I think this is good evidence that Edge’s dragon knew he was possessed/occupied by the Divine Visitor. The dragon program says “I exist to lead the Divine Visitor”, suggesting that in all three games that was (ultimately) the reason for his existence, but he only got to actualise that plan when the opportunity arose in Saga.
This is the part I take issue with. I agree with the part where you’ve said that Edge’s dragon shows a gradual aesthetic evolution towards the Light Wing. But I disagree that the Light Wing was with us all along. The Light Wing is only one form of Edge’s dragon, not the whole dragon in all of its forms. This is made clear in the logs when the Ancients say that they scattered the pieces of the Light Wing across the Continent. The pieces they scattered are only the Light Wing genetic code (contained within the twelve pieces that the explicitly mention). There is no mention of those pieces being intended for Edge’s dragon (which I agree is at least a possibility), but even if that was so this still doesn’t make the Light Wing part of Edge’s dragon. It is a distinct add-on (intended or not) that is only formed when the D-Units are all collected.
I’m trying to be charitable to your argument here, but I can’t get my head around this conception of the Light Wing as a character. As I see it, you could mean several things by the Light Wing being a character.
The Light Wing is separate character from Edge’s dragon in the way that Edge and Azel are separate characters. Separate minds and bodies. I don’t think you mean this.
The Light Wing is another name you’re using for Edge’s dragon in all of its forms. But if that is the case, why not just refer to it as Edge’s dragon? Clearly people are going to be confused if the Basic Wing is asserted to be the Light Wing.
Edge’s dragon becomes a new character when the Light Wing transformation takes place, such as how people sometimes refer to Super Sonic as a character. But we all know he is really Sonic, and the differences are just in abilities and appearance, so he is not literally a new character.
If its only symbolism that matters to you in this case, then yes I agree that we can see the Light Wing representing a messenger of the gods that was required to lead the Divine Visitor. So, if the player completes their own personal game of Panzer Dragoon Saga with the Light Wing then that symbolism fits nicely together.
However, as a story requirement I just don’t see reason to accept that because of the in game evidence I’ll explain below. As an metaphorical interpretation of a certain way that the game could be finished though, sure, if we choose to ignore other evidence.
I’m not referring to the Arm Wing FMV here, but the capability of finishing the game with that form. If the Light Wing had been intended requirement to defeat Sestren, then Team Andromeda would be required players to find all of the D-Units before they could proceed. But they didn’t, evidence shows that any of the three forms - Arm Wing, Light Wing, or Solo Wing - were sufficient to defeat Sestren.
In a word, yes. Stating the core original conceit again: the dragon form you complete PDZ in; and any extracurricular evolution you’ve achieved in PDS; have zero consequence to the story arc itself. That may be seen as a literal fact, the story is fully complete with only Windrider and Arm Wing representing the dragon’s final form in Zwei and Azel, respectively. And so…
Yes(ish). But also no, not as I think you may still be interpreting this. The Light Wing Dragon transformation is equally immaterial to the story.[/quote]
Then we need to get this part clear before anything else can be communicated. That conceit is the foundation for everything. Setting aside all other elaborations for the moment, is it possible for you to entertain that (bold part) as a viable opening premise or not?
Okay, lets run with that premise. At least in a possible world, the game stories were only completed with the Windrider and the Arm Wing. So if we accept that, what follows concerning the Light Wing?
What follows is a context for perceiving everything witnessed - in that mainline narrative running from Zwei to Eins to Azel -as seamlessly congruent.
I’m not going to retread all of the corroborations for this post, as I have mooted most of the supporting associations in some form already. I will stipulate that some of the judgments may be called subjective, but I will also reject that any of it is arbitrary; in the sense that the factors have been weighed according to consistent criteria:
There is a single point that maybe needs answering first, as it clouds the issue with arbitrariness by it’s very nature. Twice now you’ve stressed the idea that we aren’t forced to read the Uru records, which comes across as a less-than-direct sapping of my own persuasion that the Light Wing is part of the mainline narrative. Might you apply that principle equally and uniformly to the revelation that Azel was abducted then? It truly must follow that we may also not regard that part of her own back story as consequential - ever again - since it’s not something we are forced to read. Or shall I scrounge up an itemized list of every last element that must then be classified as inconclusive by that criteria?
Please don’t force me into arguing semantics; no one will like it when I’m arguing semantics…
So that is again the operative focus here, the mainline narrative. Considering the adventure to be all that is revealed by an average run through the games, both through gameplay and non-interactive story exposition, (FMVs included) it is quite easy to take everything at face value and it will make sense. There is only one major stumbling block - the memory orb that suggests simultaneously that the Type_01; the Skydart; and the Brigadewing were all the ending form for Lagi’s mission, and which directly contradicts Gash’s record of the Windrider/Lagi sealed-crest - but it is so outrageous and conspicuous that it may as well be a flashing neon sign telling us: Don’t Get Hung-Up On These Details!
Hence the easy conceit: depictions representing projections of the past or future, from either Sestren or the dragon, have non-linear rules when pertaining to permutations of the dragon’s own actions. And as it happens, that conceit holds true with great consistency.
Accepting that one simple rule, nearly everything else may be held to a very literal standard, and any element that is presented as both credible and important, may be fit together in the whole with hardly any arbitrariness at all. Lagi’s unusual origins are shown to us without any ambiguity, and the conclusion of Lagi’s mission is at first manifest, then elaborated on and clarified in an equally unambiguous manner. Lundi believed his dragon had exhausted its power and would return finding a new rider one day. In the meantime… another dragon appears out of the ‘blue’ with a rider who looks, sounds and acts quite unlike any other human ever depicted in the series, and who immediately gets himself shot in the back by another dragon rider. Another good rumble ensues. And while that story is not elaborated on as much as Lagi’s, neither is any ambiguity subsequently added to the fundamental depiction. Rather to the contrary, we are supplied with only a single congruent elaboration for who/what those riders are likely to be; and a single highly credible depiction of the likely “activation” of the dragon itself.
In other words, we know Lagi began life as a mutated coolia, yet we are not given any other literal reasons to believe any other dragon incarnations either did or should have had similar origins. Greatly to the contrary, even when Sestren obligingly recaps the most salient points of our dragon’s previous manifestations and adventures for us… it conspicuously corroborates that Lagi’s and the Blue Dragon’s circumstances are individual and unique. By extension, so should be those of Edge’s dragon, which is precisely in line with what we are shown and told. If we have been supplied with perfectly credible and corroborated explanations for why the previous two dragons appeared when and how they did, why shouldn’t we expect the same from Edge’s dragon? If the totality of the material pertaining to Lagi and the Blue Dragon fit together so congruently - without needing to add any arbitrary conjecture to the mix at all - what happens when we simply assume the totality of the material pertaining to Edge’s dragon should as well?
