Just like I said.What I meant : can’t us humans make war tanks that are 100 time more powerful than we are?Aren’t we still sometimes surprised by the power WE created?
Well so could the Ancients create dragons.
[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Just like I said.What I meant : can’t us humans make war tanks that are 100 time more powerful than we are?Aren’t we still sometimes surprised by the power WE created?
Well so could the Ancients create dragons.[/quote]
I love how in many stories our creations have the gall to turn on us because they claim to be superior. Talk about flawed logic. 
Yeah.Chimps and Orangotangos have been overthrown
Humanity’s greatest strength has always been its resourcefulness. No matter how strong or powerful something is, we adapt and create something that can overcome.
I’m still not so sure about this part. D-Unit’s right; if it was considered both “superior to” the Ancients and a “messenger of the gods”, that would have to be a paradoxical statement - it wouldn’t make sense.
I’m sure the Ancients just saw the Light Wing as being so perfect that they thought it was closer to their gods than they were.
The Ancients are referred to as gods on numerous occassions. The scientists who recorded the Uru logs state that the Light Wing was a dragon “perhaps even superior to ourselves”, as if they found the very notion surprising. They never said it was though; how can a creation be superior to its creators?
The gods who left the planet to eventually return were Abadd’s masters. The Zoah bibles were used at Sega.com to provide a background for Panzer Dragoon Orta. Who do you think these gods were if not the people who littered the planet with advanced technology and created living weapons and sentient slaves?
Well if the “gods” mentioned in the PDS bibles had any original identity, I’d agree that they’d be the Ancients, albeit a pretty warped representation of them. The thing is, that’s the idea of “gods” that the primitive peoples of the present world have: not the idea that the ten-thousand-years dead civilisation of the Ancient Age had.
As I said before, the Ancients clearly suggested that their creation was superior to themselves. That Uru record makes out that they thought the Light Wing was perfect; evidently so perfect that it was closer to their idea of god than they were.
Well, I can think of two interpretations of that passage that would cause it to make perfect sense:
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The Anceints described the Light Wing as a divine messenger - that which comes from the gods. They must have thought that there had been some kind of divine influence in the Light Wing’s creation.
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The Ancients used “Messenger of the Gods” more like a figure of speech, simply outlining how “god-like” the Light Wing seemed to them.
Otherwise, that passage would be a meaningless paradox…
Exactly.Plus, it is “a messenger from the Gods” in a sense that it’s a testament of the Ancient’s intellegence and capability.
“a messenger from the Gods” was just an arrogant expression.
"Report regarding the Light Wing. We have at last succeeded in developing the ultimate form of the dragon. But it is more than a dragon. It is a being far different… Something… perhaps even superior to ourselves… A messenger of the Gods.
How does this log translate into something that proves the existence of supernatural gods in the Panzer world when the human survivors regard the ancients as gods, and when the Light Wing was one of the ancients’ creations?
How can it be a messenger of anyone other than the ancients? Supernatural gods didn’t create the Light Wing - the ancients did. The ancients created it: the ancients were its gods.
Regardless of however warped the current population’s interpretation of the ancients may be, the ancients were perceived as gods for a reason. In the case of surviving humans’ perception of them, it was because they wielded god-like powers, but in the case of the impression the creators were trying to sew in our minds, the reoccuring theme of gods was meant shed light on the identity and arrogance of the ancients. They thought they were gods. “Messenger of the gods” is a description given to the dragon meaning it was a messenger of the ancients.
Who else could these gods possibly be?
I think you might be misunterstanding me. All I’m saying it that the Anceints thought the Light Wing was more god-like than themselves. From the way the statement is given, the Ancients described the Light Wing as a Messenger of the Gods because they thought it was superior to themselves.
The Light Wing can’t be their messenger and greater than them; that would be a paradox.
Many people in the real world have created marvellous things and have later claimed to have been divinely inspired. Miracles may take place because of science, but the credit is often given to the god (or gods) of whatever belief stystem.
The Ancients were simply in awe of the Light Wing’s perfection, and they suggested that, although they had created it with their own hands, the design was something higher, something closer to god. I’m not saying that there were gods in the Ancient world; but the Anceints were certainly impressed enough by the Light Wing to make that statement hinting at its divinity. Remember that “messenger of the gods” is just a lengthy way of saying “prophet”.
And as I said, they can’t be talking about themselves as gods because the Light Wing can’t be both their messenger and superior to them. That would be like saying:
"It is a being far different… Something… perhaps even superior to ourselves… something inferior to ourselves."
… which of course wouldn’t make any sense. There’s also the very simple point that, if what you’re suggesting was ture, the Ancients would have to be describing themselves in the first person (ourselves) and then in the third person (the gods) within the same sentance. Which gives us:
"It is a being far different… Something… perhaps even superior to ourselves… a messenger of someone else."
… if they’re still talking about themselves that would be a bit on the schizophrenic side, wouldn’t you say?
In that sentance, the supposed “Gods” cannot be the same entity as the Anceints’ “ourselves”. Otherwise they’d say “our messenger” or “a messenger of ourselves”, not “a messenger of the Gods”.
