What can I say, I’m an all or nothing personality Geoffrey. If I’m going to be appraising nuance at all, I’ll be appraising every last scrap of nuance I am able to gather. It’s all a game in the end, just like ‘real life’.
Hell I feel like it’s taken me half a lifetime (nominally) to arrive at the same functional nihilism that most people seem to possess innately.
For me personally, it has to be worth it before I pursue something. There’s almost too much to learn. It’s just a shame that we have to profit from what we do somehow most of the time.
My responses weren’t attempts to humour you. They were actual requests for clarity or attempts to find inconsistencies in your theory. I’m not sure why you thought the alternatives I’ve mentioned were intended to debunk your theory in cases where I didn’t explicitly say so; they were simply alternative possibilities. But never mind that now.
With that in mind, if there’s still anything in my responses that doesn’t make sense, I’m happy to clarify.
Okay, before I finish off here, I’ll just outline why I think this is confusing. You mentioned that the Heresy Program says he exists to lead the Divine Visitor. But if the Preservation Faction scientists weren’t referring to Edge’s dragon (or part of it) in their logs when they said the Light Wing was possibly “a messenger of the gods” and if they weren’t referring to the Heresy Program/Dragon in some fashion, then there seems to be missing link between what the Preservation Faction scientists meant in the logs and what the Heresy Program existed for. And I’m not sure, from reading this topic, if you’ve outlined a way for there to be a causal connection (in terms of story events, told or untold) between those two.
But if you only meant there’s a thematic link, but not a causal link, then that’s another story.
Unfortunately, you may end up disappointed on that front. I think many of features of the Panzer Dragoon story, including those found in the mainline story, don’t have deep truths to them in the minds of the developers other than the face value meanings that we’re presented with. The Sky Rider being a prominent example, since he is indisputably part of the canonical storyline. So, while I’m eager to hear what the developers have to say in an interview or write in a guidebook, I’m less keen to delve into their minds, which are probably less made up about a lot of things than you might hope.
The way everything doesn’t fit into a rigid theme, and how there’s plenty of loose ends to fire the imagination, is one of the reasons why I like the Panzer Dragoon series so much. The world feels much larger than the linear storyline; each dragon rider’s story is a mere dot of something vast that no one will ever understand in full.
[quote=“Solo Wing”]And I’m not sure, from reading this topic, if you’ve outlined a way for there to be a causal connection (in terms of story events, told or untold) between those two.
But if you only meant there’s a thematic link, but not a causal link, then that’s another story.[/quote]
In the sense that only the symbolism speaks for itself, that is indeed the case. The causal connection must be in-part conjectured; yet any and all status-quo conjectures have static precedence - as you have quite adequately illustrated - and so I have primarily only been concerned with the case for benefit of the doubt.
I initially brought up semantics as a direct reply to a singular point of contention, which in reply you transferred my target to the debate in general terms. Even so, it applies well enough in this respect: I already know the case can never ultimately be won or lost on that score, so fighting to defend individual terms and singular turns of phrase from being regarded as a kill-switch, is a waste of my psychic energy.
[quote=“Solo Wing”]Unfortunately, you may end up disappointed on that front. I think many of features of the Panzer Dragoon story, including those found in the mainline story, don’t have deep truths to them in the minds of the developers other than the face value meanings that we’re presented with. The Sky Rider being a prominent example, since he is indisputably part of the canonical storyline. So, while I’m eager to hear what the developers have to say in an interview or write in a guidebook, I’m less keen to delve into their minds, which are probably less made up about a lot of things than you might hope.
The way everything doesn’t fit into a rigid theme, and how there’s plenty of loose ends to fire the imagination, is one of the reasons why I like the Panzer Dragoon series so much. The world feels much larger than the linear storyline; each dragon rider’s story is a mere dot of something vast that no one will ever understand in full.[/quote]
It’s too late for that particular disappointment…
This thread began with me essentially telling you that it’s just a game remember? But you just wouldn’t let sleeping ancients lie Solo, for which I am very glad. Ultimately all I did was decide to completely set aside my preconceptions and prejudices (as best I could) and instead assume that every last distinction in that wallpaper may be taken literally. Purely to see where it lead me. As it so happened… it led to everything important making sense all together, without any loose ends of any real concern.
Which is all just a nice little surprise for me, not something I had ever anticipated. It’s like bonus integrity! So it’s really only in hindsight that I’m able to feel that perhaps my own greatest mistake all along was in not presuming a high enough standard.
You literally goaded me into this, and I can only say thanks again. But you have now clearly registered your contempt for the criteria I employ for “making sense” of things. And so there we are.
I’ll offer one last observation on the subtext of your responses, to make of what you will Solo. It seems like you may still be unable to consider this conceit as anything except a lesser of all possible worlds. So if you will always require competing details of the ‘supplemental’ events to take precedence, then I’m sure it would never make sense to you regardless. Said conceit was my starting gun, the Light Wing just happens to represent the nominal finishing line; or in practice the caboose in this freight-train of thought I got hit by. After resolving all other loose ends, the Light Wing can (for me it must) simply be accepted at face value as well.
I think that’s where my problem with your theory ultimately lies. Symbolism alone is too vague on it’s own to make causal sense within the context of the fictional world. If you’re able to flesh out a causal possibility, your theory will be stronger for it (regardless of whether that causal connection is made up to fill the gaps or draws on in game evidence).
Does a case have to ultimately won or lost using semantics for semantics to be a useful tool? Semantics can be just a way of clarifying what we mean (rather than some top down theory of what words mean in all contexts). So while “Light Wing” doesn’t have to refer to the same thing in all contexts, we do need to explain what we mean by certain words in certain circumstances for them to be meaningful to other people. Communication.
Contempt is probably too strong a word. Insufficient would be a more appropriate word for how I’m seeing it.
My position continues to be:
The Arm Wing, Light Wing, and Solo Wing transformation endings of Saga seem to be on equal footing (in that none of them are lesser than the two other possible worlds).
The non-Type 01 endings of Zwei appear to be lesser possible worlds than the Type 01 ending if we consider the optional discoveries in Saga (such as the Uru records, Rhoda’s music box, Genesis Chamber crest) to be canonical, since for the Genesis Chamber crest to exist, the Type 01 ending had to have happened. And I wasn’t convinced by your attempt to separate out some optional elements from others (sorry).
Not sure if it is mentioned before or already in the encyclopedia :
it would be nice to include and analyze the conditions under which our dwgn transforms in cute overload morphing awe in saga. It seems like the dragon adopted in some parts of the game to its opponents like an upgraded mirror, so it seems relevant to me.(That came up in my mind as I pondered with neko on the Desert Cave).
Garil Desert
Oasis
Desert Cave _ Gigra (having several forms of transformation):
→ Dragon Valiant Wing (having several forms of transformation, duh)
Chapter 18 Arangata . Attack the roots
INFESTED GRIG ORIG (sweet power !)
→ Dragon Arm Wing (sweet power !)
There seems to be something in gigra/Valiant Wing comparison. I’ve added the possibility of the dragon copying/being influenced by the gigra in the main entry for The Dragon and it should probably be mentioned in the gigra and Valiant Wing entries when those are written.
I’m not sure about the Infested Grig Orig/Arm Wing comparison though. What makes the Arm Wing compare to the Grig Orig other than being powerful (aren’t all the bosses that match up with dragon transformations powerful?)