We end up with every element of the mainline narrative of PDS as a congruent part of the whole. Does the Light Wing actually mean anything or does it mean nothing? If it means something, then it should mean essentially what I have asserted. The symbolism is perfectly congruent, and no unqualified conjecture is required to justify that.
But then I’ve tried to mix in these thematic persuasions all along, and so I don’t know if this will make any further impression against the isolated points your objections have been returning to. As usual that got more long winded than I even intended it to be, but I think I will be able to answer every one of your discrete points as well, if hopefully you can entertain this generally, and the possibility that there is a consistent context for getting around almost every possible objection.
In this minimal Arm Wing ending possible world that we’re contemplating, it is possible not to have read any of those logs. So, in this view of the story, Edge may never have found out that Azel was stolen. But I’m not saying that Azel wasn’t stolen (she may well have been), just as the Light Wing project may have existed without that transformation taking place. I see no inconsistency with taking this view of the extra information that can be obtained about the events in the world.
I should add that, if we accept the view that there was a Light Wing project without the transformation taking place, then we must also accept other optional things that we can potentially see - such as a baby dragon exiting the crest in the Genesis Chamber - are consequential in some way, even if they didn’t happen. There would still be a baby dragon in that crest even if it was never accessed. To say that the Azel abduction and Light Wing project happened but there was no baby dragon inside the crest is surely arbitrary. But all of this fits in with an Arm Wing ending to Panzer Dragoon Saga, so perhaps it doesn’t matter and the rest of your theory can still work.
I agree that we can put the different crest images to one side if those details directly contradict one another.
I’m not sure what elaboration you mean regarding those riders (that they are both drones?), but presumably you mean the activation of the dragon was caused by the Empire activating the Tower?
Hmm, I don’t think we should necessarily assume that about Edge’s dragon. Edge’s dragon could have been activated by the Divine Visitor’s presence and/or Azel’s awakening, which ties in with his revelation at the end that he exists to lead the Divine Visitor. But, all of that fits together without invoking the Light Wing and its creators’ speculation about it being a “messenger of the gods”. So, should we consider that reference to tie in with the main story other than symbolically? I don’t know, but at this stage I’m not convinced. If we can explain Edge’s dragon without postulating more theory than we have to I think we should… unless there’s some reason to accept the more complex theory.
I do think that the Light Wing passages mean something, but the question is - what? There are many ways of interpreting the passages left behind by the Light Wing’s creators, such as Geoffrey’s view that the Ancients saw themselves as gods who created something better than themselves. I would rather take the passages at face value in that they’re referring to the specific Light Wing form (not Edge’s dragon in general) and try to invoke a meaning that way. We risk assuming too much otherwise.
As I’ve been attempting to present an answer for just that question…
And as you and everyone have risked assuming as much, if not more, many times before. I asked you not to make me argue semantics, in part because I just don’t care - there is even no possible gratification left in the endless circles of that dance for me - and in part because I must end up radicalizing the circuit of antagonism and resistance that is plainly already in play here. I can’t express my gratitude enough for your efforts here, with the site and personally both, and of course I appreciate the feedback; but I’ve lost any motivation for this. I’ll only seriously piss you off if I continue with any genuine form of engagement. And in a sense I may just be too old, cranky and jaded for this kind of thing. You have made it plain that the case as I’ve presented it doesn’t make sense to you - or indeed anyone else, who even might care.
And there’s very little left to say anyway, the DNA of the perspective is here already. Personally, I’ve already cracked this nut, thanks in greater part to TWotA.
But your argument - as I understand it - does fundamentally come down to a semantic game when it comes to the use of the name “Light Wing” and what that stands for. That is crucial to other claims that you’ve made, such as the Light Wing being a character. So, it was really unavoidable for me to press the semantic point since everything seems to hinge on it. You may not want to argue semantics, but I don’t want to overlook something that crucial either if I’m to take the argument seriously.
[quote=“The Ancient”]I can’t express my gratitude enough for your efforts here, with the site and personally both, and of course I appreciate the feedback; but I’ve lost any motivation for this. I’ll only seriously piss you off if I continue with any genuine form of engagement. And in a sense I may just be too old, cranky and jaded for this kind of thing. You have made it plain that the case as I’ve presented it doesn’t make sense to you - or indeed anyone else, who even might care.
And there’s very little left to say anyway, the DNA of the perspective is here already. Personally, I’ve already cracked this nut, thanks in greater part to TWotA. [/quote]
Well it makes sense - I think - if I accept the Light Wing = Edge’s dragon premise. There’s just little reason why I would do that since the ancients emphasised that all of the Light Wing data was contained within the D-Units and that it is the name of a particular form. If the Uru logs just said “the dragon project” instead of “Light Wing” I think I’d be more likely to buy into your theory.
Anyway I’m happy to wrap up the discussion here. If you want, we can attempt to compile this into a theory for the site, although if so I’d ask that the semantics are clearly defined to avoid the confusion this topic has caused me.
By the way, I’ve started work on some of the other “Dragon Forms” entries. Here’s the Basic Wing which is basically done. Any feedback would be great: thewilloftheancients.com/enc … basic-wing
Just about the Basic Wing: *‘but featured a long white horn [and armored face in a similar arrangement] to that of the Blue Dragon.’ * I would say something like that only because to me the horn on its own would not seem very reminiscent of the classic design. But there doesn’t seem to be much else actually needed does there?
Take this for what you will… it took a while but the Basic Wing form really grew on me over time, even though it seemed almost repulsive at first. At some point I noticed how absolutely odd it truly is, because the wings are aft of the legs; given the bird-like anatomy of all previous forms, that’s a feature that should mark it as an entirely different class of creature by normal evolutionary indicators. As though the only possible common ancestry predated an evolutionary split where one branch evolved its forelegs into wings while the other evolved its hind-legs into wings. And as I was contemplating the wallpaper recently, the characterization that occurred to me was… chimerical. Basic Wing kinda looks like two halves from unrelated things were mashed together, with maybe even a little something else in-between…
The theme of this post will I think be “irony”. A curious intersection of factors - giving Panzer Dragoon thoughts a good rest for a couple years; reading the new translated material; several other remarkably provocative questions and anecdotes raised in succession - found me staring at that wallpaper, and thinking… what if:
And I’ll offer another apology to Draikin here, I recall a debate where I said D-Unit (nearly certain) was grasping at “semantic scraps” from that same wallpaper image. But I think every extroversion of frustration for me here ever, has been over the same essential issue: As I said everyone - including myself - may cherry-pick from the evidence what will best serve their point, but I typically go out of my way to acknowledge other fruits on the same branches of evidence, whenever they may look equally ripe. So it can be all the more disheartening if others effectively refuse to do likewise.
