Dragon Forms

It works, when perhaps nothing else possibly (or even plausibly) can. But to put a finer point on all this, it began as essentially a thought experiment… and at this stage it’s the results from that experiment I’m now evangelizing, as much as the idea itself. :anjou_happy:

DETAILS! lol … But OK, that was actually concerned as much with other brief flashes of the Blue Dragon as future, rather than the Memory Orbs as past. As you say it’s Sestren’s view not the dragon’s, yet they are facets projected on / from the same continuum. One may be asserting it’s intended destiny, while the other is objectively cataloging permutations of that same intent. There is a definite hint of classical rivalry in Sestren’s and the Heresy dragon’s relationship. A sense of awareness on the part of both that their existence revolves around a binary outcome…

Finally back to the Light Wing, Azel, the Divine Visitor… and thus what I think the rest of this actually means for solving the core puzzles of the whole story.

I mentioned Sestren’s dragon form being original, I’m not sure how important that may be to much else yet, but it is good to have an accurate understanding on principle; which I didn’t for a long time. The second clear derailment for my own earliest impressions was from a single literal lie we are told, by Zadoc: when he gives us the Book of Skiad Ops Endow, he also says it was written by the “last dragon rider”. I understood Zwei to be a prequel, so for a long time I thought Endow was Kyle, because at that time I’d never known his name either. Of course it’s clear from the last few pages that it can only be Lundi, but at first the technicality got jumbled in the general information stream for me. And I didn’t even remember about that for a long time, not that it directly alters many other elements, but another misconception of context nonetheless.

But was Zadoc’s lie just a simple system error, or broadly speaking another interface distortion? If we take it at face value, it could mean that the Seekers, at that time, did not believe the Eins dragon was the same as Lagi…

Remember when Edge’s dragon first evolves after the Gigra fight, and Gash says “this must be the one” (another caveat to that, but not now). I believe we have a depiction of the Seekers themselves being very distrustful of the nature of just any old dragon. So I think they also might have some specific reasons in mind. But what’s most pertinent about that, is the suggestion that Lundi presumably couldn’t recall or articulate his own visions clearly enough that the Seekers had a clear match to that Tower Activation Incident. And presumably he wasn’t still with them when it happened. It’s inconceivable that they wouldn’t have had a lot of information on the event itself, by the time of PDS.

So keep this idea in mind: the Seekers know a lot more than they ever got to reveal to us directly, but they also have a lot of it wrong. Consider that in virtually the same breath Gash is telling us about how dragons terminated all the active ruins and Towers, he also tells us, with conviction, that Edge’s dragon is the Divine Visitor.

OK my third derailment, is the serious one! As I’ve already asserted in some ways, the return to the Underground Ruins of Uru, searching for Azel after she disappears, is one of the most crucial junctures of the whole plot. Azel is both the game’s title character and the story’s Macguffin. After recovering, perhaps miraculously, from the second great trauma in a few days, and discovering emotions she knows nothing about; Azel is compelled to look for answers in the only place she can imagine, the location where her existence began. Azel is searching for truth, and in following her we will find some as well.

I’ve given this a lot of thought, and I believe there is one ‘correct’ order to read the Uru Records in. The chronology clearly breaks down if you attempt any consistent left-right or right-left pattern anyway; but this way will actually follow a snaking, reverse S pattern:

We?ll soon have permission to implant that mechanism. With it, we should easily clear the targeted value. However, there is a serious defect.

Drone F07 - Thought Index 98 Failure. Drone F16 - Thought Index 94 Failure.

Our latest subject is doing fine. That problem has already been solved by manipulating its lifespan. We shall name this drone Azel.

A week has passed since the attack. The drone has not been found. She was probably stolen. She has not been completed yet. I only hope she does not become an instrument of destruction.

Report regarding the Light Wing. We have at last succeeded in developing the ultimate form of the dragon. But it is more than a dragon. It is a being far different? Something? perhaps even superior to ourselves? A messenger of the Gods.

The Institute, which considered the development of the Light Wing, a renegade project, has ordered us to delete all records regarding the Light Wing? But we have decided to record and seal all data regarding the Light Wing into one memory plate divided into 12 pieces called D Units, and scatter them throughout the continent? hoping one day a later generation would inherit our work?

Truth, such as it is, right from the ancient horses’ mouth. It doesn’t get any more consequential and focused than this. Because of the gravity these records have on the narrative, I felt each piece of information should be telling us something definite, and together they are telling us a central absolute. I’m more sure of that than ever, but I was caught by perhaps the one red herring in them, and followed the dead branch of evidence. Because there are two drones mentioned, I wanted to think the other one meant something as well, and the only other drone that could matter was the Sky Rider.

I mean it’s so simple right? After getting jerked around by fate and factions, two dragons with two drones finally reunite for the purpose only they together can fulfill - or sort of; with some substitute help along the way. I think every theory tends to look for unifying themes, and that seemed a clear one. Azel opens the gate, the Heresy dragon confronts Sestren, WE press the button. It’s a fairy tale ending, case closed!

Of course not, but I think half the theorizing I’ve ever done has been motivated by the search for a good replacement for that unifying theme ever since. So not to presume the motives of anyone else, but I’m presenting that both so that others may understand where this is coming from personally, yet also because I often see the same basic tendency in the form of material other theories present. So hopefully the motive itself will make sense.

