Dragon Forms

[quote=“Solo Wing”]

[quote=“Ehndow”]I wonder if it has been accurately translated. Why does it say “Impurity Reacquired” with images of the Dark Dragon reaching the Tower? And then says “D Type 01 activated” (with an image of the golden starfish Sestren Ai). Why is the Sestren AI represented by a Blue Dragon in Saga’s final battle?

I don’t understand the sequence of events of that last orb. Why are two units activated at the beggining of PD1 in the Tower?

It doesn’t make sense for none of it to make sense, since everything else does…but this…doesn’t make a whole lot of sense?.:P[/quote]

“Impurity reacquired” probably means that Sestren found the Heresy Dragon again after its absence between Zwei and the first game. The image of the Dark Dragon arriving at the Tower probably symbolizes what the Dark Dragon was ordered to do by Sestren - change into the larger Dark Dragon in order to stop the Heresy Dragon.

The use of D Type 01 is really confusing, since the Dark Dragon is the Type 02 is Pandra’s Box.

Maybe we should get Sestren’s memory orbs re-translated.[/quote]

The prototype has a more literal translation:

[quote]Error… delete failure… Pursue at once… Point confirmed… Activate Shelcoof
Too many mutants are born these days.
Sealing of an error, verified… Revival of the error, verified… Seal it once more…
…Activation of D Type 01, confirmed…[/quote]

The use of D-Type 01 is confusing, but it has to refer to either the Dark Dragon or its rider. It wouldn’t make much sense otherwise.

Perhaps the prototype contained a mistranslation and the released version was based on that? They might both be mistranslations.

I’ve set aside that memory orb business before, it was still mentally flagged with the possibility of either mistranslation or even a simple mix-up. But another possibility just occurred to me, and it’s rather simple:

Perhaps this was the first time Sestren confirmed the error as a possible D Type 01 manifestation? That could at least resolve the major details into one coherent theme.

I do believe the Sestren Exsis manifestation and the Heresy Dragon are part of the same template, the Destroyer of Towers template. From that I might conjecture that the Type 02 is an offshoot of the same gene-base, intended for a more general or defensive role - or even as a counter-agent - yet with similar versatility and power levels. That could then even account for it’s partial manifestation by the Solo Wing. Or alternately, some facility for ‘collecting’ genetic material was there all along - and carried over to Orta’s incarnation - but the Dragon only learned how to spontaneously and coherently evolve as a benefit of the Light Wing / D-Unit merger.

But I like the chronological (after a fashion) ordering for the form entries Solo, it makes perfect sense that way. You might highlight the Pup, Type 01 and Solo Wing in the list, as they are exceptional?

One other OCD indulgence… the cycling order from the Base Wing in Orta goes to Heavy Wing then Glide Wing then back to Base. So if it were me I’d have the Glide Wing last. LOL :anjou_embarassed:

[quote=“The Ancient”]I’ve set aside that memory orb business before, it was still mentally flagged with the possibility of either mistranslation or even a simple mix-up. But another possibility just occurred to me, and it’s rather simple:

Perhaps this was the first time Sestren confirmed the error as a possible D Type 01 manifestation? That could at least resolve the major details into one coherent theme.[/quote]

That does seem like a reasonable explanation.

Or based on the same codebase which was used for programs intended to both defend and destroy the Towers.

[quote=“The Ancient”]But I like the chronological (after a fashion) ordering for the form entries Solo, it makes perfect sense that way. You might highlight the Pup, Type 01 and Solo Wing in the list, as they are exceptional?

One other OCD indulgence… the cycling order from the Base Wing in Orta goes to Heavy Wing then Glide Wing then back to Base. So if it were me I’d have the Glide Wing last. LOL :anjou_embarassed:[/quote]

They’ll be listed in alphabetical order when displayed on the site like the other encyclopaedia entries, as that’s how the site’s CMS is set up to order them. It will be the same as how the Characters are ordered:

thewilloftheancients.com/cat … characters

But I can add links to the dragon form entries throughout the main entry about “The Dragon” which tells the story of the dragon in chronological order.

Going by the recent translations, the Dark Dragon is called the “Prototype Dragon”. I think it’s likely that the Heresy Dragon was also a prototype dragon, and that “Type 01” and “Type 02” refer to the two prototypes. With this in mind, it may be better to call the encyclopaedia entry “Blue Dragon” instead of “Type 01”. Blue Dragon is describing a very specific form of the dragon explicit in the name and it referred to as this in Panzer Dragoon Orta and in this wallpaper: thewilloftheancients.com/pic … -wallpaper

Any thoughts or issues relating this change?

Well, it at least serves to narrow the theme around the BD and DD being closely related! But just like - as example - all the Orta information, it raises virtually as many questions as it answers… for me at least, and for the moment.