It would be nice to have a general sort of moratorium on the whole silt layer of semantics represented by systemic necessities and game-vs-story dissonances. Loosely covered by my term interface distortions. As a baseline it is an arbitrary judgment call whether to give something a pass on that score. The option is always on the table, and everyone - and I do mean EVERYONE - will pick it up or not according to convenience. I know myself to be as fallible as the next person, and I will certainly not presume my integrity is perfect but… I believe I have never wielded that option against the validity of any theory or speculation as a singular argument. I have definitely always tried to avoid doing so.
[quote=“Solo Wing”]In this minimal Arm Wing ending possible world that we’re contemplating, it is possible not to have read any of those logs. So, in this view of the story, Edge may never have found out that Azel was stolen. But I’m not saying that Azel wasn’t stolen (she may well have been), just as the Light Wing project may have existed without that transformation taking place. I see no inconsistency with taking this view of the extra information that can be obtained about the events in the world.
I should add that, if we accept the view that there was a Light Wing project without the transformation taking place, then we must also accept other optional things that we can potentially see - such as a baby dragon exiting the crest in the Genesis Chamber - are consequential in some way, even if they didn’t happen. There would still be a baby dragon in that crest even if it was never accessed. To say that the Azel abduction and Light Wing project happened but there was no baby dragon inside the crest is surely arbitrary. But all of this fits in with an Arm Wing ending to Panzer Dragoon Saga, so perhaps it doesn’t matter and the rest of your theory can still work. [/quote]
You again refused to let go of that semantic tactic for discrediting the Uru Records… Even after accepting my conceit, every other step of the way you still choose to stay hung-up on the same old details. If your general message there is only that optional elements of the story can be assumed to count for something whether they are literally manifested in a given playing or not; well of course, that has been a basis of my own argument all along, so why are you lecturing it back to me? You’re the only one who keeps making the D-Unit collection and the Light Wing transformation into prerequisites for accepting their validity. I never have; explicitly the opposite actually.
So the reality of this entire area of contention can be expressed by that norm of double-standards: assuming certain system elements (D-Units/Light Wing characteristics) to pertain to thematic elements (Light Wing’s relationship to Edge’s dragon, its ‘part’ in the ending) whether they are used or not - nope, not valid; whereas, assuming certain thematic elements (FMVs, all other static depictions and literal references) are overridden by other system elements (acquiring the dragon-pup, Solo Wing transformation) even when those system elements are not used - that’s perfectly valid?
I have never once even implied that the Shelcoof crest, dragon-pup, or Solo Wing Dragon don’t exist on such terms. I’ve barely even included them because they aren’t pertinent to my case directly. Every last part of my argument has pertained exclusively to thematic congruence and consequence. Yet on that front the only real counter-point you chose to make, in mean terms, boils down to the technicality that a player may not read the Uru Records. Reducing everything to semantics again, which I will take the liberty of paraphrasing as: a player who’s completely ignoring the story wouldn’t see this evidence…
Know what? You can skip the FMVs too!
And this is why I so disdain semantics, because I virtually always know before I even step into that arena, whether there is any genuine victory condition for either position. Which, more often than not… there isn’t.
You are conjuring up those semantics on your own:
You hit me with a catch-22 contained within a single paragraph. Things are known about “Light Wing”, and things are known about “Edge’s dragon”. Those are the descriptors available to us, so obviously I will use “Light Wing” to connote a peculiar trait of that descriptor; conversely I will use “Edge’s dragon” if I only need to connote the manifest entity, in whatever form. Of course I’m not going to start calling Edge’s dragon the Light Wing all the time, and I never have, so I truly have no clue where that’s coming from in the first place. Yet if I never used the “Light Wing” descriptor I uhh… can’t very well say anything about the Light Wing can I? Which would be far more confusing, wouldn’t you agree?
In fact I have no clue what it is you are so hung-up on about the labels, as such. The name “Light Wing” stands for the Light Wing as we know it, as it always has.
Once more I cannot even fathom why such labeling even matters to you? But anyway, that’s a terribly peculiar paraphrasing of the material… the Uru records indeed nominate the Light Wing as a dragon form, and explain the purpose and nature of the D-Units; but what those ancients emphasize is that the Light Wing is not only a dragon form, and that its characteristics and circumstance are extraordinary. But this is quite deja-vu, I know I had fully covered that ground only a few posts back. So in responding with such a ‘black-is-now-white’ recharacterization of an answered point, we seem to have officially reduced this to the “yes it is / no it isn’t” purity of argumentation…
The one other time I’ve been motivated to directly challenge the status-quo baselines of our understanding, I attempted to focus on a few foundational technicalities. That translated to a mistake, as I was instead almost exclusively tasked for the absence of persuasions for my viewpoint itself. A personal irony about that circumstance was that I think Lance Way’s sensibilities about narrative importance may have been closer to my own of anyone.
This case has been very poorly structured, I know that; or rather it was without much structure by nature. But I suppose the attempt to offer so many invented persuasions in advance of the more tangible arguments was deliberate, if in practice similarly non-productive. Indeed the mortar is just chipped at in order to discredit the value of the bricks, same difference. Either way I must end up distracted by semantics it seems. Maybe I’ll find motivation to compile the whole theory better at some point Solo, the immediate problem I face is that the single most compelling piece of evidence for believing it is: EVERYTHING.
You’re making this “more complex” by choice. I agree with you entirely about not postulating more than necessary, that is precisely why I’ve been stressing the unqualified conjecture criteria. Any and all other postulations I’m aware of - including some options presented here - leave large holes demanding to be filled by more of such unqualified conjecture. By clear contrast, the Light Wing is our bird in hand; no one has ever had a problem accepting the Heresy dragon as a composite of distinct forces, which may be more and less dominant in different ways and at different times. This merely adds one more force to that exact same mix. The peculiarities of the Light Wing’s role and features can and will fit easily and fully all requirements for those explanations, so why not simply… let them?