That helps illustrate the very heart of the matter, because no, drawing such a distinction between the Light Wing and the Solo Wing is not actually arbitrary, not a bit! Yet perhaps we’ve all managed to miss why? :anjou_wow:

And I even indicated the basis for that in the post you were replying to - the pride of place the D-Units and other material claim in the core narrative - so that may show just how elusive the understanding still wants to be. But I need to start over with some of that anyway:

First thing is, I had conflated my memory of the text on the D-Units - which don’t say too much - with the single paragraph in the manual about the D-Unit panel; and it’s “rumors of the fantastic powers generated when the units are fully assembled.” Which then brings up the fact of why it needs to be mentioned in the manual at all… because there’s a big chunk of real-estate on the menu screen dedicated to graphically tracking how many pieces of the Light Wing you’ve collected. That’s how central the Light Wing icon is on a system level, we’re actually viewing pieces of the true final form all along - and for that matter, the Dragon Phoenix, which is the all-round most devastating form of attack in the game, explicitly echoes the Light Wing form as well?

But once again, the IDEA of Light Wing itself occupies a central place in the very story. So in every possible sense, it is a core theme in Panzer Dragoon Saga, and it is entirely unique to that game. In those terms the Solo Wing could not really be more different, it is entirely represented by allusion and abstract mechanics. Hell the game even allows you to FUBAR getting it, if you sink Shelcoof for good before getting the dragon crest - leaving nothing to do there, ever again… that’s almost like some anti-symbolism there. Did they want you to be able to literally bury Lagi? And there’s nothing mysterious about the IDEA of referencing the forms of a few old friends there, only the mechanics employed are suggestive, but again all abstractly so.

Don’t get me wrong though, to be clear again I don’t even want to trivialize the symbolism of the Solo Wing at all. In fact I think it’s a lot more important, or certainly descriptive, than the Type_01 transformation in Zwei - which may be an outright incongruity. There’s a great deal of potential suggestion about the Solo Wing, which if anything also now seems more consistent than ever. But that’s another discussion.

To express it bluntly: Light Wing has DIRECT ties to the central themes of PDS’s story and mechanics; Solo Wing has virtually none at all. But also, and this is crucial, that very theme of the Light Wing is exclusive to that game. So hopefully that will finally close the circle…

Azel - the only being known that can force open a path to Sestren’s inner sanctum. When her origins are revealed we find out that she was ‘born’ in the same place and of the same expertise that also created;

Light Wing - an “ultimate” dragon form, that it’s own creators think is a “messenger of the gods”. Disobeying orders they bequeath that dragon form to a future generation: and in that generation the dragon that indeed inherits their work chooses as it’s rider a youth who’s life has been miraculously saved by a;

Divine Visitor - in fact the only force in this world that may resist the chains of fate that bind both Sestren and the world together in an eternity. And by the dragon’s own account, the very reason and purpose of it’s existence.

These three characters BELONG to Panzer Dragoon Saga, without any one of them, it’s story could / would not be told. There are other visitors to the story, but many have had their own stories as well. The most elusive unifying theme of all, is that there is no hidden unifying theme!

All three games are equally unique circumstances, the dragon is acting on completely different immediate crises every time. The Heresy dragon is a special agent of destiny, rather than a special forces commando. Lagi is a desperate gambit and Lundi is able to be it’s rider because of it’s unusual origins and their bond forged over time. Edge’s dragon “chooses” him because it exists to lead the Divine Visitor, which has now become a part of Edge. So what of the most mysterious dragon of all?

Activation of D Type 01? confirmed?

Lets just be pedantic for a moment and accept that is exactly what it should be. The D Type_01, by the only facts we know, must be the Armored Blue Dragon that appears in Panzer Dragoon. So why is it Sestren should be remarking on it like that? First the “impurity” is detected once more - and as it happens that is stated concurrent with an image of the Dark Dragon already flying through a tunnel - THEN an “activation” of the Type_01 is detected?

Now consider all the information pertaining first to drones, and then dragons as well, that we’ve been given. About half of all the material revolves around a conspicuous theme of control. Drones are special tools almost exclusively created for interfacing with more complex or difficult bio-engineered systems. Dragons - unlike all other known pure-type monsters, which just simply function - are “not easily handled by ordinary men”.

Atolm was “prepared” for Azel in the ancient age, and even early on she speaks to Edge about the powerful bond that must occur between a dragon and it’s rider. Azel herself is like a custom made key to the core protected functions of the Tower of Uru, the ancients aren’t big on allowing their most powerful weapons and installations to be fully autonomous.

So even as powerful and resourceful as the Heresy program is, it’s credible that it still may not be able to override such an intrinsic and crucial safeguard as a highest-of-high-tech dragon’s ‘protect key’ by will alone, and not with perhaps a very short window of opportunity. Perhaps it’s even a triviality for it to commandeer the dragon’s body, but it’d still be stuck in a lifeless vehicle without a key to the ignition. And from the only info we’ve been given, the usual key to a dragon, is a drone.

But the Heresy program IS very resourceful, unique even. We cannot know what the full nature of it’s relationship was to the Sky Rider, but what we do see before that rider expires, is a strong projection of images and will directly from it to Keil. Would a drone be able to imbue it’s own powers and protocols to a human? Probably not normally… but with an immortal sentient lifeforce that needs another rider to continue it’s immediate fight in the mix, that doesn’t seem too far fetched to me.