Like I said in the other topic, brain exploding, but I’ll have more to say soon. lol

OK Solo, first I think “Blue Dragon” works as well, it’s usually my go to term anyway. Not too fussed either way but I actually agree with those reasons. And now you’ve got me thinking about that damn wallpaper again…

Perhaps you can remind me, does Zwei have an epilogue that actually shows the usual ending, but with the Blue Dragon model? (Epilogue E I guess) Or as I seem to recall it’s a special / different video?
EDIT: Or I guess it’s epilogue D, but there’s 5 dragons you can finish with… so that’s something I’m still a little fuzzy about…

If we’re seriously digging for symbolism in that wallpaper, by far the most conspicuous thing about it is the omission of not just the Solo Wing but the Light Wing as well. Add to that the fact that there’s no connection indicated directly between the Skydart and the Blue Dragon, then that broken arrow from BD to Azel’s Base Wing… yet by contrast they choose to stress the rift and continuity from the Arm Wing to both the ‘Dragon Soul’ Sestren image and Orta’s dragon.

So what I’m now wondering, is if the linear canon wouldn’t include any of those ultimate transformations. At least in the case of Azel, we can find this again under an obvious purview of system vs story concerns - there’s only one FMV series produced for the ending, with Arm Wing - it is yet a matter of official record in some sense.

In a way, both the Sky Rider and the Light Wing are like the ultimate black sheep of the canon. They both have a great and inescapable influence on events, yet they are inexplicably taken for granted or outright ignored in the greater contexts. Though I seem to be the only person who feels about the Light Wing similarly to how almost everyone else seems to feel about Sky Rider.:anjou_sad:

On to the new translations: the big thing that jumped out right away for me, is the Guardian D entry:

At the time of the Shelcoof Incident, a creature appeared that could be called a false dragon due to its similar form. We call it the Guardian Dragon (referred to as the GD henceforth).

I’ve always felt some impulse of exemption about that. Like the question of why it didn’t have or need a rider. And it really just doesn’t look like a ‘proper’ PD dragon - even Atolm, for all it’s wonderful gaudiness and embellishments, conforms perfectly to the apparent functional archetype. Regardless I like this excuse to regard Atolm and DD as the only other true dragons known. Also because - as above - it further narrows down the family connection angle somewhat. And on that subject:

This idea was successfully programmed into the as-yet-incomplete Sestren as the determination that ?the future of humanity ought to be decided by humankind?. However,Sestren itself discovered the existence of the program and removed it from its functions, regarding it as a bug. As a way of dealing with these circumstances, the program was also configured to turn itself into a dragon.

Like much of this material, there can seem a possible element of repetition of the obvious, even with unintentional skewing of the tense or context. Excepting a few notable additions, it mostly bolsters my own initial impressions about these issues. But then some of those impressions have since evolved or even been somewhat discarded…

That passage firmly reestablishes the ‘monkey wrench’ scenario I thought to have understood right away from finishing Azel, and causes me to feel more torn about some of the speculation I’ve grown very attached to. But again it doesn’t technically add anything new, yet serves to add gravity to the obvious and apparent. So I start fighting myself over whether I’m only reaching for something I want to see or not, but there are some other elements that may re-infuse the nuance:

Even among the bio-engineered monsters produced by the former civilization, the individual possessing the strongest capabilities was the dragon. Both the Preservation Faction and the Destruction Faction were participating in its development, but there is no record of its large-scale production.

As always with the caveat that these are not empirical assertions in the first place: ascribing any general accuracy to that, it first begs the question of whether they also mean both the PF and the TDF were developing “The Dragon” together? Or is it just “the dragon” as a classification, as is evidenced by this context? Yet in either case, the TDF had access to Sestren - and therefore The Dragon - while it was “as-yet-incomplete”.

But another question - less than even implied yet inspired in me anyway - is how this faction with an apparently avowed anti-technology attitude, might find itself in a participatory role of creating the most devastatingly powerful agents of the ancient technology? And I want to believe the dragons might have been both more-and-less than that technology… which could then once more have a connection to my own Ann McCaffrey influence I’ll admit.

Still, it reaffirms the theme of the dragon as a heretical facet/projection of Sestren itself, from a somewhat fresh angle. As such, I think it can generally pull Sestren Exsis / Dark Dragon and Heresy program/dragon closer together logistically. And as always, there’s the dragon crests… there must be a reason that icon is so universal. Seen in both a (presumably) TDF outpost, but also in a peculiarly ceremonial looking location in the middle of Zoah’s (and the Tower of Uru’s) Forest of Blessings?

That has become the single greatest riddle of The (Blue) Dragon, for me.

Trying to gather my thoughts for the Light Wing entry, but they’re all tied up in this larger scenario right now anyway, and even though I really should be getting some sleep… :anjou_sigh:

Since the guide translations have somewhat restored my own default settings about a number of issues, I’ve been thinking in terms of revisiting all the basics as though fresh. And it doesn’t get more basic than Panzer Dragoon (Eins):

The story of the original game - such as we were given one - seemed intelligible enough on it’s own terms. A militaristic empire is excavating a mysterious and presumably exceptionally powerful ruin, seeking even greater knowledge and power for itself. There is a battle in progress between two warriors, both riding a dragon - fearsome specialized weapons of the Ancient Age. One of them is evidently trying to reach the “Tower” ruins, the other wants to stop that from happening.

Why? At the time I remember thinking the Dark Dragon and it’s rider were obviously members in that evil empire, trying to rendezvous after some big discovery or milestone or something. While the Blue Dragon and it’s rider were clearly from some opposing nation, trying to stop an event that might give their enemy an insurmountable advantage.

