The Will of the Ancients ruled the Panzer Dragoon world. Anything that tried to oppose the Towers would be disobeying that will. The Divine Visitor had entered the world, therefore (in Sestren’s eyes) it would be bound by the rules of that world. Also, Sestren may have thought that the dragon was the Divine Visitor, but that’s another story entirely.
True. Maybe the Divine Visitor possessed a rebel in the Ancient Age, but we don’t know about it because the game starring him hasn’t been released yet
(yes I can dream)
[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Haa but who gave it/he/she the name of DV?
Do you remember? :)[/quote]
The game doesn’t actually say who named it the Divine Visitor as far as I know. The name “Divine Visitor” goes back all the way to the Ancient Age, however.
I dont know, but how can the player “disobey” the will of the ancients? >:)[/quote]
If you’re talking about that short speech that Sestren gave in Saga, remember that it believed Lagi to be the Divine Visitor, as Gash and the Seekers did. It seemed to be using the term in a more mocking way…
I agree almost totally with Solo’s idea that the player was just seen as some kind of god-like entity by the Ancients. The thing is, the “originating in Sestren” thing comlicates matters. The Sestren background seen at the start of the game (and when you die) could possibly just be an interesting name entry / game over screen, but it might also have significance, as you say.
[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Quoting would be good :)I mean where is this info?
PDo’s Box?I don’t remember these so called ancient records of the DV’s presence in the world.[/quote]
When camping at the Village of Cainus, Gash said something like “I’m searching for someone… known only as the Divine Visitor. That’s how it’s written in the ancient records, anyway…”
[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Quoting would be good :)I mean where is this info?
PDo’s Box?I don’t remember these so called ancient records of the DV’s presence in the world.[/quote]
The Divine Visitor isn’t mentioned at all in PDO, however there are several references in Saga…
The campfire scene at Cainus:
Edge: Fair enough, why are you here?
Gash: Me? I’m not out to murder anyone.
Edge: That’s not fair…
Gash: I’m searching for… someone… known only as the Divine Visitor.
Gash: That’s how it’s written in the ancient records anyway.
Edge: Divine Visitor?
Gash: Sorry, but that’s all I can say…
Also, Zadoc speaks on the Divine Visitor, the Towers, etc:
Although I don’t have any direct proof, I think the Divine Visitor probably used Sestren as a gateway to enter into the Panzer Dragoon world. It might have had to go Our World >> Sestren >> PD World so to speak. Sestren could have acted as the link between the two planes of existance.
Note that when the Divine Visitor’s “screen” turns off at the end of the game (at least, that’s what it looks like), we’re in Sestren at the time. It could have been returning back to its original world then.
If the human Sestren was referring to was the player, it may have been talking to us with that last statement.
[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Quoting would be good :)I mean where is this info?
PDo’s Box?I don’t remember these so called ancient records of the DV’s presence in the world.[/quote]
The Divine Visitor isn’t mentioned at all in PDO, however there are several references in Saga…[/quote]
Well, this may sound ridiculous, but something in PDO reminded me of the DV. In the mini-game “Enemy Attack!”, the system runs a Continuous Battle Simulation program, and the text intro shows how the program was starting. The final line says “Press A button to execute.”. I find this odd, because this is the only time that there is an ingame reference to the player (the other simulation doesn’t say this) , and it wasn’t really in place. You could simply read this as “Press a button to execute”, which resembles the “press the button for a new beginning” quote. I doubt this was done intentionally, but you never know.
I agree. If the PD games are set in the future, you could think that somehow “we” are also stored inside Sestren. A program could have acted as a means for us to interact with the PD world. When that program was shut down, the connection was lost.
Our purpose is to fulfill the will of the ancients. But… You have chosen a different path… You ignore your duty… You disobey the ancient ones…
Then Sestren goes on to declare the Divine Visitor’s imminent death. If Sestren isn’t referring to the dragon, but the player, or the Divine Visitor, then it raises a number of interesting questions.
Wouldn’t Sestren refer to the Heresy dragon as exactly that, or “the impurity” as it does in its memory orbs? The Heresy dragon knew the difference between Lagi and the Divine Visitor, so why wouldn’t Sestren? The Divine Visitor did return to Sestren just as the Heresy dragon did, so the dialogue overlaps, but at this point you’re supposed to believe that Sestren is referring to the dragon (when he isn’t). That way, the Heresy dragon’s revelation at the end about it not being the Divine Visitor is indeed revelatory.
Our purpose is to fulfill the will of the ancients. But… You have chosen a different path… You ignore your duty… You disobey the ancient ones…
Then Sestren goes on to declare the Divine Visitor’s imminent death. If Sestren isn’t referring to the dragon, but the player, or the Divine Visitor, then it raises a number of interesting questions.