So consider how this situation would look if ALL of these entities are indeed distinct. The Heresy program is an indomitable force bent on an act of defiance, which it will carry forth by whatever means it can find. The Blue Dragon is a form and a function, but also perhaps a pattern of intelligence and intent of itself. Lagi is a rather special coolia, initially a physical being and host for the Heresy program but perhaps also incorporated into the collective of will, at the time when it’s corporeal being is sacrificed to the needs of the Heresy program’s objective. Edge’s dragon has gone through a deliberate transformation, in order to bond with the Light Wing, and become the liaison to the only force capable of ending Sestren’s dominion decisively.

By the time of Azel, ‘our dragon’ seemingly SHOULD have at least four distinct facets. Interesting that’s just what it reveals right before the end then, isn’t it? :anjou_love:

The Divine Visitor and the Light Wing are both peculiar to Azel, as is herself. It is their story, even as it is the conclusion of the Heresy dragon’s story. That Dragon indeed existed to lead the Divine Visitor, the truth was never hidden from us. That it’s peculiarities can seem so at odds with the actions and characteristics of the other manifestations of this collective force, is only to be expected, if they are not - nor were they ever - precisely the same.

So… that’s the foundation at least. Even with Panzer Dragoon we can’t expect everything to be perfect, but I honestly see this framework as seamless. I think it can withstand almost anything thrown at it, with hardly a dent to the chassis. I’ll even BEG anyone and everyone for criticism, anything at all. And this still isn’t even half the various secondary ramifications I’ve already considered, there’s still huge mysteries that remain as shrouded as ever, but most of the overt dissonances that used to bother me seem to fit together without much trouble now. Which then has a knock-on effect on virtually any other speculations.

While I don’t have time to properly analyse all of this right now (and probably won’t for another two weeks), I have read your points.

There is one point I’ll address now before I forget to mention it, and that is: have you considered the important story elements of PDS as more than just what we’re told, but what we’re also shown? What I mean is, with the Light Wing, it is mentioned in the records in Uru. Records that you don’t have to read (I think). Similarly, we are shown many things that lead to the Solo Wing, including a whole room (the Genesis Chamber), and the Red Ruins which basically exist for the Solo Wing. So, what I’m trying to say is, important story elements may be told by us experiencing them just as much as by reading about them. Panzer Dragoon has always been a very visual experience after all.

Something to think about about anyway. I’ll address all of this properly later though.

Half of my last post was still concerned with things shown… so all I can really say is that it seems we must simply disagree about discrete priorities. Ultimately everyone cherry picks what they want from all the details, I’ve generally tried to be scrupulous about acknowledging all the options I’m aware of even when I do so.

If you are objecting to these conceits generally(?), then you prefer to trivialize the Light Wing itself, as seemingly everyone always has. But I haven’t said that much one way or the other about the Solo Wing Dragon scenario here, yet you seem to be suggesting I am somehow remiss by giving great regard to one particular subject that is both shown AND told; over one that is virtually only shown?

Not trivialising the Light Wing, so much as saying is on a similarly important level in the story as the Solo Wing. The Light Wing was the ultimate dragon to the Ancients; the Solo Wing took that ultimate form, Edge’s dragon’s ability to morph on the fly, and its original Zwei forms, to create a “more ultimate” dragon. This likely wasn’t part of the plan of the Ancients, but the Heresy Program taking advantage of new forms that were available. From the Self-Evolution entry in PDO’s encyclopaedia:

“While the exact mechanism for self-evolution has been long lost in the mists of history, it is thought that the dragons have the ability to constantly rewrite their own evolutionary programs through battle experience and the collection of genetic material.”

My point about the Light Wing being shown and talked about vs the Solo Wing being only shown, is really just that less examples of something happening doesn’t make it less likely of happening. It’s more about what types of evidence we should consider acceptable evidence.

Well as just a generalized criticism, I can’t do anything else with that right now. Other than assert I am not guilty of failing to consider anything in those terms. I’ve presented my case to persuade, like anyone else would, and as I’ve also already asserted I believe it will stand up to subsequent scrutiny. In essence you’re presenting another dismissal of motivation at the moment, rather than any specific literal / logical challenge. Which is fine, but that’s a secondary argument.

Staying hung-up on that SW=LW thing is not really relevant to me directly anymore, but since it’s still plainly an issue that must be gotten past, I’ll have another reply for you.

Perhaps we should halt the discussion until i’ve replied to all these points first, which (as mentioned before) probably won’t be for another week or two as I’m quite busy at the moment. But it would good if you could summarise your thesis so it’s clearer what I’m addressing. My understanding: the PDS Solo Wing and PDZ Type 01 transformations aren’t consequential for the story, but the Light Wing is (and one/some of the Zwei endings?). If you think you have a strong argument here, maybe we could compile it into a theory for the site later on.

Anyway, I’ll be back later to reply to this topic properly.