Disclaimer: this is in the spirit of willfully obtuse irony, and I know it’s not explicitly representative of all viewpoints - especially yours Solo - but it expresses one of those baselines that people keep returning to. Do not take it as an argument per se… though I do want to make a point.
Effectively that breaks down about like this:
Zwei - 1 “dragon-pup” = 1 "Solo Wing"
Eins - 1 “Solo Wing” = 1 “Solo Wing"
Azel - 2 dragon-pups” + 2 “dragon crests” + 1 “Light Wing” = 1 “Solo Wing”
I mean, of course they’re all the same thing, that’s some truth right there for you.
Which really seems like it might be the baseline affording the greatest resistance to this idea. Light Wing should be a mere part of this perfectly natural formula for getting everything back to ‘normal’.
Alright, I’ve made that change you suggested. I agree there isn’t much else needed, so I’ll publish this and then start on Valiant Wing (one of my favourites).
Hmm, interesting. What would those two halves represent, I wonder?
I’ll respond to the stuff on your theory later in a separate post.
How far do you propose suspending judgement on the semantics? I mean, if something in the game world is called by a particular name - for example the second dragon form being referred to as Valiant Wing - it seems to me reasonable to call it Valiant Wing, all else considered equal. That does not seem a matter of picking it up according to convenience. There is reason to call it Valiant Wing that is more than a subjective preference/convenience, surely? At least some uses of names are reasonable and justified, with nothing else available on that table that could be reasonably chosen as an alternative.
I think there’s a misunderstanding here. I’m not discrediting the Uru Records.
If you re-read my response, you’ll see that I wrote that we should accept the Uru records if we accept that other optional elements exist in the story’s world too (discovered or not). It’s all about consistency regarding what evidence we accept.
If you accept that too, then there’s no disagreement. But it is worth clarifying nonetheless.
The point of all this was that you were asking me to accept the Arm Wing ending, which allows for your theory. So, I accept the Arm Wing ending as at least a possible world, and accept that the Light Wing records in Uru exist in this same world. With this accepted, where do we go from here regarding you theory?
Now about this alleged double standard…
I agree that the D-Units and Light Wing records exist in the game world. I also agree that Light Wing’s visual characteristics show similarities with the other forms of Edge’s dragon.
The dragon-pup, Solo Wing transformation are not just system elements though, they are thematic elements too (at least as much as the Light Wing) featuring additional dialogue related to them (Edge asking if the Solo Wing is his dragons true form and if the pup is the son of his dragon) and linking to the theme of the dragon coming full circle and linking to the theme of death and birth (featured again in Orta’s ending).
So that appears to be a disagreement there, but I can only see it as fairer not discriminate and consider the evidence we have about the Light Wing and Solo Wing as both legitimate (whether or not the transformations took place). So, it is not a double standard, because I consider both to be important and valid.
That was one possible way of interpreting your use of Light Wing and that asserting that Light Wing - whatever it is - to be character. But I’m confused with who you think this Light Wing character is, so I’ll ask again for clarity. I’ve added an option (4) this time:
Light Wing is separate character from Edge’s dragon in the way that Edge and Azel are separate characters.
Light Wing is another name you’re using for Edge’s dragon in all of its forms.
Edge’s dragon becomes a new character called Light Wing when the transformation takes place, such as how people sometimes refer to Super Sonic as a character.
Light Wing is a name for Edge’s dragon if and only if it is in the Light Wing form.
But if (4), then the Light Wing is not a separate character at all. Perhaps this is what you meant, but if so it was far from clear since the Light Wing was asserted to be a character.
So, before I try an interpret anything more on that point, which option is it?
Because I have no idea what you’re talking about otherwise. :anjou_embarassed:
Agreement on language use is the gateway to conversation.
We may know it as different things though, so we need to clarify this.
But I think you mean option (4)?
Yes, I agree that the Uru records mean that the Light Wing is a dragon form; it is explicitly stated. That’s why I said I’d be more likely to buy into your theory if the Uru logs used “dragon project” instead of Light Wing (referring to not just the Light Wing form). But they don’t, so I’m not paraphrasing it as that.
But I’ll wait until you’ve answered my (1) to (4) question about who the Light Wing character is before progressing further with this.
Okay, if the Light Wing’s role and features can and will fit easily and if it meets the requirements for explanation, then I have no problem letting it become an explanation. I just have yet to be convinced of those two if conditions being met. That’s your job.
A job left undone… or a job that has been undone? I suppose it amounts to the same result in the end.
Mea culpa, again, on the count of poor clarity. But the uncited generalities and vagueness of much your own criticism doesn’t help me any in that regard. The fatal issue is that you’ve consistently refused to accept my most important efforts at clarification:
That is now the third time you have obtusely refused to acknowledge that there is much greater meaning found in the Uru records than the mere ‘fact’ that Light Wing is a dragon “form”. In truth what is qualified - what is “emphasized” - is that it is actually “more than a dragon”. But you paraphrased “the ancients’” message to us about the Light Wing, as though all consequence is reserved for that single word “form”. Yet since that word appears to hold so much power and precedence for you, I get curious about some of its other usages:
First, the only direct reply I can offer to that question is: in the event of such a hypothetical absurdity as a disagreement over whether “Valiant Wing” should be called “Valiant Wing” or not… I would of course maintain my default neutrality, as I always have, and say that it doesn’t matter because it’s the Valiant Wing! But I cannot myself imagine ever arriving at such a reductive fixation about the usage of a singular term…
Yet since you keep framing this as an issue about the labeling of dragon “forms”, the first credible example pertinent to that point - as best I can understand it - that I thought of, is the usage of “Solo Wing”. Since the “Solo Wing Dragon” is also literally and explicitly a dragon “form”; indeed if we afford the same precedence to the word’s usage by Edge when he says “The dragon’s true form?” it would even seem that the only possible importance in that statement is the affirmation that the “Solo Wing” is expressly just a dragon “form”. Furthermore it is a label only literally given to a singular “form” from a single game in the series. But oddly enough… no one has ever had any problems with a very liberal usage of that label, transferring it to “Blue Dragon” or “Type_01” forms, and trusting to context and the assumed intelligence of their audience to cover for any semantic ambiguities. So I guess my ultimate answer to that point, is that assuming any discussion exists in a climate of good faith, I couldn’t anticipate that such technicalities would ever be a true issue?
