about consoles not built to last yet EA backed the Wii, the 32X, Saturn and 3DO.

The Wii I can understand since it built up a good userbase. The 32X died, and the Saturn was a joke in the eyes of the mainstream that Sega of America was quick to cut loose, remember? We all know the story of the 3DO.

Yes, EA will go where the marketshare will be and will last. Sega wasn’t convincing enough. Why are we arguing this point?

The fact that EA didn’t support Sega was Sega’s own fault. Losing Camelot’s support was Sega’s own fault as well for cutting the Saturn loose too early. Sega burnt a lot of bridges but the Dreamcast still had a lot of good support as proven by its early success.

No I’m saying in many area the Saturn had better games and the simple truth of the matter than the DC did not have more 3rd party support than the DC

The Saturn had better games? Ok we can stop right there.

Launching early was the big difference

It wasn’t that much earlier, and I can tell you what made a big difference: better games. Like Gears of War which put the PS3 to shame at the start.

But SONY owned the market with the PS2 which if we listen to you after the PS that’s enough.

They thought it was, but this time they had real competition to challenge them right at the start of the new gen’s lifecycle. Unlike before.

Bits were always going to be cut out to fit in consoles Ram. I thought the Saturn was every bit as good as the PS version myself

It was a mediocre port of a great game which the Saturn could have handled. But the PS got the best version, then Red Alert afterwards. The Saturn lost that support.

The DC did not have better support and if we want to go down the rote of which system had the best version of this and that we could be here all-night. After all the Saturn had the best version of Mass Destruction, street fighter alpha 3 (where the Saturn version was even better than the DC version)

So again, compare the sales of the DC and the Saturn outside Japan and you will see that the DC performed way better. Especially considering it did not last even half as long as the Saturn.

Why are we debating this? The DC was better because it reached everyone. Gamers and mass market gamers alike.

It was an all but perfect port with added extra’s

Lol no. Net curtain effects were everywhere and the polygon models lost their filtering and shading. The PS version was smoother. Oh and the PS got RE2 then RE3 on top of that. Again, we don’t want scraps. The Saturn fell way behind in terms of mass market support.

Games built around one systems architecture will always have trouble on other systems . Exhumed wasn’t as good on the PS, same for Thunder Force 5, Grandia or how even the X-Box had trouble running games like MGS II

This is true but the Saturn should have been likewise as competitive as the PS and it clearly wasn’t.

LOL to have a chance in the the USA your system needs a FPS and in Europe a great football(soccer) game and the DC was really lacking in the RPG debt . May have a different story if Fifa, Final fantasy and Half Life made it to the DC

Half Life almost did. What a shame that was. It would have beaten the PS2 version as well. But in terms of markets reached outside Japan: DC > Saturn.

So that makes it garbage ? I don;t care for Point and Click games but I’ll not call them garbage only down to not liking the genre.

I never said that Yakuza was garbage. The quality of the PS2 games was generally good. It’s just not my cup of tea.

Just my point that quality doesn’t always sell

You missed the rest of that quote. Just because quality doesn’t sell, doesn’t mean you are justified making garbage. You make quality games that give the market what it wants, otherwise you can be overshadowed by competition instead.

So could Road Rash, Def Jam and a whole host of IP from EA, Microsoft ECT. Don’t come it Duke you double standards on this issues is quite shocking , it ok for EA to kill off dead or poor selling IP but not SEGA ?

None of those IPs have the same depth or potential.

[Team_Andromeda]

[quote]You enjoy rushed, buggy mediocre games from multi-billion dollar corporations then. I will not support that and neither will the mass market if that’s all we see.
[/quote]

Again it all depends on the quality of the final game . I really liked fable II even though it was full of bugs and coming from a multi billion dollar corp. The overall quality and gameplay meant you put up with the bugs.

Yeah that should not have been rushed when a few more months in development could have ensured a perfect port, but you disagree, right

Didn’t matter though the early launch worked a treat for MS and got it more market share.
The trouble for all console launches is developers are working on unfinished hardware and tools.

The poor quality hurt the Saturn’s image when that was the last thing it needed

Panzer Dragoon showed the Saturn could do 3D and there shouldn’t have been any doubts after Sega Rally

The graphics were beautiful, smooth and the gameplay wasn’t far from its arcade roots. I call that a great conversion even if it wasn’t up to your standards.