In a word, yes. Stating the core original conceit again: the dragon form you complete PDZ in; and any extracurricular evolution you’ve achieved in PDS; have zero consequence to the story arc itself. That may be seen as a literal fact, the story is fully complete with only Windrider and Arm Wing representing the dragon’s final form in Zwei and Azel, respectively. And so…

Yes(ish). But also no, not as I think you may still be interpreting this. The Light Wing Dragon transformation is equally immaterial to the story. And it has nothing to do with a competition over which of those two is the more ultimate dragon! I’ll even stipulate that the Solo Wing Dragon is overall and indisputably bigger, badder, and better than the Light Wing Dragon OK? As far as I’m concerned the standard class model is also the best dressed dragon in the game, at least right along with Atolm… :anjou_happy:

It has been necessary to contrast the two purely because the Light Wing has always existed in the Solo Wing’s shadow, in virtually every debate and speculative context that has ever been represented here. And I’ve always intuitively objected to that, I think the perspective is upside down. And I will assert that the conceit that is based in must always return to a presumption that the ‘Blue Dragon’ is supposed to be the dragon’s final form, even when there is no true commonality of context in any of the games for How and Why it actually happens. It is metaphorically a faith based argument.

If the Solo Wing transformation is merely an affirmation of the natural order of progression the dragon must always achieve, that will end up expressing an A-Z argument that indeed trivializes the points between. Or if the peculiarities of the Solo Wing transformation, and the resulting ultimate characteristics, are to carry any consequence and integrity on behalf of it’s place in the scenario, then every other element peculiar to that manifestation potentially carries equal importance. Yet the faith based conceit, of this status quo, becomes an inevitably circular argument that inevitably tries to have it both ways. Certainly it always has.

I think there’s a great irony there actually: taking the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing so for granted, only serves to blind us to many of the possibilities of it’s true significance.

Again that’s all mainly tangential Solo, but since the main challenge you presented was the idea I’ve overlooked or dismissed evidence for the Solo Wing’s consequence to the story, I’ll offer one direct challenge in return: make that case.

Articulate How and Why the Solo Wing Dragon transformation contributes to the core narrative of Panzer Dragoon Saga. Or even the outcome of the story arc of the series.

Essentially my case is for how and why the Light Wing IS A CHARACTER in Azel. And I’ve explained its “direct” (please note that qualifier has been there all along) consequence to the story. If we simply take the conspicuously unique inclusion of both the Light Wing and the Divine Visitor at face value, and accept there is a reason they are both a part of Azel’s story, and only Azel’s story… the veil is lifted, the design is revealed, and like 90% of the spurious pieces of this puzzle virtually fling themselves into place.

But you’re right, a summary is in order here. Again just keep in mind this is primarily concerned with the central narrative arc, so it’s not an attempt to dismiss any symbolism or significance that falls outside of that purview. Indeed what truly makes these games so damn amazing, as I’ve said before, it’s not a common story about some people that do some things, but about an actual world and the wondrous events that have taken place there. It is all the elaborations of the reality that distinguish Panzer Dragoon so much, and in that respect they are perhaps more important than ‘the story’ itself; but it may be useful here, if not even necessary, to make that arbitrary delineation explicit:

Heresy program: a force, a purpose, a will that cannot die. Abstractly it is one thing, yet tangibly it is another; the Heresy dragon. They are the same yet distinct, and within that distinction is another template: the Type_01, Numero Uno! And the affinity of one for the other is inescapable, this Heresy entity’s identity as a dragon has an archetype, so we may simply presume there is a solid reason why.

After whatever events closed out the ancient age, the first reappearance of the dragon was rather touch-and-go for a while. Either it narrowly and luckily escaped being expunged by Shelcoof, or it managed to set some sort of decoy trace, anticipating that form of attack. In either case, by then it was strong enough to actually chase down and defeat all the minions of the “flying Tower”, evidently evolving it’s powers as few as a couple times before disabling the ship itself. Yet it needed to expend and impress nearly its entire being in that effort, to “seal away” Shelcoof’s systems and limit / delay the chances of further reprisal? This was on balance presumably a victory for the objectives of the dragon, so we may assume it was more of a setback for Sestren than for the Heresy program. Yet as far as we know, no other overt action happens for many years…

Sestren has not detected the “impurity” dragon again even once, until right before a fully formed / manufactured model from the ancient age is also “activated”. Why this particular dragon? Well, we can firmly ascertain that this dragon form is the one that the Heresy program ‘knows’ already, but we also know, for a fact, one other thing about it: this dragon can KILL TOWERS. Indeed it’s the only one we can say has that power with certainty. We also have every reason to believe that after totally obliterating, or at least permanently incapacitating, an even more monolithic installation than Shelcoof ever was, this dragon checks on the well being of it’s last companion and just flies right off to parts unknown…

So then… why doesn’t it just continue on a rampage of Tower destruction? One of the simplest apparent answers is the rider problem, and everything points to it being a legitimate limitation. There must be good reasons it abandons Keil - the “mediator” parameters may be in play there - but there must also be reasons it never finds any more replacement riders while it is such a powerful and direct threat to the Towers; and while there are tempting suggestions for why it perhaps couldn’t, it’s far more interesting to consider it in terms of why it actually didn’t. The most straightforward answer is that that wouldn’t be a viable course of action for the dragon’s long term objectives anyway, and we can even find a hint of feinting about the circumstances surrounding both Shelcoof’s and the Empire Tower’s defeats. There was more happening than a simple frontal assault on Sestren’s fortresses.

Which all leads to the eternal question of what possible reason the dragon would have to then show up as Edge’s hero… looking like something the Arachnoth dragged in?! Much has been speculated about the dragon crest Edge sees right before the meeting, and there may well be something in that - specifically it’s easy to see each of the three crests as symbolizing each dragon from the three games - but that speculation always leads to a very long stretching of the details. That location also happens to be very close to another conspicuous relic though, the Conana’s Nest, which is the location of the Numero Uno D-Unit, and the one and only ceremonial set-piece just for one of those pieces of the Light Wing.