Well, it did seem fairly obvious to me at the time… but it also didn’t much matter. Being in that world (and shooting at everything in it) was just fun, so who cares about the details when they’re so thin anyway?

Of course all those impressions are radically recast once I’m playing Azel, and I assume nearly everyone had a similar experience if they had been with the series from the start. But consider again those elements as they stand on their own: that Sky Rider who implores you (Kyle) not to let “him” go back to the Tower… well ‘he’ evidently already knows and fears something very definite about those ruins - and what will happen if the Dark Duo reach them.

We were given a depiction of two well matched elite warriors, engaged alone in some turning point conflict. One falls, and the humble outlander must pick up his cause, and join his battle steed before all is lost. It was brilliant of course. But was it actually even as misleading as may seem from subsequent revelations? If one even agrees with that impression - what if there was no anticipation or intention to mislead? And if the authors also remained true to the substance underlying that impression?

Was this indeed two seasoned elite warriors, who know one another quite well, at least by record and purpose. Perhaps even met in battle before… yet ages ago. One way or another, that Armored Blue Dragon’s rider seemed clear about it’s objective, and the stakes involved, in a way no other “mediator” could be, at least until Edge himself learned enough from a dozen different sources.

Letting that sit…

My first impressions about the Solo Wing Dragon transformation, were that it was more of a stylistic ‘updating’ of the classic Blue Dragon. I didn’t think much beyond that until playing Orta, and was initially almost disappointed to see the ‘stubby’ older looking design (I got over that quick, they’re both great) and the label “Blue Dragon”. So that first cemented them as distinct entities in my mind, even then, it was really only after I started thinking of the Solo Wing as more than an Easter egg, that such distinction seriously meant anything. For the sorts of reasons I’ve already stated: once the Solo Wing transformation is considered consequential, then there is also a great mass of consequence leading up to it, that had been almost entirely passed over. Including much about the Light Wing.

Again letting that sit, too many details heading too many possible directions from there, away from the motive of this post. A lot in my old Zoah theory topic, but too many of those details seem to dead end as well. So this is mainly just to frame my larger motivations about this almost ruthless theory outline that kept me from getting enough sleep tonight…

Let’s entertain the notion, as abstractly as possible, that there is no ultimate or “complete” canonical table of events. What if the purpose of the Type 01 transformation at the end of Zwei is not to establish any fact of how the Eins dragon arrived at it’s form, but more to affirm continuity as something that hypothetically could have happened. You had recently asked about the Epilogue A crest Solo, well it’s also chosen for the end-of-the-line image of the Zwei lineage in that wallpaper (and is it also the cover of the Japanese version?)

By the same token, the Light and Solo Wings may both be considered bonus scenarios. They require a lot of extra - and entirely non-essential - travel all right as you’re ready to finish the fight. And the Red Ruins are an entire set piece area built around ritually cannibalizing a dragon pup you’ve dragged half way across the map… and nothing else! :anjou_happy:

In a sense it’s equivalent to all the other books and texts you may (or may not) find, embellishments to the back story, but as experiential packages of data.

So the basic outline I’m mentally/emotionally testing right now, goes something like this:

Some loose incarnation of the Heresy dragon indeed existed during the fall of the ancient age. Battles were fought, won and lost.

Various agents of bio-technology were put on ice all over, certainly including Azel, Atolm and Abadd, so why not other dragons and drones from any and all other factions?

But the ‘Will’ of the Heresy dragon, the Will of it’s true creators, is something both more powerful and profound, yet perhaps more vulnerable and not so easily hidden away, than any mere biological system.

Once that Will is forced to act, perhaps prematurely, it must protect itself and attempt to further it’s objectives by any means possible. Once the Heresy program is identified and purged, Sestren has essentially immunized itself against further contamination by that pattern, so direct channels of influence over other systems wired to Sestren in any way are for the moment blocked.

The best it can do, is a most inauspicious genetic host in one of Sestren’s few blind spots. but of course, it will still do. Long enough and well enough to get back on the offensive, and even find/make some conditional gateways back into the system. If in rather blunt fashion.

The event itself was brought to a close when the dragon destroyed Shelcoof, and petrified part of itself within the Tower in order to thoroughly seal away its functions.

And… why is it such a priority to seal away Shelcoof’s functions?

The GD was a dragon left behind during the reign of the ancient civilization by the Preservation Faction in order to guard Sestren and the Towers. In addition, it was imbued with the will to eliminate the dragon left by the ancient civilization?s Destruction Faction upon its appearance.

Again, it can be inferred that these two may have tangled before, in some sense or another. If the Heresy program embodies the primary will of opposition to Sestren and the Towers, then it would seem this Guardian and it’s charge are one of the prime embodiments of the will to counter it.

It might have taken nearly everything this incarnation of the Heresy program had left to both seal Shelcoof and still project enough of itself towards other endeavors. And one of those endeavors could well have been reclaiming a purpose built form, in preparation for the threats and missions it knew would come.

Why are there two pedestals in the Red Ruins for Dragon Crests, and more importantly, where did the one that was missing go?