Wouldn’t Sestren refer to the Heresy dragon as exactly that, or “the impurity” as it does in its memory orbs? The Heresy dragon knew the difference between Lagi and the Divine Visitor, so why wouldn’t Sestren? The Divine Visitor did return to Sestren just as the Heresy dragon did, so the dialogue overlaps, but at this point you’re supposed to believe that Sestren is referring to the dragon (when he isn’t). That way, the Heresy dragon’s revelation at the end about it not being the Divine Visitor is indeed revelatory.[/quote]
What if Sestren was talking to the Impurity? I already mentioned the idea about the DV being a replacement for the Impurity that inhabited the Sky Rider. It could have been the Impurity that disobeyed the Ancients’ Will. That way, the DV would have disobeyed them too, since it wanted to accomplish the same goal.
Actually, if Sestren was talking to the DV, that would mean the “human” he refers to is indeed Edge, and Sestren was surprised about the fact that the DV, the new Impurity, had taken control over a human and brought him into Sestren.
The only thing I won’t agree with is the idea that Sestren thought the dragon was the Divine Visitor. Everything else is reasonable.
The way I see it, Sestren identifies the dragon as an impurity in its memory orbs, so Sestren can only be talking to the player/the Divine Visitor before the final confrontation. When the Heresy dragon reveals that you are the Divine Visitor, then Sestren’s words carry a whole new meaning.
Besides, there shouldn’t be any doubt about who Sestren is talking to – the Divine Visitor/the player. He refers to it by name.
I think the Divine Visitor could’ve been an impurity in a manner of speaking (a virus in the system), but then, so could the Heresy dragon.
Like I said before I see the Divine Visitor has just anothe type of impurity.
Btw, you guys mentioned the records where they talk about the.Well Sestren calls us DV too.
I’m sure his idea of home (as in the DV visited his world) isn’t exactly the PD planet.So…
I wouldn’t say it was unreasonable for Sestren to think that the Heresy Dragon was the Divine Visitor, Geoff; it would make good sense in its own right. Remember that Sestren acquired knowledge through monitoring the outside world; if it observed Gash and the Seekers constantly referring to the Heresy Dragon as the Divine Visitor, it might logically think that the Heresy Dragon was the Divine Visitor too, for the same reasons that they did.
Consider exactly what Sestren said just before the final battle:
"I see you have returned…
With a human…
Our purpose is to fulfill
the will of the ancients.
But…
You have chosen a different path…
You ignore your duty…
You disobey the ancient ones…
Now, Divine Visitor… you shall die!"
Now that exchange would arguably make more sense if Sestren was talking to the dragon. After all, why would the Divine Visitor have been fulfilling “the will of the ancients” with Sestren? Why would the Divine Visitor have had a duty to the “ancient ones”, which it was now ignoring?
We know that the Heresy Dragon/Program was some facet of the Sestren system that went renegade for whatever reason. We know that it was not “fulfilling the will of the ancients” like it should have been (as a part of the system), and we know that it was “ignoring its duty” and “disobeying the ancient ones”.
Now the Divine Visitor might have been doing these things, but there’s no real evidence for that. On the other hand, we know that the Heresy Dragon was acting in this way, so it would make sense.
It’s also worth remembering that the Heresy Dragon screams a little “reply” to Sestren in the middle of that exchange, which would imply that it was addressing the dragon, and not Edge.
Now I’m not saying that this is definitely right: I just think we should be open to the various possibilities, and not discount anything as being unreasonable without considering it carefully.
The fact of the matter is Sestren is talking to the Divine Visitor. As we know, the Divine Visitor did return to Sestren with a human, just as the dragon did. We are led to believe Sestren is talking to the dragon when in fact he isn’t to maintain the illusion until the end of the game when we are told otherwise. The dragon isn’t the Divine Visitor.
Whether we like it or not, the Divine Visitor existed in the game world. It began its existence in Sestren, resurrected Edge by temporaily inhabiting his body, then left his body a lifeless husk upon departure.
Do you really think an AI as ubiquitous and watchful as Sestren would be unaware of the Divine Visitor? The Divine Visitor was the only entity that could bring the Ancient Age to an end, after all, so Sestren would have to be blind not to recognise it. Of course, the Divine Visitor is nothing more than the player, but that doesn’t change the fact it was present in the game world to precipitate that end.
Nothing short of an official statement by the creators themselves will convince me that Sestren isn’t talking to the Divine Visitor.
Remember that Sestren was using the term “Divine Visitor” in quite a mocking way. Sestren couldn’t honestly believe that the Divine Visitor was a god-like entity, otherwise its computer reasoning would have told it that the Divine Visitor was not going to die in the coming battle, as Sestren expected. It’s certainly possible that Sestren didn’t really know much about the Divine Visitor, and that it was just mocking this dragon that humankind was praising as their saviour.
Well you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but how do you get around the problems I pointed out in my previous post? The Heresy Dragon had a duty to the Ancients, and it was defying their will; that correlates exactly with what Sestren said. But these concepts do not apply in any way to the Divine Visitor, who is after all the player.
Sestren said “Our purpose is to fulfill the will of the ancients”, but the player has no such purpose. Sestren said “You ignore your duty” and “You disobey the ancient ones”, but why would the player, the “one from the outside world”, have any duty to the Ancients whatsoever? Even they regarded the concept of the player as “divine”, which would imply something intagibly greater then themselves (and by all accounts the player is god-like in relation to the PD world). The player had no duty to the Ancients, so the player could not be ignoring this duty; but we know that the Heresy Dragon was doing exactly this.