Lagi is born and raised under Lundi’s care; the Armored Blue Dragon is bequeathed to Keil by a mysterious dying rider; but Edge’s dragon simply “chooses” him, from out of nowhere, right after he’s been revived and (presumably) possessed in some sense by another mysterious force.

The games may lie to us, they may not reveal a lot, but they’ve never deceived us by hiding or distorting what’s important; what should be truth. Those three become riders in obviously different ways and attendant details, because they are obviously different circumstances and reasons.

As I’ve described, the Light Wing is an intrinsic element of the game, and theme in the story. In form it is explicit and distinctive from the beginning, represented on the menu screen itself and echoed by the “ultimate” spiritual attack you can wield. In name it is heralded by arcane superlatives and mysterious controversy. In fact it is with us all along. As the dragon evolves through the course of the game, certain aesthetic characteristics become more radical and distinctive; by the evolution to Arm Wing it’s legs are massive and half-fused together, the wings have a powerful nearly double-delta shape, and that huge bright-orange fishtail is unprecedented. It is now clearly, indisputably only a few steps away from achieving the Light Wing’s known form.

And it’s really that simple: the Towers can’t be truly defeated without getting at Sestren; the Heresy dragon can’t get to Sestren without Azel; but even if it defeats Sestren it can’t overcome the Will of the Ancients, only the Divine Visitor can; and the Divine Visitor must be led to Sesten by the Light Wing - the “messenger of the gods”.

I like Dragons…seriously though, I tried to follow all of this thread but I think ADHD prevented me from completely following it and I don’t have ADHD. ;p I do enjoy reading all the theories and marvel at the fact that you guys can come up with this stuff. It might just be my engineer brain lacks that kind of creativity. Very impressive stuff guys.

It’s just nice to know anyone else even cared / tried frelled, so thanks!

And perhaps it’s less about ADHD, and more the degree to which you don’t have OCD? :anjou_embarassed:

Most of this has been non-sequitur scraps straight from my own thinking, which isn’t very uhh, normal in the first place. So it’s not all intended to make sense together exactly, I suppose I like to arrange a bunch of elements together and sort of… lean them against each other; just to see what falls over and what doesn’t.

Okay, finally got that Blue Dragon entry published:
thewilloftheancients.com/new … ive-dragon

I will properly respond to this topic and continue on with the other Dragon Forms entries after the 19th of June.

That looks really good Solo, and I haven’t been able to think of anything else important to add. But purely as a personal reaction, the model differences are actually the least of the reasons I think of the “Solo Wing” as a separate thing, but anyway… are you even still intending an additional entry for the Solo Wing?

Since the subject intersects with various things here, and it’s fresh on my mind anyway - and since this aesthetics can o’ worms basically already got opened - I’ll use this as a segue for rattling on about those discrepancies in the in-game models some…

I’ve boiled it down to seven essential elements. and one of Lance’s articles is again a great / convenient link for some visuals - I can even get the in-game Solo Wing and type_01 models as well as the FMV model all onscreen, lol. And I’ve set three sort of categories:

Obvious distinctions:
Wings - Solo Wing has roughly twice the surface area of other depictions.
Correlations: at least one special CG image is equivalent, as seen on the soundtrack cover.

Eyes - Yellow (not easily seen in these shots but I’m pretty sure) when the standard for other depictions is red or at least a deep orange.
Correlations: none that I know.

Tail - This one is the most curious, no matter what there always seems to be five discrete armor segments aft of the main body shell. But on the Solo Wing they are clearly spaced out more, and this results in the tip of the tail being white (armor) instead of blue (hide).
Correlations: none that I know.

Subtle distinctions:
Proportions - Lanky, that’s the best way I can describe it. Overall it’s just more streamlined looking, and while some elements like the wings themselves and the dimensions of the horn may exaggerate the effect, it’s definitely unique for the relative proportions.
Correlations: None straightforward, but perhaps closer to the concept art.

Horn - Standard. This one is very subtle but interesting, both the Type_01 in-game model and the FMV make a clear effort at representing a linear taper from a relatively thick base to the point, yet also more of a ~ shape than a simple arch.
Correlations: Basically every other ‘longhorn’ dragon form, but oddly enough the concept art as well.

Legs - Conservative armor plates. Seriously it’s just that, the huge thigh armor of the CG and Orta models looks almost exhausting.
Correlations: actually both the Type_01 in-game and the concept art seem similarly ‘reasonable’ about this, it’s mostly only that crazy CG precedent.

Peculiar distinctions:
Faceplates - ‘Natural’. This one just stands out, since those flat armor plates mounted on the cheeks of the original Blue Dragon are the primary representation of the signature aesthetic conceit of the ancient technology. Without those abstract line patterns, the Solo Wing looks much more like it could be a truly organic / grown creature, rather than an ancient construct.
Correlations: None, other than earlier PDS forms like the Stripe Wing.

One other oddity clearly only pertains to the CG/Orta models again, which both have a strange feature. Those armor segments on the tail look like uni-piece forms, without the lateral ‘seam’ seen in all other in-game models, as well as the concept art - the first image in that Blue Dragon article. Which actually makes it look slightly less ‘machined’ as well…

So, (I think) there’s only three significant characteristics clearly unique to the Solo Wing model: the tail pattern; the eye color; and those faceplates. Does it matter?