And exactly what purpose the Sky Rider was intended to serve, if ‘he’ was a drone, is unknowable. But if things were actually so strict, as such, about the “mediator’s” required lack of bias, then the Divine Visitor’s role becomes more of a paradox. Since the dragon’s self avowed purpose was to lead it to actualizing that agenda all along. I think the final decision needed to be placed in the hands of a human, but not that of every single act of opposition and aggression. Lundi describes the feeling of being compelled by the dragon’s objective, even though he knew nothing about it.

OK, to be continued in some fashion…

Adding just a little clarification to this, I’m not in any manner trying to dismiss the symbolism in these extended scenarios. Even to the contrary, by constraining things to a context of pure symbolism, it may actually serve to focus and qualify the meaning of those symbols…

Solo you had asked about the Epilogue A dragon crest image Gash somehow has a record of, and I know I said “I don’t want to read much into it”, yet here I am again… reading much into it.

And you also replied that you would have preferred consistency. Well that’s really why this notion has taken hold of me, it seems to sweep away about half of the spurious meta-inconsistencies - at least the ones that might matter - in one fell swoop. The ramifications have been inexorably cascading through almost every aspect of my perspective on PD’s story, and such time and focus as I’ve been able to give to those thoughts have been rather scattered. But I’ll try to pin down the core argument here:

Consider, as example, if a player completes Panzer Dragoon Zwei, defeating the Guardian D and subsequently destroying / disabling Shelcoof in Epilogue A - with only the Windrider evolution - have they not achieved everything necessary for the literal fulfillment and continuity of our story?

And by extension, even a completion of Azel, in only the requisite Arm Wing evolution, has still fulfilled the dragon’s mission and destiny and freed this world from the Will of the Ancients.

This might not be strictly accurate - and please show my error if anyone recalls another example - but I think all of the other depictions confusing the issue of which Zwei ending might be canon, are either from the dragon or Sestren? And there’s two good angles for resolving that:

  1. In the theme of Sestren’s extra-dimensional continuum, we may find a form of consistency in it’s very inconsistency. Action and Intent; Fact and Fate; Past, Present, and Future… all are liquid for Sestren.

  2. If the Heresy Program’s default self-template as a dragon is the Type 01/Blue Dragon/Solo Wing form, then that’s how it would ‘see’ itself in it’s own images!

Getting a bit more tangential than needed for now, but it’s just the start of an area of speculation following from mulling over that wallpaper… but it’s a good taste of the flavor this larger context is adding for myself:

As far as our best information allows us to determine, the Heresy dragon is the only dragon ever to exist, that built itself. Yet also by the depictions in hand, we may ascertain that it’s “self-evolution” at any given stage, represents a degree of interpolation between two or more archetypes. With the clear example of Lagi, one of those archetypes is it’s point of origin - a simple coolia. The Heresy program knows what it means to be a dragon, but it also has to work with the material at hand, and is also presumably enlightened enough to adapt for expedience.

If the program is continually evaluating for maximized odds of survival and success, there are inferences from the possible progressions in Zwei. It is a manifest fact that this dragon acquires surplus energy from destroying other lifeforms - charging it’s “spiritual” reserves for going berserk - that facility may easily extend to other material wavelengths. By both motive and means, facing and defeating greater opposition escalates that equation, and accelerates the evolution curve. But presumably always constrained according to some optimal cost / benefit ratio…

From one sequence of circumstances, it might appear that the dragon adheres to a path of bolstering the innate characteristics and strengths of the established gene-base; but another set of circumstances tips the balance and allows it to make a partial jump towards another archetype altogether, gaining many new beneficial characteristics, yet not without tradeoffs in other respects. The Brigadewing may be seen as a culmination of a conservative methodology adding to the brute force and vitality of the beast of burden it started with. While the Skydart is a bit more of a gamble, sacrificing further intrinsic security and offense for a more versatile and potentially efficient / future proof adaptation.

And only one of those choices - one path taken - may be ‘fact’ for a given timeline. But a subsequent incarnation of the dragon evidently ‘knows’ the end results of both, as well as another full archetype (Dark Dragon) that we have no understanding it had ever utilized?

And another curiosity, at the least: if you’ve been enough of a badass by the end of Zwei to see GD’s second form… you also see it’s augmented bulk fail and fall to pieces, rather than just crashing into the seas beneath. An aesthetic distinction of destruction vs debilitation? If Shelcoof’s functions were indeed sealed, it stretches idiomatic credibility to imagine GD rebuilding such an edifice on it’s own.
EDIT: Ahh well/hell, this one goes back on the anomaly pile: I’ve confirmed the Guardian D breaks apart the same way even if you don’t get the second form… confused with some other memory. Too bad, it still (and always has) seems to break credibility for me. But that could instead feed into another explanation, relating to how/why Shelcoof itself may have only just started recovering…

Now consider the image from the end of Eins, when the dragon’s horn starts radiating blue energy preparing to destroy the Tower. What if that’s the prime function in that distinctive form? It would provide a very simple, congruent rationale for why the dragon could not destroy Shelcoof outright. The general acceptance has been that Lagi was not yet strong enough in some manner… *even though the Type 01 appears rather to outclass the original Blue Dragon!? *

Whereas, within this coherent scheme, the idea that Lagi simply didn’t have the *equipment *for such a feat, seems very tidy indeed.