It was a lovely game, but there so was Daytona USA CE on the Saturn - it just wasn’t a Arcade perfect Daytona USA and that’s what a lot of the fans wanted

It was BETTER than the Saturn port by miles and miles.

If the GFX dept yes - but if you wanted the closest port to the Arcade game in terms of AI and handling the AM#2 Saturn port was the only choice

It was BETTER than the Saturn port by miles and miles.

So because the PS couldn’t handle a port of system 21 game CyberSled (even less power than Model 1 board) the PS was rubbish at handling 3D graphics too ? Don’t come it Duke

Yeah, lack of competition makes people lazy

Sigh… You missing the point that even if you have the market to your self that is no guarantee that your follow up console will go on to win and sweep all before it

Gamers were settled into and content with their PS2s by then.

Who on about gamers you’re quick enough to go on about the PS being easy to program for and having so called better 3D graphics as reason why it won, well the X-Box was much easier to work on and had 3D graphics that were way out in front , but developers still backed the PS2.
Why are developers even working on the PS3 it’s much harder to work on than the 360 after all. In the end Duke its got nothing to do with which machine is easier to work on, but all about Market share.

All you need to do is compare the sales of 360s compared to PS3s then compare those numbers to the number of PS2s and Xboxs sold.

The 360 is being out sold by the PS3 on a worldwide basis , the 360 like the X-Box before it has massive issues and poor sales in most of Mainland Europe and Japan

The 360 has stolen a lot of Sony’s marketshare thanks to being more competitive.

The X-Box was completive it just came out too late a mistake MS didn’t make with the 360.

If you don’t believe that casual gamers are firmly in charge of the games industry, then you are being a bit naive

They’re not, because casuals don’t go into the shops each week to buy games and that’s reflected in the charts where the more traditionalist games make up the charts each and every week.

The 32X died, and the Saturn was a joke in the eyes of the mainstream that Sega of America was quick to cut loose, remember? We all know the story of the 3DO.

? A add-on by it’s very nature isn’t built to last let EA supported the Mega CD and 32X . I’ll remind you that SOA was far quicker to cut lose the 32X than the Saturn and EA backed the 3DO to the max. So no EA not backing the DC had nothing to do with a console being built to last and more to with EA wanting to be the only major sports producer on the console . EA plays big balls when it wants too. SONY stopped it NFL games on the PS2 (I wonder why) and even MS had to cut its own NFL games and cancel XSN to get EA to come onoard X-Box LIVE

The fact that EA didn’t support Sega was Sega’s own fault. Losing Camelot’s support was Sega’s own fault as well for cutting the Saturn loose too early

Yeah SEGA fault for wanting to make a rival to Madden . And yes losing Camelot was a mistake and should have been handled better but that happens in the industry and as for cutting the Saturn lose too early the Saturn was supported by SEGA Japan for as long or longer than MS supported the X-Box or NCL with the Cube (4 years repetitively)
Again your double standards on such issues is getting a bit much now.

The Saturn had better games? Ok we can stop right there

Again is subjective . But VF 2/Fighters Mega Mix is better than any VS fighter on the DC, Saga is better than any RPG on the DC, Decathlete better than almost any sports game on the DC, Christmas Nights - no answer to that on the DC, Panzer Dragoon Zwei is better than any 3D shooter on the DC , Duke Nukem and Exhumed better than any FPS on the DC , WLS 98, WWS are better than any football game on the DC, WSB II is better than any baseball game on the DC, NHL All stars is better than any Hockey game on the DC, Die-hard Arcade, Guardian Heroes is better than any scrolling beat them up on the DC , Souky and Radiant Silvergun better than any shooter on the DC , Dragon Force and Shining Force better than any SRPG on the DC and I’ll argue that Sega Rally is the finest racer on any platform really

It wasn’t that much earlier, and I can tell you what made a big difference: better games. Like Gears of War which put the PS3 to shame at the start

Gears of War better than HALO or the likes of Ninja Gaiden now you’re having a laugh imo and the PS3 launched a year after the 360;very similar to the X-Box launching a year a bit after the PS2 and Gears did not put to shame the likes of Killzone 2 in the GFX dept.

but this time they had real competition to challenge them right at the start of the new gen’s lifecycle

Yes that was the key going early.