Maybe, maybe not, maybe I’m just insane. But a lot of impressions have been with me about this other realm of communication for years. At the very least, there could be a thematic reason for why one game uses the exact same model from the original, while the other does not.

EDITED for misuse of the word "corollaries: some odd transitive technical connotation attracted me to it after rejecting “parallels” for similarly subjective connotative reasons… “correlations” still doesn’t seem perfect but it’s actually right.

Yeah. I imagine it will be significantly shorter than this Blue Dragon entry, and will discuss (and contain links to) the various classes of the Solo Wing that are represented by the dragon forms in Zwei.

[quote=“The Ancient”]So, (I think) there’s only three significant characteristics clearly unique to the Solo Wing model: the tail pattern; the eye color; and those faceplates. Does it matter?

Maybe, maybe not, maybe I’m just insane. But a lot of impressions have been with me about this other realm of communication for years. At the very least, there could be a thematic reason for why one game uses the exact same model from the original, while the other does not.[/quote]

One explanation could be that, since evolution doesn’t work backwards, the Solo Wing Normal Class had to retain certain elements of the forms of Edge’s Dragon, even though it was trying to turn into the dragon’s “true form” (as Edge calls it). A bit like how humans have tail bones. However, the fact that the dragon can evolve backwards (between classes but in the same form) seems to throw any serious consideration of this out the window.

I’ll mention these differences when I come to write the Solo Wing entry, anyway.

You obviously see what I’m trying to sell with that then Solo? lol

If you mean like the Windrider and Skydart forms… again I just can’t agree there’s any intellectual profit in such granularity of semantics, not where those sub-classes are concerned. I mean how is it a backwards evolution if it looks like Windrider yet it’s lasers are more powerful than the “Solo Wing” itself? Those are mere images, and by that same token they are less faithful to their precedents than is even the normal class image.

But I’ve made a good start on a Light Wing article, it took me a while to decide how to frame it, but as I mentioned there’s actually not that much to be said, so I may have a rough draft for you to look at by tomorrow. I would also be interested in the Orta forms, I always had a similar take on them as Megatherium’s theory presents, and a number of elaborations along those lines have also occurred to me while dwelling on all these design details. And it was funny to me when you used the Eye Wing as an example of a form with little to be said about… as I think it’s most likely the inspiration point from which every other PDS form was spawned. :anjou_happy:

I’m re-reading this topic from the start at the moment. Here are my replies as I go along…

I’m not sure if we should read too much into that connection. The Divine Visitor did not send the dragon (the Destruction Faction did), so the dragon wasn’t a messenger of that visiting god that the he/she was aware of. If anything, the dragon was a “messenger of the Destruction Faction”.

The Ancients may have simply been referring to the gods that they believed in. The Light Wing was so bad ass that they believed it to be god-like.

I think you may be on to something there. The other forms of the Saga dragon do resemble the Light Wing enough to suggest that the evolution into the Arm Wing was somehow necessary before the Light Wing form could be taken on. From what we’ve seen, the dragon forms are unique to specific dragon programs, with the exception of the Dark Dragon/Solo Wing Spiritual Class, but that may be because the Type 01 and Type 02 are somehow linked (one is a prototype of the other, perhaps?).

Given the evolutionary similarities, it seems reasonable to assume that something like the Arm Wing was required for the Light Wing “add on” to the dragon’s evolutionary path. BUT maybe it required a certain previous form (or one of a pool of forms) rather than a particular dragon. More on this below.

[quote=“The Ancient”]It is definitely not the Arm Wing seen in that flash vision - as indicated here - of the dragon flying towards the Tower of Uru. The shape of the wings isn’t even remotely similar, and while it seems to have a slight fishtail, another thin spine extends much further. Though you could probably manage something close by morphing one or another of the Azel Wings around, it’s truly not ANY known dragon form. So two angles:

  1. Systemic explanation: that FMV was produced before the Azel dragon designs were finalized, and it’s a generalized hybrid of the design direction they had.

  2. Thematic explanation: parallel to (1), the dragon’s memory for it’s future is projecting an averaged understanding of the Light Wing gene-base, that it knows/expects it will be adopting.[/quote]

Explanation (1) seems likely to me, although (2) fits nicely too (although I would say it represents Edge’s dragon in general, not necessarily the Light Wing gene-base).

As mentioned before, I don’t think the Saga evolutionary path necessarily means that the Light Wing was exclusive or designed for it. The Light Wing may have been multipurpose, in that it could have been “added on” to other Arm Wing-like forms that other dragons took. I imagine those were Preservation Faction scientists who created the Light Wing, so presumably the Light Wing form had the potential to be added to their dragons too.

We should probably change the Uncut Ending article to mention that it isn’t identical to the Arm Wing (although seems to represent the Saga forms in general). Is that something you can take care of, Geoffrey?

[quote=“The Ancient”]Azel was stolen because she had the specific capability to interface with and control the Uru Tower, or all Towers (of the Uru faction?) I honestly don’t see it as any direct suggestion the TDF’s technology was fundamentally inferior to the PF’s. Computer systems the world over use virtually the same level of technology, that doesn’t mean all of them could easily hack into any of the others whenever someone was bored and felt like trying it? Her unique value was that of a key or a cypher, not some mere higher-tech weaponry.