It’s clear from the content of that dialogue that Sestren could not have been addressing the player, becasue the player has none of the qualities that Sestren considered the “Divine Visitor” to have. On the other hand, the dragon did; therefore Sestren must have been addressing the dragon, which humankind had assumed to be its divine salvation.
Ah but if Sestren is indeed talking to the Divine Visitor, then your points become irrelevant. In a world where the ancients were considered gods by the people, the Divine Visitor was also considered something approximating a god, but as we know, gods are far from immortal in this world.
If Sestren was talking to the Divine Visitor (which he was, otherwise he wouldn’t have referred to it by name), then we must ask how exactly the Divine Visitor was ignoring its duty etc.
The Divine Visitor returned to Sestren with a human, so it’s equally possible or certain that Sestren is in fact talking to the Divine Visitor, only we don’t know it yet. You cannot rule it out with any certainty. Why wouldn’t Sestren be aware of the only entity that could break the spell of the Ancient Age?
The Divine Visitor may have been the player, but it was still a part of the story (this cannot be denied). Why exactly the Divine Visitor wasn’t obeying the will of the ancients is what I’d like to know.
My point is that Sestren might not know that the Divine Visitor is inside Edge. How does assuming that the alternative is right make that proposal irrelevant?
But the Ancients themselves considered the Divine Visitor to be a god, not just the mistaken people of the current world. Gash said that his search was for “the Divine Visitor. That’s how it’s written in the ancient records, anyway”. So the Ancients saw the player as something like a god, and whatever Sestren knew about this mystical “Divine Visitor” must come from this ancient concept.
I hate to state the blatantly obvious here, but that’s not any kind of proof that Sestren was talking to the Divine Visitor. If I thought you were called Bob and I started a conversation with you where I called you Bob, who would you be? It’s all a matter of perspective. Just becasue Sestren thought that it was talking to the Divine Visitor doesn’t mean that it actually was - just as the Seekers were mistaken when they assumed exactly the same thing (that the Heresy Dragon was the Divine Visitor).
And as I said, Sestren just seems to be using the term in a mocking sense anyway, becasue he doesn’t seem to think that he’s addrssing a god of any sort. What Sestren identifies as the “Divine Visitor” has all the know characteristics of the Heresy Dragon. Just because Sestren calls it the Divine Visitor doesn’t change the fact that he’s obviously referring to the Heresy Dragon in that speech.
But how can the player be ignoring a duty that it does not have? The player is not a servant of the Ancients, the player is whoever “you” happen to be. (Which is, as all the peoples of the PD world imagine you, a godlike entity from a higher dimension).
But the dragon also returned to Sestren with a human, and the rest of the dialogue applies to the dragon where it cannot apply to the real Divine Visitor.
I fear that you’re overlooking the obvious here. The player clearly isn’t disobeying any ancient duty: that would make no sense whatsoever. We have never been given any duties by the Ancients, because we’re just a person living in the “outside world”, who the peoples of the PD world assume to be some kind of god… that’s all.
No, the player isn’t disobeying its ancient duty; the Divine Visitor is.
If Sestren is talking to the Divine Visitor, then his every spoken word applies to it and it alone. Why is that so impossible to believe? First we are led to believe that the dragon is the Divine Visitor, then Sestren reinforces the lie by directly talking to the Divine Visitor whose goals happen to coincide with the Heresy dragon’s in the presence of the dragon , then we discover that the Heresy dragon isn’t the Divine Visitor at all. Why doesn’t Sestren just refer to the Heresy dragon as the Heresy dragon? At this point of the game we are meant to believe the dragon is the Divine Visitor when it isn’t. The creators maintained the deception all the way to the end.
The people of the Panzer world believed dragons were messengers of the gods; so did the Seekers. The Ancient Age is known as the age of the gods and the ancients were the ones who created the dragons. The Heresy dragon sought to end the reign of the ancients; in other words, its [ancient] name defines it as something that rose up against the gods when it has clearly joined in the struggle against the will of the ancients, not any actual gods. The prevailing theme here is self-evident.
The Divine Visitor could just as easily be one of the gods of the Panzer world as well as the player. Remember, for an outsider, the player certainly had a real impact on the game world. The Divine Visitor was a part of the story whether we like it or not.
Remember that “Heresy Dragon” is just an obscure name given to the dragon by Lundi - there is no official name for the entity within the dragon, certainly not one that Sestren ever uses.
But the Divine Visitor is the player; “Divine Visitor” is simply the title we’ve been given by the people of the fictional world, who understandably perceive us as being god-like and divine. So how can we be disobeying any duties? I mean I don’t know about you, but the Ancients have never turned up at my house asking me if I could come and do some jobs for them…
I actually agree that the rest of the argument makes complete sense, it’s just the fact that Sestren says the “Divine Visitor” is disobeying these ancient duties which the real Divine Visitor - the player, you or I - clearly doesn’t have. As the Heresy Dragon certainly is defying the Ancients though, I can only conclude that Sestren was referring to the Heresy Dragon, for whatever reason and in whatever way.