But the PS got the best version, then Red Alert afterwards. The Saturn lost that support.

I don’t think the PS got the best version and well market share and poor sales put pay to red Alet.

So again, compare the sales of the DC and the Saturn outside Japan and you will see that the DC performed way better.

Now you’re again changing the goal posts there . The Wii is best selling console this gen you 're going to tell me that it has the best and bigger 3rd party support out of all the current consoles

Why are we debating this? The DC was better because it reached everyone. Gamers and mass market gamers alike

If the DC reached Mass market SEGA would still be in the Harwdare game, it flopped in Europe , sold poor in Japan and only did well in USA - That is not mass Market at all.

Lol no. Net curtain effects were everywhere and the polygon models lost their filtering and shading. The PS version was smoother

Have you even played the game ? The 3d transparent effects were limited at best even in the PS version. The big difference was the shading on the Characters, but to make up for that the Saturn version had better controls , more detailed backgrounds new enemies and pretty brilliant Battle Game

Oh and the PS got RE2 then RE3 on top of that. Again, we don’t want scraps.

There is not point, because you’re not being serious anymore. Did the DC get RE 4, RE Outbreak ECT ?. That’s what happens why your console loses market share.

This is true but the Saturn should have been likewise as competitive as the PS and it clearly wasn’t.

It was when used right as shown in some games - Its just a same developers didn’t put the time and effort in and just tried to run C on the Saturn. You at the PS3 its way more powerful than the 360 but in a lot of cases you’l never know it and a lot of 3rd parties took the easy route of trying to run 360 code on the machine
The Saturn should have been able to handle 3D transparent effects granted, but there Model 2 couldn’t either.

Half Life almost did. What a shame that was.

It was a shame, has was no Fifa for the DC that could have made a world of diffrence as would having FF 7 on the Saturn which would have killed the PS in Japan .

I never said that Yakuza was garbage

So stop saying I’m doing the noble thing by buying garage . I happen to like Yakuza series and it’s far from garbage even if it’s getting milked far too much for it’s own good.

You missed the rest of that quote. Just because quality doesn’t sell, doesn’t mean you are justified making garbage.

I never said it was, only that making a AAA game isn’t a nailed on way to get sales either.

None of those IPs have the same depth or potential

In your opinion . There’s lots of IP from various different companies that are rife for a next gen update but sales of the past series puts pay to that even from EA. I mean EA could make a top next gen version of Star Flight that could put Mass effect to same, but I’ll bet it wont

[Draikin]

Could you explain to me better what your problems are with the 3D stages, i mean, i really didn?t run into any kind of problems with those, unlike unleashed, i found the controls responsive and the stages well design, and except for 2 or 3 times, no cheap deaths, whenever i died it was my fault.

The gameplay is just boring to me. You’re just locked to the track and simply press a few buttons here and there, often going so fast that Sonic ends up plummeting to his death or smashing into an enemy without you even having time to react. Sure, this occurs less than it did in previous “modern” games, but all the problems are still there. The 2D parts of the 3D levels are better, simply because it gets back to actual platforming.

I think the boss battles illustrate the problem I have with this game perfectly: they’re often based on the “3D race track”’ parts and adding a boss to it only amplifies all the problems with those. It’s not that the controls suddenly get worse, it just shows how bad they actually are in the first place. If they don’t surface as much in the regular levels, it’s because Sonic is basically on auto-pilot in those. This makes it an entirely different game from the momentum based platforming you had going on in the classic stages, and even though those stages are visually more impressive they’re not nearly as interesting to actually play.

Well, i think that the 2D stages are really good in the entire game, except for crysis city and the kind of dull color and enviromnent all the stages where really good, i think that is just nostalgia telling you the 3 first ones where better, because to me the modern takes where just as good.

Crysis City was definitely the worst but to me the other “3D to 2D” levels also had the same kind of feel that the 3D levels did. They felt more a bunch of set pieces patched together rather than an actual “complete” level like the first ones. It seems that once they couldn’t work of an existing template, the developers failed create a 2D level that featured everything that made the classic Sonic levels fun to play.

EDIT: and eh, guys, the quote wars are getting a bit out of control here…