But I think those development details are already specific enough to matter and be suggestive on their own. There is no real need to justify any similarities - they are patently similar - so that’s missing the point. We’ve never been particularly lacking in evidence to explain How they are similar - those ‘butterfly dragon’ silhouettes are almost enough for me anyway; it’s that we’ve been given another possible direct suggestion for Why they may be so similar. Certainly another explicit characterization of the prime entities as directly and uniquely parallel. Emblems of the opposing Wills of the Ancients.[/quote]

I didn’t mean to imply that all of the tech that was shared between the factions was literally stolen (as Azel was), so perhaps inspired would have been a better word. One faction adds a feature, and the other copies it. A bit like video game consoles, where one company adds a second analog stick to their controller and the rest follow if its considered a good idea. The Heresy Program may not have been a direct copy of one of the Preservation Faction’s programs, but it least came about as some sort of inspired response. However, the close similarities to Sestren do suggest something more than just inspiration.

It seems to me that the epilogue A, B, C, and E endings show the crest as Lagi has entered it (hence the dragon shaped hole) or he created the crest around himself.

The epilogue D crest shows the crest completely sealed around dragon, and yet we know something entered that crest as evidenced by the dragon pup emerging from it in Panzer Dragoon Saga. So, I suspect this ‘intact-crest’ was created around the dragon, perhaps as part of the dragon’s hibernation and/or procreation systems. Perhaps the crests in epilogues A, B, C, and E weren’t complete when Lundi saw them, but since epilogue D does not show Lundi looking up at the crest, we don’t know how long that crest took to fully form.

It’s possible that Lundi entered through another entrance on foot that was later sealed off in order to protect the dragon pup from intruders. The warp feature would be yet another security feature, perhaps allowing only the Heresy Program to enter.

I agree that the scale-differences can be overlooked, but I think we can find story explanations (possible or actual) for the other features of Genesis Chamber that link Zwei and Saga together.

[quote=“The Ancient”]You have presented your argument as: Zwei’s ending lacks meaning without the Shelcoof scenario in Azel. Though I can only agree with that more as: the Shelcoof scenario in Azel has no meaning in the absence of awareness of Zwei’s ending. Because I never actually felt the message in that ending didn’t stand on it’s own. However…

Imagine it’s the only FMV you ever saw, nearly all of the “meaning” that directly links to the Shelcoof scenario in Azel is absent from that ending with epilogue D? Again it’s the symbolism itself that matters, many of the details are only interface distortion.[/quote]

Zwei’s ending doesn’t lack complete meaning without the Genesis Chamber section, but that section certainly adds significance to it. So what I mean is, the Zwei ending has less meaning without the follow up in Saga. We don’t find out the purpose of the blue-green light in the crest with the continuation of that story in Saga - it would be just another unsolved mystery. Why not have the dragon just fly away like in PD1’s ending otherwise? Why show the crest at all? Panzer Dragoon Saga continues that story arc by showing us that what we saw in Zwei’s ending was Lagi reborn or Lagi’s offspring (depending on your interpretation).

To answer your point about Lundi witnessing the crest being absent from epilogue D, I think he probably did see the crest, but the scene was cut since players who completed epilogue D likely would have already seen one of the other endings (it is the hardest ending to obtain after all), so it wouldn’t have been necessary to show players this again.

If the dragon pup in the Genesis Chamber was supposed to only be an easter egg, they could have easily added that easter egg somewhere with less/no story significance. The fact that this scenario carries on directly from the end of Zwei’s story was very deliberate. My interpretation is that the Heresy Program had to leave that pup behind, the genetic offspring of Lagi, in order to return to its true form (as Edge calls it), with that story arc completing with the creation of the Solo Wing in the red ruins.

Now about this Light Wing theory…

Warning: I’m going to be blunt when providing criticism, but it’s all to help make your ideas stronger, so don’t take it the wrong way.

[quote=“The Ancient”]That helps illustrate the very heart of the matter, because no, drawing such a distinction between the Light Wing and the Solo Wing is not actually arbitrary, not a bit! Yet perhaps we’ve all managed to miss why?

And I even indicated the basis for that in the post you were replying to - the pride of place the D-Units and other material claim in the core narrative - so that may show just how elusive the understanding still wants to be. But I need to start over with some of that anyway:

First thing is, I had conflated my memory of the text on the D-Units - which don’t say too much - with the single paragraph in the manual about the D-Unit panel; and it’s “rumors of the fantastic powers generated when the units are fully assembled.” Which then brings up the fact of why it needs to be mentioned in the manual at all… because there’s a big chunk of real-estate on the menu screen dedicated to graphically tracking how many pieces of the Light Wing you’ve collected. That’s how central the Light Wing icon is on a system level, we’re actually viewing pieces of the true final form all along - and for that matter, the Dragon Phoenix, which is the all-round most devastating form of attack in the game, explicitly echoes the Light Wing form as well? [/quote]

I agree that these elements add to the importance of the Light Wing.

But obtaining the story elements for both forms - Light Wing and Solo Wing - is optional. They’re not central to Panzer Dragoon Saga’s story or theme. Just as you don’t have to read the Uru logs or collect the D-Units, you don’t have to keep Shelcoof around long enough to obtain the dragon pup. As mentioned in my previous post, I think that pup was Lagi’s genetic offspring/clone, and it’s possible it was only born when it exited the crest. If so, you wouldn’t be burying Lagi, but destroying an unborn dragon unintentionally.