And seriously, I’ve been sort of feeling like I now get to have my cake and eat it too, with this context. All of the symbolism; far less of the cognitive gymnastics…

Lots of other problematic themes seem far more resolvable as well, like too many to focus on one at a time, as yet. But there’s a central theme that’s somehow (almost) lead me to a more nuanced paradigm for the dragon’s duality as expressed in PDO. Resolving the vague paradox about it’s mortality. I’ve nearly convinced myself, that we effectively did destroy the dragon…

Now about that there Light Wing

I know I’ve said enough about it, even from my earliest debates here; but this is hopefully the true frame for my discontent. In systemic terms only, the Solo Wing scenario definitely conforms to a typical Easter egg role, more so than the Light Wing itself. Yet the consequence of Light Wing, has been typically relegated to the role of: Key to the Solo Wing?

So again with the basics…

A few of the first D-Units found in Azel are placed directly in our path, effectively unmissable - unless someone was willfully refusing to forage items. Each one even comes with a handy instruction note letting us know, if succinctly and in general terms, just what they are and why we really should want to collect 'em all! It is immediately introduced as an element of consequence, on potentially systemic and thematic levels both. Yet it remains a static mystery for over half the adventure, no further hints are seen…

In the midst of one of the most dramatic and poignant turning points of the plot, we are given the only addition to our understanding of the Light Wing, in the entire game. Once again virtually barricading our ordained progress, and in the form of one of the most rare examples of information from the horse’s mouth we will ever see; two pieces of information are revealed to us: a crucial element of Azel’s back story; and the singular parcel of context for the Light Wing that we will ever get.

Light Wing’s creators considered it the “ultimate form” of the dragon, and thought it might be a “messenger of the gods”. And it perhaps scared the bejeezus out of their superiors?

Seriously, how’s THAT for some symbolism?

This is a very consequential way to introduce the idea of Light Wing as a messenger of the gods. One particularly intriguing synonym for “messenger”, to me, is “herald”. Was something about the Light Wing suggesting to it’s nominal creators that very creation was being influenced by another power? Did they see some echo of a purpose to fulfill beyond the petty mandates of their own masters?

These ancient engineers were certainly convinced enough to commit their raving to permanent record. They had a messenger or herald of the gods on their hands… and millenia later, a subsequent dragon manifestation that has been attempting to reclaim their works, reveals to it’s human rider that: “I exist to lead the Divine Visitor.”

It’s made it easier for me to just believe and decide, once and for all, that the offshoot evolution and progression of the Saga dragon is intended to reflect the influence of the D-Units. As again, the details can serve to muddy the waters as much as anything. *It’s all quite clear in the symbolism. * And there can easily be dualities within the dragon’s duality; even in the ancient age, no one controlled, or was necessarily even aware of, all the pieces… :anjou_happy:

I really need to read through this thread from the start but…

I’ve always been puzzled by this that part. Perhaps it would be worth getting translated from the original Japanese text. The English translation had a way of making things sound more “mystical” than they originally were.

That depends on your point of view and how you define a god.

You can see God as a metaphor in terms of the forces of nature that shape everything, like I do. But imo, there’s nothing ruling out the Ancients seeing themselves as gods, metaphorically speaking, or even literally since they could create life. In that sense, they were literally gods.

Okay, I’ve finally caught up with the other topic, and I’ll address the points in this one later. But before I log off, I’ll just say something briefly about this:

[quote=“The Ancient”]Perhaps you can remind me, does Zwei have an epilogue that actually shows the usual ending, but with the Blue Dragon model? (Epilogue E I guess) Or as I seem to recall it’s a special / different video?
EDIT: Or I guess it’s epilogue D, but there’s 5 dragons you can finish with… so that’s something I’m still a little fuzzy about…[/quote]

The epilogues aren’t in alphabetical order, so Epilogue E is for an earlier form. Epilogue D is the Type 01/Blue Dragon ending.

I recommend this article of Geoffrey’s which discusses that ending. It’s significantly different from the others in so far as well see much less of what happens and much more of what will happen.
thewilloftheancients.com/art … rue-ending

Thanks Solo, I did read Geoffrey’s article again a few days ago - when I made that edit actually - and it’s poured a lot of extra fuel on this fire already.

I’ve also since played around in Zwei some, but yeah I just forgot that Epilogue E is the Armonite ending, oddly enough. Though in a way it might even make sense, If Ep. A (Windrider) is the ‘foundation’ ending; Epilogues B & C (Brigadewing, Skydart) are the alternate ‘optimal’ endings; Ep. D (Type_01) would be the ‘symbolic’ ending; which leaves Armonite as the umm… fifth wheel, as it were. :wink:

Side note: I discovered something cool, assuming a 90%+ SDR (or even ‘Winged Death’) if you take all the routes that have the most flying (ignoring Ep 4 easy route), you’ll finish with Skydart; whereas if you take all the routes that have extra walking sections, you’ll be just right to transform into Brigadewing at Episode 6!