[quote=“Solo Wing”]I think there’s a misunderstanding here. I’m not discrediting the Uru Records.
If you re-read my response, you’ll see that I wrote that we should accept the Uru records if we accept that other optional elements exist in the story’s world too (discovered or not). It’s all about consistency regarding what evidence we accept.
If you accept that too, then there’s no disagreement. But it is worth clarifying nonetheless. [/quote]
Except that literally you are, on two fronts even.
And I defy you to cite a clear basis for this recurring allusion that I do/did not accept any other optional elements? I’ve been scrupulously consistent about that for my entire history with this site, possibly even the only one who truly has. The dispute has never been over the “legitimacy” of evidence on technicalities, but the actual qualities of the evidence:
[quote=“Solo Wing”]The dragon-pup, Solo Wing transformation are not just system elements though, they are thematic elements too (at least as much as the Light Wing*) featuring additional dialogue related to them (Edge asking if the Solo Wing is his dragons true form and if the pup is the son of his dragon) and linking to the theme of the dragon coming full circle and linking to the theme of death and birth (featured again in Orta’s ending).
So that appears to be a disagreement there, but I can only see it as fairer not discriminate and consider the evidence we have about the Light Wing and Solo Wing as both legitimate (whether or not the transformations took place). So, it is not a double standard, because I consider both to be important and valid.[/quote]
Semantics piled onto semantics… the D-Units and Panel aren’t just system elements either. That is arbitrarily compounding the degree of interface distortion. It well illustrates the pattern of resistance; any relative distinctions I attempt to construct, you are willing to attempt to deconstruct by any and all notional technicalities.
So indeed, we have a disagreement. And most likely an irreconcilable one.
-You have tacitly (and repeatedly) redacted the entire message and meaning of the Uru records to: “Light Wing dragon form”. That’s obfuscation.
-You asked me to clarify if I was suggesting the Light Wing transformation was consequential to the story while the Solo Wing Dragon transformation was not. So I clarified that both transformations are immaterial to my conceit; yet you continued to ascribe confusion and suggest I am not applying rules consistently. That is just plain obstinate.
-You attempt again to discredit the relative distinction of the Uru records as a conspicuous thematic element - as part of the mainline narrative - by the basest technicality of exemption: ‘well you don’t have to read them’. I’ve defended that point over again, and you have only ever offered a reductive attack on the form of the argument rather than the substance and intent. And “that’s semantics” as they say, a textbook example.
“at least as much as the Light Wing”. And that relative distinction is the crux of it all right? The Light Wing mustn’t have a more pertinent role in the story than the Solo Wing Dragon, and I am asserting that it does. Thus you will detract from any evidence for that relative distinction by any means necessary. Those are the points you insist on calling foul: and if you will not move beyond that strict constructionist view of the Light Wing as a “form” without any other notable properties - a view predicated on your redaction of the Uru records / virtually untenable otherwise - then you may obviously continue to refuse to see this forest for those trees. As you please.
Lagi - the "mutant coolia"
Blue Dragon - the "ancient weapon"
Edge’s dragon - the “different being”
All are a part of the “Heresy dragon”, but what of that identity’s image, does it even have another distinctive template for its own corporeal form? Why would it? So naturally enough, it simply takes the image of its last incarnation… the Arm Wing. Or in other words, that cinematic is actually and only perfectly congruent with the ‘foundation’ ending.
[quote=“Solo Wing”]1) Light Wing is separate character from Edge’s dragon in the way that Edge and Azel are separate characters.
2) Light Wing is another name you’re using for Edge’s dragon in all of its forms.
3) Edge’s dragon becomes a new character called Light Wing when the transformation takes place, such as how people sometimes refer to Super Sonic as a character.
4) Light Wing is a name for Edge’s dragon if and only if it is in the Light Wing form.[/quote]
If you seriously felt there was some obscure rationale for my use of the word “character”, or you just plain object to the use of it, I’ll offer some contrition. I employed it for the connotation, not as any technicality. Again I mean it in the same way that the other prime dragon forms ARE already seen as characters. Would you have taken issue with calling Lagi a character? How about the Heresy dragon in general? Or as again the Divine Visitor.
I have simply used the descriptor “Light Wing” to connote its properties as I perceive (have here asserted) them to be. No different from how we have always been able to use the descriptor “Heresy dragon” even when referring to “Edge’s dragon” or the “Blue Dragon” or “Lagi” as the contextual subject. And its not some big problem!
As I had earlier laid enough groundwork with qualifiers like “Light Wing gene-base” or “influence of the D-Units” I’m sure I have presumed on the context more than I technically should. So again mea culpa on principle. But without cited examples of such crucial ambiguities, I still cannot help thinking you’re making this more complicated than it needs to be.
EDITION: It amounts to this - you are effectively trying to confine me to a single, strict connotation for all usages of “Light Wing”? That’s an impossible standard, and one that no other “form” labels have ever been constrained by in practice.
So it is none of those options, Light Wing is “a being far different”.
It is simply itself.
So forget all about that “character”, I’m sorry I said it. Instead simply think of it as a “role” it has in the story. And that it really should deserve a role more interesting than: Key to a “Solo Wing Dragon”.
I sense some frustration here, so I’ve just re-read through the whole topic to see if there’s something I’ve overlooked that is causing this. I think I can see your argument clearer now, so with that in mind I’ll attempt to respond to this next set of points.
To either of those options: maybe. Don’t give up.
First: please don’t be rude about this. My response may seem obtuse, but I’ve been trying hard to intelligently understand your theory. Considering the (at least) one other person who read this discussion, frelled, had difficulty understanding your theory, I’m not alone on this. I would appreciate some credit for getting this far. It is a confusing topic.
I want to clarify that when I wrote that the Ancients were “referring to just the dragon form” I was not meaning to exclude that they said about the Light Wing being more than a dragon or a possible messenger of the gods. I agree that there is a greater meaning to the Light Wing than it just being a dragon form! I probably wasn’t clear on that point.
What I should emphasize is that I don’t believe the Ancients meant that “the essence of the Light Wing is with Edge’s dragon”, something as you claimed about the Light Wing earlier in the discussion (although I’m not sure if you meant that the Ancients meant this in the Uru records).
But, I’d rather keep that part of the debate with my other points about what “Light Wing” is referring to. More on this near the end of the post.