Alternatively, they could have said it was “perhaps even superior to ourselves… an entity greater than the Gods”. That would give the same outcome you’re suggesting, as well; but as the the sentance stands, it can’t be saying that.
On the other hand, if they were just remarking on the awesome nature of the Light Wing, the statement would literally make sense as it is.
Unless the ancients thought they were gods, which they were by all accounts.
The people who recorded the Uru logs never said the Light Wing was superior to them, just that it might be using the word “even” to express great suprise at the thought of it. Then the Uru log trails off with an ellipsis followed by their description of the Light Wing: “A messenger of the gods”. If the log said “we think we are gods”, and said that “the dragon is a messenger of the gods” would their be any doubt?
If the ancients didn’t believe in gods, but believed in themselves, then what gods are they referring to?
The Light Wing could be superior to the ancients in every way imaginable and still be their messenger because they created it.
The Ancients never said “we are gods”, and the Uru records seem to suggest the opposite: they believed in gods themselves (imo anyway).
They were surprised, but if they really thought they were gods, they could not have been surprised (gods can create anything they want).
Perhaps some divine white spheres floating around in Sestren
So you would have something that is superior to a god (which is impossible) but still their messenger?
No, but various sources throughout Panzer Dragoon Saga do say they were gods, or thought they were.
It’s far from impossible. If humans think they are gods, even metaphorically, that doesn’t stop them from creating something perfect.
Except the Ancients created Sestren as well D-Unit…
I still think those scientists were answering to some higher authority since they were told to cancel the Light Wing project (even tho they disobeyed that) and that this higher authority was what they thought of as “Gods” and they were the same as Abadd’s Masters, the Ancients destined to live again and rule the PD world once more should Abadd have succeded in his mission… Were they Gods for real? Imo No they weren’t but they sure were fond of that idea and tried to convince everyone else of that “fact” too…
Similar to how Egypt’s Pharaohs(sp) and Rome’s Caesars(sp) wanted to be worshipped as Gods by their ppl even tho as we know they were “mere” humans as well…
Little silly theory:
If the Light Wing was “perhaps even superior to” the ancients then maybe it was able to create life as well? That’s the highest power of a God no? The Creation of Life? If that’s the case then perhaps Lagi is able to reproduce as seen in the end of PD Orta as a direct result of his transformation to the Light Wing even though he reverted/evolved/mutated/whatever to other forms later?
Again, I think you’re missing my point… the Ancients did not describe themselves as gods in that passage, they represented themselves with the first-person “ourselves”. The third-person term “the Gods” has to refer to another group of entities, however imagined or metaphorical they might be. It would be a very bad use of English otherwise.
But as I said before, they must be calling it a messenger of the gods because it’s probably superior to themselves. There’s a train of thought in that sentance, and the ellipsis only emphasises the scientist’s reflection on the nature of the Light Wing.
… of course not. But as I’m trying to point out, it simply doesn’t say that.
Well this is just it: there’s no evidence that the Ancients didn’t believe in gods. And even if they didn’t believe in gods, they knew of the concept of gods, and so they could remark that the Light Wing’s design was a blessing from some kind of higher agancy. (Even if they were just using it as a figure of speech.)
Now I’m not trying ot argue that the Ancients definitely believed in gods. To be honest, that line “Messenger of the Gods” just sounds like romanticised speculation to me. But what the text identifies as “gods” literally cannot be the same people who wrote the text, for all the reasons I’ve pointed out above. It would be a really incorrect use of English in at least two major ways if that were so.
Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree again.
The ancients created the Light Wing, so they were its gods at least metaphorically. As we know, dragons were the ancients’ messengers (again metaphorically speaking).
The Zoah bible describes the departure of gods who planned to return one day, which also describes Abadd’s masters – the ancients – perfectly.
Gash said that the ancients weren’t the gods everyone thought they were, but people who wielded god-like powers (i.e. they created life).
In the face of all this evidence, how could the ancients not be an arrogant race of people who endeavoured to be or become gods? Why when we are led to believe the ancients were akin to gods because of their vast power does the description “messenger of the gods” end up in the log of the people who created a dragon?
Why would these scientists be so surprised at the notion of something being superior to themselves if they didn’t believe they were gods?
Will someone atleast show my posts weren’t totally ignored … Is it that dumb of a thought of those scientists not being “THE” ancients … It seems quite logical to me the way it’s presented, maybe I’ve just gone insane …bah…
I didn’t ignore your post Alex. All the citizens of the Ancient Age are classified as Ancients, but one group of them went into hibernation.
I was reffering to what I wrote about that one group only being the “Gods”
To be honest Geoff, I agree that it would make sense if the Ancients had descibed themselves as Gods in that log; I only get the impression that they did not because of the exact wording of the passage.
Now if it’s just a slightly “questionable” translation of the original Japanese, that would also make sense to me. And after all, video games rarely have perfect grammar or sentance strusture, so I admit that I might be examining the text a little too closely
… and don’t worry, Al3x, no-one’s ignoring you. I do agree with Geoff that the Ancients are generally regarded as a whole race, though. The “Gods” would almost certainly have to be the Ancients as a whole - especially those scientists that made the Light Wing. Either that, or some other (probably fictional) group of divine powers.