I am now convinced that the Type_01 transformation essentially never happened. Actually I want to label it the “dream” ending, as that gets the idea across well. So Ep. A is I think, for lack of a better way to put it, the most canonical ending. A couple other notes on that for now:

It is definitely not the Arm Wing seen in that flash vision - as indicated here - of the dragon flying towards the Tower of Uru. The shape of the wings isn’t even remotely similar, and while it seems to have a slight fishtail, another thin spine extends much further. Though you could probably manage something close by morphing one or another of the Azel Wings around, it’s truly not ANY known dragon form. So two angles:

  1. Systemic explanation: that FMV was produced before the Azel dragon designs were finalized, and it’s a generalized hybrid of the design direction they had.

  2. Thematic explanation: parallel to (1), the dragon’s memory for it’s future is projecting an averaged understanding of the Light Wing gene-base, that it knows/expects it will be adopting.

And in the very same Memory Orb vision, as Ehndow earlier brought up, we are shown both Lundi riding a Blue Dragon AND the Skydart sealed crest!? It is inconsistent by design methinks. :anjou_happy:

And actually, I’ve also become inclined to agree with Geoffrey’s views about the Shelcoof dragon crest in your Life Cycle Theory; if not for all the same reasons. Even taking it a step further, I’m not at all convinced that image(s) in the epilogues is truly supposed to be of a dragon crest at all. Certainly it’s been shattered and displaced if at all, but even the surrounding detail doesn’t seem to match up with the Ep. D shot. And I don’t generally subscribe to the “hibernation” connotation anymore.
*EDIT: Alright, looking at some more articles (elaboration at some point) and it is the same crest just not always rendered the same way. But I’m even more certain that the intended visual communication is rather that Lagi’s corporeal form has broken and replaced the ‘original’ crest.
*

I could say the same about being puzzled by it but… that’s just it: Light Wing could be considered the greatest mystery in PDS. Indeed it’s because I was trying to catalog all the details for a comprehensive article about it, that I was struck by how ‘light’ the literal material actually is! Seriously, we have the D-Units themselves and the Uru records.

A puzzle alright. Or more like a crucial piece, without which the bigger puzzle around it can’t resolve.

Edit: And… it seems I’ve been suffering under a cruel misapprehension for years now. Or rather, I’ve fixed on three primary derailmemnts of my own understanding of the events / context in PDS. But this one is just funny…

The dragon form Sestren appears in is not actually the strict ‘Type_01’ model at all. Because the impression is so alike the exaggerated thickness of the horn from the original game’s model, and because you never get a very good / close look at Sestren, that was initially my clear impression. I was absolutely wrong: Sestren is also unique!

So I’ve been undermining any chance of clearly understanding the issue for years… while (proper noun) Sestren manifests in a body extremely similar to our own Blue Dragon, it is actually it’s very own thing. Which is, if anything, far more suggestive…

There are a lot of thoughts to digest here, and I won’t have time to reply to everything individually, so let me attempt to address what I think are the main points. If there’s something critical I’ve missed, you’ll have to summarise that for me I’m afraid.

[quote=“The Ancient”]If we’re seriously digging for symbolism in that wallpaper, by far the most conspicuous thing about it is the omission of not just the Solo Wing but the Light Wing as well. Add to that the fact that there’s no connection indicated directly between the Skydart and the Blue Dragon, then that broken arrow from BD to Azel’s Base Wing… yet by contrast they choose to stress the rift and continuity from the Arm Wing to both the ‘Dragon Soul’ Sestren image and Orta’s dragon.

So what I’m now wondering, is if the linear canon wouldn’t include any of those ultimate transformations. At least in the case of Azel, we can find this again under an obvious purview of system vs story concerns - there’s only one FMV series produced for the ending, with Arm Wing - it is yet a matter of official record in some sense.[/quote]

I believe the Light Wing shows up in the ending sequence to PDS (when the physical dragon heads pop out of the Heresy Program). Now correct me if I’m wrong about that (I may need to rewatch the ending FMV) but if I am correct, this would appear to put a stop to any theory that says the Light Wing/Solo Wing are not canonical because they aren’t shown in any compulsory section of the game.

Hmm, interesting. This may simply be a matter of semantics, with the author wanting to narrowly define ‘dragon’. But if we’re going to go that route, perhaps Shelcoof should also be considered a “false Tower”. It’s not really a Tower in a structural sense, unless perhaps placed on its end and pointed upwards.

They may not have been working on the dragons together, but I imagine the technology would have been similar. As demonstrated with the kidnapping of Azel, technology was taken from one faction and used by another, so if the factions didn’t develop dragons together, the plans for them were likely developed by one faction and adopted by another. Either case explains the similarities between Sestren and the Heresy Dragon without the needing to go into any specific development details.

A last resort, perhaps.

[quote=“The Ancient”]Solo you had asked about the Epilogue A dragon crest image Gash somehow has a record of, and I know I said “I don’t want to read much into it”, yet here I am again… reading much into it.