[quote=“The Ancient”]First, the only direct reply I can offer to that question is: in the event of such a hypothetical absurdity as a disagreement over whether “Valiant Wing” should be called “Valiant Wing” or not… I would of course maintain my default neutrality, as I always have, and say that it doesn’t matter because it’s the Valiant Wing! But I cannot myself imagine ever arriving at such a reductive fixation about the usage of a singular term…
Yet since you keep framing this as an issue about the labeling of dragon “forms”, the first credible example pertinent to that point - as best I can understand it - that I thought of, is the usage of “Solo Wing”. Since the “Solo Wing Dragon” is also literally and explicitly a dragon “form”; indeed if we afford the same precedence to the word’s usage by Edge when he says “The dragon’s true form?” it would even seem that the only possible importance in that statement is the affirmation that the “Solo Wing” is expressly just a dragon “form”. Furthermore it is a label only literally given to a singular “form” from a single game in the series. But oddly enough… no one has ever had any problems with a very liberal usage of that label, transferring it to “Blue Dragon” or “Type_01” forms, and trusting to context and the assumed intelligence of their audience to cover for any semantic ambiguities. So I guess my ultimate answer to that point, is that assuming any discussion exists in a climate of good faith, I couldn’t anticipate that such technicalities would ever be a true issue?[/quote]
Trust me, labeling can become an issue and confuse discussions. One example is the dragon - what do we mean when we say Lagi, Heresy Dragon, the dragon, etc. These have been used to refer the dragon in one or more games.
Because of the many ways that the dragon can be referred to, we went through many of the articles before TWOTA4’s launch and clarified the terminology. So now, in most of the articles, the word “Lagi” will only refer to the Zwei dragon, and references to the dragon program will always be “dragon program” or “Heresy Program”, but never just “Heresy Dragon”. This clarity is important for understanding the many complex theories on TWOTA.
My only aim here has been to figure out what you mean, so while there may be a climate of good faith, that isn’t always enough for understanding (for me at least).
But before we can look at the qualities of the evidence, we need to have a criteria for what is legitimate evidence. So I guess this is really my issue - how you’re determining what is legitimate or not. It’s a question that needs to be addressed before we address the evidence’s qualities.
The way I see it there are (at least) four ways of looking at what’s canon. I’ll list them have for clarity:
Thin canon. The Windrider and Arm Wing endings are all that are required for the canon. Any other extracurricular evolution or other optional discoveries are not part of the canon.
Liberal canon? The Windrider and Arm Wing endings are all that are required for the canon. Any other extracurricular evolution or optional discoveries in the game world may or may not be part of the canon, depending on which optional thing we’re talking about.
Thick canon. The Arm Wing ending is all that is required for the canon. Optional discoveries in the game world are all part of the canon even if Edge never discovers them, which means that the Shelcoof crest exists, meaning that Zwei’s Type 01 ending must have happened. But the transformations in Saga did not necessarily happen.
Thickest canon. Everything, including all extracurricular evolution and optional discoveries in the game world happened, meaning that the Type 01 and Solo Wing endings are canon.
As I understand (and please correct me if I’m wrong), you accept (2) based on this quote and your acceptance of the Uru records:
Again, correct me if I have misinterpreted your position. I’ll respond to your other points once that’s clear.
[quote=“The Ancient”]But you’re still not quite seeing this from the angle I am Solo, it’s not about ‘possible’ forms of the dragon, this was in a formless realm - or certainly we are not speaking with ANY actual ‘dragon’ form there are we? It is a revelation of fundamental IDENTITIES, according to their intrinsic templates:
Lagi - the "mutant coolia"
Blue Dragon - the "ancient weapon"
Edge’s dragon - the “different being”
All are a part of the “Heresy dragon”, but what of that identity’s image, does it even have another distinctive template for its own corporeal form? Why would it? So naturally enough, it simply takes the image of its last incarnation… the Arm Wing. Or in other words, that cinematic is actually and only perfectly congruent with the ‘foundation’ ending.[/quote]
Okay, but can you clarify what you mean by “identities”?
I understand how Lagi, the Blue Dragon, and the Arm Wing could be each seen as identities. The Light Wing, however, does not seem to be an identity if the Arm Wing ending is true. It would have been a potential form that never became an identity, as I understand the use of the word identity. Perhaps you mean a potential identity of some sort, an identity in a possible world?
Okay, thanks for clearing that up.
By “dragon form” I mean specific forms. Stripe Wing, Dragon Pup, etc.
I wouldn’t take issue with calling Lagi a character, because he is one. Lundi names him that. So the name of the form isn’t Lagi, the name of the coolia who becomes a dragon is.
Blue Dragon is a bit more complicated though, I’ll admit, so the context there may sometimes need to be clarified. Sometimes it is used to refer to just Kyle’s dragon the character, other times just to the form. And that can cause confusion.
The Heresy Dragon is typically used to refer to the dragon in all of the games, or at least the Saturn games. It is not the name of a form either.
But anyway, now that I understand what you meant, I’ll treat those references to the Light Wing as a character as unessential to your argument.
That’s what confused me. The name “Heresy Dragon” is linked to the dragon program + physical dragon in the Saturn games so its fairly unambiguous (until we start adding more properties). Lundi talks about the mission of the Heresy Dragon, linked to both Lagi and Edge’s dragon (he begs Edge to help his friend), so the name “Heresy Dragon” fits both (whether or not they were separate dragons - Lundi thought they had the same soul at least).
Whereas Light Wing is referred to in the games as certain properties. A dragon form, a being far different, and a possible messenger of the gods - but not necessarily other properties that you’ve asserted it to have (more on this below).
[quote=“The Ancient”]As I had earlier laid enough groundwork with qualifiers like “Light Wing gene-base” or “influence of the D-Units” I’m sure I have presumed on the context more than I technically should. So again mea culpa on principle. But without cited examples of such crucial ambiguities, I still cannot help thinking you’re making this more complicated than it needs to be.
EDITION: It amounts to this - you are effectively trying to confine me to a single, strict connotation for all usages of “Light Wing”? That’s an impossible standard, and one that no other “form” labels have ever been constrained by in practice.
So it is none of those options, Light Wing is “a being far different”.
It is simply itself.[/quote]
I outlined four clear definitions, but the new one you’ve presented (a being far different, simply itself) doesn’t attempt to fit into anything clear, just that vague quote from the Uru records, and that isn’t going to help my understanding of your argument. If it’s a being far different, what do these differences entail? All I’m asking for is clarity.
I’m not asking for a single strict definition in all circumstances. If you thinking Light Wing refers to different things in different circumstances, then I just need to know how its used in each circumstance.