[quote=“The Ancient”]To express it bluntly: Light Wing has DIRECT ties to the central themes of PDS’s story and mechanics; Solo Wing has virtually none at all. But also, and this is crucial, that very theme of the Light Wing is exclusive to that game. So hopefully that will finally close the circle…

Azel - the only being known that can force open a path to Sestren’s inner sanctum. When her origins are revealed we find out that she was ‘born’ in the same place and of the same expertise that also created;

Light Wing - an “ultimate” dragon form, that it’s own creators think is a “messenger of the gods”. Disobeying orders they bequeath that dragon form to a future generation: and in that generation the dragon that indeed inherits their work chooses as it’s rider a youth who’s life has been miraculously saved by a;

Divine Visitor - in fact the only force in this world that may resist the chains of fate that bind both Sestren and the world together in an eternity. And by the dragon’s own account, the very reason and purpose of it’s existence.

These three characters BELONG to Panzer Dragoon Saga, without any one of them, it’s story could / would not be told. There are other visitors to the story, but many have had their own stories as well. The most elusive unifying theme of all, is that there is no hidden unifying theme![/quote]

But the Light Wing is not necessary for Panzer Dragoon Saga’s story to have been told, nor is the Light Wing a character (it is a dragon form). You can complete the game with the Arm Wing and the ending doesn’t lose any significance.

The epilogue D/Genesis Chamber link between Zwei and Saga shows how the Blue Dragon becomes the dragon’s final form in PDS. As for the ‘why’, I agree that is not clear, but a why can be interpreted from those scenes. So I’m not sure why you say there’s some faith based argument going on? If you mean, there was some plan of the Ancients for the Solo Wing to be dragon’s final form, that’s not something I would argue.

[quote=“The Ancient”]Again that’s all mainly tangential Solo, but since the main challenge you presented was the idea I’ve overlooked or dismissed evidence for the Solo Wing’s consequence to the story, I’ll offer one direct challenge in return: make that case.

Articulate How and Why the Solo Wing Dragon transformation contributes to the core narrative of Panzer Dragoon Saga. Or even the outcome of the story arc of the series.[/quote]

Neither the Solo Wing or Light Wing contribute to the outcome of the series. They’re not necessary for the core narrative in that sense. But that doesn’t mean they cannot contribute to the core narrative. Once again, the two go together as extras, but not necessarily as mere extras.

I’ve already mentioned how I think the Solo Wing fits in with the story, so no need to repeat that again.

It seems to me you’re taking this too far by mixing Edge’s dragon with the Light Wing. But they’re two distinct things - one is a dragon, the other is a form of a dragon. Where is it implied that the Light Wing form must lead the Divine Visitor to Sestren? The ability to defeat Sestren with the Arm Wing seems to rule this out.

OK just one thing really quick:

I have asserted why I think Edge’s dragon is defined and delineated by the Light Wing, as in the essence of the Light Wing is with Edge’s dragon from that start. My assertion that it is a part of the core narrative is predicated on that first assertion. One builds from the other, but they support each other. If you choose to reject the first entirely, then you will of course always have a rationale for rejecting the second entirely; but mooting the first clause as defeated is not a legitimate argument that the second clause is defeated.

So arguments about the second clause are irrelevant until or unless the first clause is considered resolved. As such that will be the only focus of my responses for now. Unless perhaps you don’t believe there is a debate to have about that Solo…

Why I think Edge’s dragon and the Light Wing are essentially inextricable: to be continued…

I’m having trouble following your train of thought here, so can you link to/quote that specific post?

[quote=“The Ancient”]Lagi is born and raised under Lundi’s care; the Armored Blue Dragon is bequeathed to Keil by a mysterious dying rider; but Edge’s dragon simply “chooses” him, from out of nowhere, right after he’s been revived and (presumably) possessed in some sense by another mysterious force.

As I’ve described, the Light Wing is an intrinsic element of the game, and theme in the story. In form it is explicit and distinctive from the beginning, represented on the menu screen itself and echoed by the “ultimate” spiritual attack you can wield. In name it is heralded by arcane superlatives and mysterious controversy. In fact it is with us all along. As the dragon evolves through the course of the game, certain aesthetic characteristics become more radical and distinctive; by the evolution to Arm Wing it’s legs are massive and half-fused together, the wings have a powerful nearly double-delta shape, and that huge bright-orange fishtail is unprecedented. It is now clearly, indisputably only a few steps away from achieving the Light Wing’s known form. [/quote]

It is my assertion that the Light Wing is a character, in the same sense that the Divine Visitor is accepted as a character.

Yet we are told, explicitly and directly, by an original ancient source that the Light Wing is not just a dragon form. It is “more than a dragon” and “a being far different”. I’ve given a somewhat running commentary on all these thought processes ever since I got the bit between my teeth on this… and from the start I’ve tried to be consistent about how and why such details don’t matter. My bespoke classification of “interface distortions”. Specific to this: Light Wing is already a part of Edge’s dragon, therefore the Arm Wing is in part the Light Wing. As I’ve been reminding all along, it is the overall symbolism itself that ultimately matters (to this argument), not those strict constructionist details.

I thought I had made this general conceit plain already, none of the FMV details in that realm are sticking points anyway. Because there is an alternate - and strictly superior - criteria for consistency.

But I’ll need to tie a number of those points together for a more detailed reply.