And you also replied that you would have preferred consistency. Well that’s really why this notion has taken hold of me, it seems to sweep away about half of the spurious meta-inconsistencies - at least the ones that might matter - in one fell swoop. The ramifications have been inexorably cascading through almost every aspect of my perspective on PD’s story, and such time and focus as I’ve been able to give to those thoughts have been rather scattered. But I’ll try to pin down the core argument here:

Consider, as example, if a player completes Panzer Dragoon Zwei, defeating the Guardian D and subsequently destroying / disabling Shelcoof in Epilogue A - with only the Windrider evolution - have they not achieved everything necessary for the literal fulfillment and continuity of our story?[/quote]

The Light Wing appearance in PDSs ending I mentioned before may influence this, but also the Type 01 appears in Sestren’s memory orbs, which seems to suggest that it happened. Otherwise, I think your conclusion here depends on whether we consider the Genesis Chamber, baby dragon, etc, “part of the story” too. Maybe your point is that we don’t need to?

Invoking possible worlds to explain the inconsistencies? Sestren was considered to exist in another dimension “beyond time and space”, so that might not be out of the question at all.

I’m not sure about that, since it is Sestren showing the player the Type 01 in Zwei’s ending in his memory orb. The dragon’s point of view does not need to be involved here, other than being the one recorded.

Hmm, I think the two go together. There’s enough happening in the game related to them for them to both be considered either canonical or easter eggs. But defining one as an easter egg but not the other seems a bit arbitrary to me.

Saving you the immediate trouble, and I would have mentioned this eventually anyway: Lance’s PDS Weird Stuff article has been a major resource for my contemplations here. That has a great image of the Light Wing face from the dragon/Sestren meeting. Yet it’s again something taking place on the ‘other side’ of this dimensional distinction, so that can only reinforce the conceit I’m presenting. As such it’s also a narrowed context on a depiction with perhaps greater intrigues to offer:

Conspicuously, the Light Wing is the first form shown; it next morphs to an image of what can only be the Eye Wing or possibly Panzer Wing heads, to go by the length of the horn and the distinctive chin protrusion; the next clear image is of the classic Type_01 / Solo Wing form, unmistakeable; finally settling - possibly after/through some vague suggestions of other Zwei shapes - on the face of the baby coolia / dragon pup. So only four clear representations are chosen, in a reverse chronological order, representing Zwei’s dragon / Lagi; Eins’ Armored Blue Dragon; and a late stage of the evolution of PDS’s dragon… so a single iconic representative from all three games. PLUS the Light Wing itself as the first?

Concurrent with the dragon telling Edge that “we must rest”, precisely FOUR dragon forms are revealed. Which may be a very interesting number…

One other note for the moment, and from that same article, in the one Memory Orb it is actually both the Skydart AND Brigadewing sealed-crests shown, in addition to Lundi on the Blue Dragon. (Once more… poor fifth wheel Armonite!) So by the ‘mundane’ record Gash has, it’s the epilogue A sealed-crest; but Sestren has a ‘memory’ conflating all three of the other ‘complete’ forms? Yet another peculiarity, and I’ve registered this at other times without much second thought: Every other sealed-crest image is explicitly representing the form you’ve completed the game in, but the epilogue A sealed-crest is not in fact the Windrider… it’s just Lagi! It’s a tad ambiguous, but from that wallpaper again, you can clearly see that if we’re even going to choose one, from the shape of the wings - and with the rough trailing edges - and the fat coolia shaped body, it’s closest to the Hatchling, Lagi’s first real dragon form.

I will have a response to all those points but not all at once Solo, and sorry for seeming so cagey about all this. It’s just, as I’ve been recollecting so many of these associations following the expanding ripples of this paradigm, like about half the material from the whole damn series seems suspended in flux. Trying to pin it down I get sidetracked into new conjecture and fresh associations, and it’s not really even crystalized yet. And it isn’t the best / most relaxing thing for my spare time at the moment either. :anjou_happy:

Maybe we should create the encyclopaedia entries for the dragon forms first in order to gather all of the known facts. Once the facts are systemised, we’ll be in better position to speculate about them.

You mentioned the Dragon Life Cycle Theory in one of these topics, but I’m actually more inclined towards the Attached Dragon Mind Theory these days. The dragon forms are so different between the Saga and Orta dragon, I believe the best explanation is that they’re different base bodies. This is a view that both the Different Dragons and Dragon Life Cycle theories reject. I want to expand on the view taken in the Attached Dragon Mind Theory by discussing how and why I think the dragon’s evolution took place. I have started on a theory tentatively called “Evolution of the Dragon Theory”, but it’s still in the very early stages. I would address issues such as which dragon forms could be considered canonical, and how these diverse forms can be reconciled with the singular mission of the dragon.

Figuring this out is far from easy though. You seem to be in favour of a thin conception of the dragon’s evolution, whereas I’d prefer a thick conception that includes all of the transformations we see in the games as somehow canonical.

I’ll try and get that Blue Dragon entry finished soon, then work on some of the others (which should be shorter - there’s only so much to say about the Eye Wing after all).

Well I’m not really speculating in the usual (for me) sense about this Solo, at least not for the core paradigm. It’s not merely that the theory seems to work well, it’s that everything positively flows better. I already genuinely think that it’s ‘right’, in the fundamentals at least.