However, digging through this topic, I think I’ve found the quote which outlines your position:
This is the part about your use of “Light Wing” I’m confused about.
I accept that the other forms of Edge’s dragon contain similarities to the Light Wing form.
I accept Edge’s dragon may have been intended to become the Light Wing by the Ancients.
But to say that the Light Wing was “already a part of Edge’s dragon” is where I’m not sure.
If you’re right, and the Light Wing was already part of the Edge’s dragon, what does this mean for the Uru records?
My question: Are you saying that the Ancients were referring to other parts of Edge’s dragon beyond just the Light Wing form all or some of the time in the Uru records when they said “Light Wing”? If so, in which passages?
How the Ancients are using “Light Wing” is essential to how we interpret the Uru records.
No worries.
And I agree, the Light Wing does have some role to play that is more than just “key to the Solo Wing”.
I do not wish to be, but in practice… that’s about what it took to get your attention on that point wasn’t it?
And as I had asked you not to force me to argue semantics? Crossing that threshold, all permutations are implicit in the inception, and I already know when it is a zero-sum proposition. Which is to say: it is rare when it is not. Nothing may ultimately be resolved at that level, which is precisely why people will intuitively use it as a stalling tactic. And so:
Given that my discrete clarifications have still not been enough for you, we may have some fundamental rift over the very concepts of “semantics” or even “arbitrary”, as applied to this practical case. So to answer that I may need to answer such underlying confusion first. I will also nominate a third core concept: “corroboration”.
As a matter of semantics, every debate over literal information is of course a matter of semantics. The neutral stance is that a reference with multiple possible connotations, may represent any of those intents. And any hypothesis should ultimately contain some basis for choosing one intent over others; that is a constructive form of semantics. It is the subtractive form that the common usage of “that’s semantics” connotes; where the stance becomes biased to: a single reference may not represent a single intent. Example:
[quote=“Solo Wing”]I’m not sure if we should read too much into that connection. The Divine Visitor did not send the dragon (the Destruction Faction did), so the dragon wasn’t a messenger of that visiting god that the he/she was aware of. If anything, the dragon was a “messenger of the Destruction Faction”.
The Ancients may have simply been referring to the gods that they believed in. The Light Wing was so bad ass that they believed it to be god-like.[/quote]
Yet the dragon [Heresy program] itself unambiguously states that its existence is tied to that Divine Visitor?
(“I exist to lead / I could not exist without the…”)
I’m honestly just fatigued with all the “may haves” and “could bes” Solo; I am the one presenting a case, yet you keep nominating alternatives that are just as “arbitrary” - if not often more so - as though they will independently defeat my own interpretations. You choose to put me on the defensive by implying a position that whenever you express any other plausible intent, that defeats my own nominated intent by default. But such a scorched earth policy of detraction can be applied to virtually every notion and theory ever presented, with the very same result.
Such is the realm of semantics we have been mired in: but everything could mean something totally different!
Am I wrong?
Such “arbitrary” conjectures are made as a matter of routine, we both know that to be true. But will you truly claim that hypothesis is any more “legitimate” than anything I’ve presented; and that you have been so censorious of?
Okay? AND?? What does all that add to the core meaning of the Heresy program’s agenda and the Divine Visitor’s role in concluding the ultimate mission? How would it bear on this Light Wing context one way or the other? How does this Light Wing context detract from that Solo Wing context one way or the other? Other than of course, my implicit assertion that ending the game as the Solo Wing Dragon would not represent the ‘one true’ conclusion of that story?
My case is for a larger pattern, but this debate has become about another pattern; as that seems the clear nucleus around which every attempted disqualification revolves. I think as hard-core gamers most of us have become conditioned to that standard: you don’t get to see the “real ending” without being a bad-ass or a masochist (or both) right? But I honestly think it would be very cool, and very befitting of this series, if that’s simply not the case here. In that sense everything’s just a big Easter-egg hunt, after all Panzer Dragoon is truly chock-full of prizes and wonders isn’t it?
Yes, though not quite liberal enough, and I said this way back at the start: it’s in the connotation of my word “foundation”. We may only find optimal congruence when considering those foundation endings - which assumes the Arm Wing for Azel, yet may even more generally include everything except epilogue D for Zwei - so it’s not even necessary to isolate those “possible worlds” from one another, it is purely about defining the baselines for the sequence and motivations of events. If the semantics of one of the extracurricular events compete with the foundation, they are overruled. As in: it was not necessary for Lagi to have evolved to the Type_01 in order to defeat Guardian D and disable Shelcoof. Therefore any details that seem consistent with epilogue A, but appear to conflict with epilogue D, may still be consistent, because that is the “foundation”. We may simply assume those details to be adjusted accordingly for other versions of events; with the caveat that they cannot overturn the thematic results of that foundational understanding.
I had been attempting to qualify my mindset about these things a while back precisely to forestall such reductive argumentation. In terms of details there’s only a handful of fresh ideas in all of this, and I’ve been sitting on most of these notions for years in some form or another. I think most of them have even been expressed a few times, but I didn’t press the points because I’m all about the “corroborations”. So I will not, I cannot, give you the answer you appear to be asking for about “legitimate” or “acceptable” evidence Solo. For one thing because you appear to regard unqualified conjectures as “legitimate” or not according to criteria I will never be able to follow anyway; except that well illustrates the principle: it would be a fallacy to define any binary condition for “legitimate / not-legitimate” in the first place. All evidence will (and must) still be weighed individually according to its relative prominence, and its pertinence to a given theme.
You know, after reading the translations and updated information, I found the story to be even more believable simply because freedom is such a relatively young idea. Holistic thinking is too prevalent in the minds of many for it to not become dangerous, and far too much is done in the name of efficiency towards pointless ends.
Sorry for not following the debate. Lol. I think you have a very unique point of view Heretic. One you should share more often.
Dammit Geoffrey! You wont even give up a single opinion about this?
I’m sorry if I’ve also been mean to your poor old Sky Rider, but seriously, would you REALLY like it better thinking some Ancient came out of hibernation only to get picked off by a DRONE?
I may be a Heretic, but I’m also Ancient and that offends me deeply… lol
I’m saying it, just let go of yourself and be one with the universe. Because it’s all groovy and stuff…
Hear the word of the dragon brother!
For the overgrown lizard knows all.
I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. I’m not interested in how the evidence links to one or more themes. Evidence is evidence. Panzer Dragoon isn’t just a story to me - it’s a world. So, while I don’t look for an overall theme in the real world, neither do I in the Panzer Dragoon world.
This is similar to the creators intent issue. I don’t have any desire to get into their heads, as much as make the facts the games present as with work together consistently.
[quote=“The Ancient”]I do not wish to be, but in practice… that’s about what it took to get your attention on that point wasn’t it?
And as I had asked you not to force me to argue semantics? Crossing that threshold, all permutations are implicit in the inception, and I already know when it is a zero-sum proposition. Which is to say: it is rare when it is not. Nothing may ultimately be resolved at that level, which is precisely why people will intuitively use it as a stalling tactic. And so:[/quote]
All I was asking for was clarity. What do you mean in certain contexts when you use certain words? What do you think the Ancients mean in certain contexts when they say certain words? Answers to those are not zero-sum, they are essential for me to understand you.
My questions from my last post mostly remain unanswered but at this point I have little desire to continue the discussion. If you don’t want to clarify what you mean by the words you’re using that is.
If someone else wants to give it a crack, go for it. But I think I’m done.
[quote=“Solo Wing”]First: please don’t be rude about this. My response may seem obtuse, but I’ve been trying hard to intelligently understand your theory. Considering the (at least) one other person who read this discussion, frelled, had difficulty understanding your theory, I’m not alone on this. I would appreciate some credit for getting this far. It is a confusing topic.
I want to clarify that when I wrote that the Ancients were “referring to just the dragon form” I was not meaning to exclude that they said about the Light Wing being more than a dragon or a possible messenger of the gods. I agree that there is a greater meaning to the Light Wing than it just being a dragon form! I probably wasn’t clear on that point.
What I should emphasize is that I don’t believe the Ancients meant that “the essence of the Light Wing is with Edge’s dragon”, something as you claimed about the Light Wing earlier in the discussion (although I’m not sure if you meant that the Ancients meant this in the Uru records). [/quote]
Of course I give credit, as again I’m not upset about being tasked to clarify. It’s the combination of needing to repeat the same points of clarification, along with the consistent contributions of (arbitrarily) alternative conjecture, that mount up to a mixed message. One that’s challenging not to read a little like: Cool story bro! But I wasn’t really paying attention to it because I like to see things THIS WAY…"
I mean if I’m just being humored here… thanks yet, no thanks? It is as much because I know your intelligence and comprehension already Solo - and you clearly have a grasp on the greater substance of my points - that it is difficult to understand such recalcitrance on certain technical measures in my own turn.
You asked a clear question there, so it’s a better start. Yet I cannot imagine from where or how that particular confusion arose, it has never been any part of my assertion that “the ancients” intended the Light Wing’s essence to be a part of “Edge’s dragon”. I believe I even represented that the dragon (or Heresy program) itself would have made that choice to “bond” with the Light Wing gene-base, not the other way around.
But as you acknowledged the prominence of greater meaning in those Uru texts, AND refrained from positing an alternative interpretation… ironically enough I will now set them aside entirely. For the moment it has no bearing on my argument, because I may finally get back to “clause 1”. The question of why Edge’s dragon starts in an “inferior” form to the one Lundi’s dragon may have ended its adventure with, or even the form Keil’s dragon evidently begins as well as ends with. It has been asked many times, and the only competing answer seems to be a very vaguely defined parallel to Lagi’s origins, without any solid rationale for why it would have been necessary. That answer has always been dependent on unqualified conjecture to supply a rationale of any sort.
In real terms the only possible congruence afforded to the ‘re-evolution’ explanation, must come from the assumption that it is a consistent requirement; as in Eins’ Blue Dragon also would have needed to start over from scratch. In which case it was still conjecture based on only a singular allusion, rather than any facts or other corroborations. However, accepting Sestren’s memory orb as a clear corroboration that the “D Type_01” was “activated” shortly after the Heresy program is detected again; and also as the only record of such an “activation”, we will no longer have any literal rationale for believing the Blue Dragon was yet another coolia spawned evolution, or some such parallel. Which is itself indirectly corroborated by the very fact that all representations and references to the “dragon-pup” form are patently related to Lagi, and only Lagi.
Even with that hypothetical congruence, the ‘re-evolution’ explanation for Edge’s dragon is sketchy at best. Without it, the D-Units are ‘literally’ the only alternative. And they are a positively excellent alternative, since, you know… they’re a gene-base for a freaking dragon right!? So seriously, where is this big hang-up about it coming from? It is the only rational explanation we’ve ever been handed. But next post I’ll deal with that “form” technicality a little further.
That may explain it all. As I don’t think I can see any way to relate to the rationale of that statement. I only want to know what’s really going on. lol
Which must presume either or both of those ‘alternatives’, pragmatically speaking. But yeah, that’s now the second time I was feeling I was finally past the defensive necessities only to be hit with a greater obstruction. I actually appreciate the explicit sentiment Solo. Peace.
[quote=“The Ancient”]Dammit Geoffrey! You wont even give up a single opinion about this?
I’m sorry if I’ve also been mean to your poor old Sky Rider, but seriously, would you REALLY like it better thinking some Ancient came out of hibernation only to get picked off by a DRONE?
I may be a Heretic, but I’m also Ancient and that offends me deeply… lol
I’m saying it, just let go of yourself and be one with the universe. Because it’s all groovy and stuff…
Hear the word of the dragon brother!
For the overgrown lizard knows all. [/quote]
I like the idea of a flawed human being trying to become something he’s not and trying to make a difference. It’s a classic case of projection on my part. However, the idea that the Sky Rider was an Ancient is very possible. Of course, it’s more likely that he was a drone when looking at all the evidence. I thought that it would have been more fitting if he the Sky Rider had been Lundi, but that’s just me. When I see the viability of an idea, I never discount it.
Personally, I don’t like to live in the past too much, but I do love stories with long story arcs where past actions have ripple effects on future events. Like in Babylon 5 for example where Londo has a dream about the future. At the time you really have no idea what’s going on, but later it all makes sense. He was given a chance to avoid his fate as well, yet he chose to walk down the path that necessity laid down for him. It seems that a lot of stories have lost that.
You know, there’s always real life… The biggest mystery of them all. I’m curious about how a 3D reality is just a mere facet of a 4D one and beyond. Lol.
I’m thinking about delving back into Silent Hill as well, but even that’s no longer true to its roots since the old team behind it disbanded.
I think we might get too lost in nuance when it comes to studying all this.