And for the substance and conclusions of those articles, I’ve been through both of them again as well recently, and in truth I’ve always subscribed to a viewpoint essentially aligned to your attached mind idea. It has not been lost on me that I’m now effectively throwing the doors wide open for the old <is it / isn’t it Lagi> question all over again, but as I believe I had said long ago the possibility of different physical dragons never bothered me in and of itself. And most of the same arguments I’ve previously employed about it will still be in play, most principally: there is no greater suggestion in the evidence for the idea that any part of the dragon’s ‘identity’ would/should be confined to a corporeal bond, rather the opposite.

But anyway, I would not characterize this core idea as a thin conception, more as a liberal one. All the different forms are canonical in the sense that any of them indeed could / might have happened, but where the DETAILS may start to directly compete with one another, then they simply don’t matter.

We’ve been handed some explicitly contradictory; incontrovertibly inconsistent depictions. So really our only choices are to write them off as irreconcilable and ignore them; or to look for a completely different explanation, an alternate thread of consistency within that pattern. And I believe I’ve (finally) seen exactly that.

Basically works for me? The guidebook translation presents another vague contradiction, in that it’s suggesting Shelcoof/Shecoofs is/are a general environmental purification system, yet Sestren’s memory orbs characterize it as being “activated” specifically as a response to the “impurity” detection. We might just think of it as “activating” the mission objective, but it’s still acting more like a special agent of Sestren. But really the new material just serves as further support for a characterization that had seemed apparent enough already: “Tower” is a catch-all term for any ancient installation of a certain scale and function that is ‘wired’ directly to Sestren.

That they also term GD a “false dragon” just serves to corroborate a general sense that it’s of a significantly different design lineage from the other known dragons. Which had also already seemed apparent.

Azel was stolen because she had the specific capability to interface with and control the Uru Tower, or all Towers (of the Uru faction?) I honestly don’t see it as any direct suggestion the TDF’s technology was fundamentally inferior to the PF’s. Computer systems the world over use virtually the same level of technology, that doesn’t mean all of them could easily hack into any of the others whenever someone was bored and felt like trying it? Her unique value was that of a key or a cypher, not some mere higher-tech weaponry.

But I think those development details are already specific enough to matter and be suggestive on their own. There is no real need to justify any similarities - they are patently similar - so that’s missing the point. We’ve never been particularly lacking in evidence to explain How they are similar - those ‘butterfly dragon’ silhouettes are almost enough for me anyway; it’s that we’ve been given another possible direct suggestion for Why they may be so similar. Certainly another explicit characterization of the prime entities as directly and uniquely parallel. Emblems of the opposing Wills of the Ancients.

EDITION: And so the other side of what I’m really trying to get at…

This part is too tangential to my main investigation here to be of concern one way or the other just now, but I do still feel there’s something crucial about the enigma of the Blue Dragon. And the one tangible quality I’ve been able to glean from it - only as expressed by the Zoah testament - is like an allegorical echo of the pattern of younger religions cannibalizing the substances of older ones. The only good resolution for why the same dragon may indeed be an emblem for both the Orthodoxy and the Heresy - that I’ve personally been able to fix on within my assumed best paradigm - lies somewhere in that direction.

In essence, I’ve long presumed that the Heresy dragon unambiguously represents a splinter from some orthodox archetype. Or in more basic terms a theft of form; perhaps even as simple as a rebellious clone, as many people have chosen to see things. But the notion that the nominal Orthodoxy was more of an illusion all along… that there may have been a battle over, effectively, the allegiance of the dragon? That just might explain a lot of other subtle enigmas.

OK really getting to the meat of all this now. And short answer to that question is yes. Of course I’ll remind the previous point about all three (Blue/Brigade/Skydart) being ‘suggested’ within that exact same Memory Orb?

The Genesis Chamber is tricky: while I was still thinking the Zwei FMVs visually depicted different locations for the ‘sealed-crests’ and the ‘intact-crest’ I felt that it was completely unambiguous. Those are absolutely distinct impressions, the stylized “engraving” of the classic dragon form is an insignia, an artwork. Whereas the sealed-crests look like a framework for something else that has been partially shattered, and overlaid by a far more literal and unambiguous depiction of those specific forms - again only the epilogue A image is slightly more vague - so that’s precisely what they are. In that respect I’m certain the sealed-crests represent the actual body of Lagi, as Lundi perceived things in his diary. The dragon doesn’t “hibernate” or otherwise locate IN that crest, it actually replaces it.

Then there’s the oddity of how, at the end of the Shelcoof passage in Azel, you have to ‘warp’ to the Genesis Chamber. Why? How would Lundi have managed to get there on foot and without the dragon? It’s pedantry to be sure, but some half the arguments made about anything here have been grounded in as much. And while I think it’s stretching things to expect the in-engine representation of that location to closely match the FMV, in truth there does not appear to be much attempt at matching the details at all. So once again, what I fundamentally believe is that those particular details don’t ultimately matter anyway.

You have presented your argument as: Zwei’s ending lacks meaning without the Shelcoof scenario in Azel. Though I can only agree with that more as: the Shelcoof scenario in Azel has no meaning in the absence of awareness of Zwei’s ending. Because I never actually felt the message in that ending didn’t stand on it’s own. However…

Imagine it’s the only FMV you ever saw, nearly all of the “meaning” that directly links to the Shelcoof scenario in Azel is absent from that ending with epilogue D? Again it’s the symbolism itself that matters, many of the details are only interface distortion.