No, I’d say the move to portables (for Blue Dragon for example) indicates they aren’t profitable on home consoles. I don’t know how well it did on DS but isn’t it getting a sequel? Or I remember wrong. But still, I’m saying it’s the home console situation in general that is not as good as it used to be in Japan, where the portables thrive way more than they used to, hence they get all that extra support, that home consoles don’t.
Chrono Trigger is just a port. It sold like one. Would FFVII sell millions if it was re-released on PS3? Actually, it was, wasn’t it? Via PSN? How much did it sell there?
Aren’t the Final Fantasy remakes profitable? I mean, they keep making them, and have announced many more. Sure, their numbers don’t sound impressive, but does that mean they weren’t good compared to the actual cost?
I mean, this isn’t a new situation, the DS has been like this for years now. If they were doing bad in general, wouldn’t they have stopped by now? After 5 years you’d think they’d get the hint? Instead Square announces more DS games than ever, alongside others. They aren’t merely testing the waters, it just seems they found a profitable venue, whether that means the games have next to no budget or whatever solution they’ve found, they’re certainly flooding the market anyway.
I don’t know about total Infinite Space sales. They clearly had modest expectations. I think they shipped something like 50k units for the first day and it sold about 30k of that. I find subsequent reports stating it fell through the charts after that, but perhaps SEGA didn’t even bother sending much more stock? It seems to have met expectations anyway, with that kind of low shipment numbers.
I mean they have access to the same sales data you do. If every RPG tends to sell 50-100k units, and they keep making more instead of cut down support, it seems that they found a way to do well with that. It’s not like any of those games was expected to sell like Dragon Quest, or have the same time and budget for its development.
But if you read the rest of my argument, you would know that yes, it’s nearly impossible for them to make a profit on home console, but it’s still extremely difficult to make any money on the DS as well.
Dev costs may be reduced to $500K~$2M depending, but in the west, you are limited to a very low price point (don’t have similar issues in Japan), with extremely high cost-of-goods due to the larger cartridge sizes required by RPGs. Your per unit revenue becomes very small, and the high COGs makes it difficult to manage your stock because you cannot reduce your price point without losing money on each unit.
So, rather than killing your company in one giant leap, you’re slowly bleeding money, or not making enough money to build up comfortable reserves to allow for more innovation, etc.
“why we restrict the focus and say that “JRPGs are in decline” instead of state that “home consoles are in decline in Japan””
Because I’m looking at worldwide aggregate sales, not just Japan. The reason for the platform shift for many JRPGs is, yes, the lack of a clear winner in home consoles. But the reason for the overall drop in sales for JRPGs worldwide is a shift away from those games by the gaming public in general. Your argument is that JRPGs are not in decline, they are just shifting platforms. My argument is that yes, they are shifting platforms, but that has just as much to do with the home console sales situation in Japan as it does the fact that JRPG sales are in decline worldwide
Well I guess I just don’t think Square is content with bleeding money like this and would have changed tactic by now. Maybe they don’t even look @ individual game sales. If you have 5-10 cheap JRPGs that sell 50-100k units each, then you have 250k-1mil sales with games that probably cost less in total than a single HD game would. Perhaps you’re right and we’ll see them make big changes, or die out (that’d be a shocker). How were their financial reports? Did they show a huge loss (probably) and did their DS division also show a loss? Edit: Found their losses posted near DQIX’s launch date but DS isn’t shown individually.
Ports of older RPGs onto DS, for example, have sold better. FF7 was a pretty big success, but it’s the best selling Final Fantasy of all time. It sold over 500K, but again, you can’t look at the exceptions to the rules. The flip side of something like that is looking at, say, Outtrigger’s sales and using that as an example of why shooters aren’t selling well. Same thing with the FF remakes. The reason why Square keeps doing them is because they are profitable. They are some of the only titles that are selling well, particularly in Japan. But, again, those are the two largest RPG IPs in history. If those didn’t sell well, it’d be game over.
And what do you expect game companies to do other than continue making games that they know how to make? A Japanese RPG house certainly isn’t going to turn around and start making FPS games overnight. They are continuing to make JRPGs in the hopes of surviving. I highly doubt they have any delusions of suddenly waking up one day to find that they have piles of cash sitting around.
Well I would expect them to reduce the output of JRPGs rather than keep making more if all they do is leak money, and show some changes. Sure, it won’t happen overnight. But SOMETHING has to happen overnight, for bigger changes to come in the future. Heck, you tell me how FF is guaranteed to be profitable. Why do we see so many different games to FF, or spin offs, and we don’t see the fabled FFVII remake, if it’s so guaranteed?
You need to stop looking at Square! They are the exception to the rule, and even then, only on the mainline FF and DQ titles. And what is a “cheap” JRPG? RPGs are expensive, plain and simple. Let’s say that a B RPG title costs $1.5M to make from scratch. Hell, let’s even say $1M, which is VERY conservative (i.e. not very realistic for most companies). Let’s say you make 10. That’s $10M. That’s still less than it costs to make an X360/PS3 game, sure. Let’s say you sell 50K of each (which is higher than the average non-Square title), that’s 500K units @ $30, which is probably a $24 A price (i.e. sell price to the store). So, then you subtract cartridge costs (no royalties, because those are built into the cartridge costs), marketing, distribution, tax, price protection, whatever. Let’s say, for simplicity’s sake, you make $10 per unit. That’s $5M. Oops. You just lost $5M.
(Of course, then you’d add in worldwide sales - if you double your sales to 100k or so, then you break even. Breaking even is basically losing money, because then you’ve got overhead, etc. Let’s not forget the fact that most companies aren’t sitting on piles of liquid assets, so investors are expecting some sort of rate of return on their investments. If they don’t get said return, they will not likely stay invested for long.)
I never said it was guaranteed to make money, but there is a good chance it would. How do we know that Square isn’t working on a FF7 remake? They’ve remade 3 and 4, probably working on 5 and 6. They probably don’t to blow their proverbial load all at once.
And yes, something has to happen. There are tons of people clamoring for change in the industry in Japan. It’s in a downward spiral. Nintendo did a fantastic job of finding a way to be hugely profitable and to keep the industry alive (even if it is just for them), but the rest of the industry needs to catch up.
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]Eh, I stated that JRPGs thrive on portables thanks to lower dev costs (perhaps not quite as directly, but it’s not like I claimed they have a home in home consoles) before Abadd did.
[/quote]
OK, then… you’re asking questions that you yourself have already answered? And… you think that somehow mitigates the rhetorical dynamic my point was about?
It’s the arguments of convenience Al3x, on say GameFAQs or GAF they may indeed hold sway, and they may even have some sort of relevance since enough people are seeing them to have some tiny influence. The very beginning of this was one argument of convenience:
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]If we’re talking Japan, what’s in decline is console gaming in general with portable systems taking the lion’s share of the market by far and away.
[/quote]
So the clear distinction between consoles and handhelds, both their markets and their actual classification… is so very important to keep in mind for your point there. But let’s see what you think a couple of paragraphs later…
Ahh, now it’s all the same really, isn’t it? DSi has directly kicked 360’s ass! Suck on it M$!
With such beginnings, you’re already in a tailspin from which there’s no recovery, only bailout. Skimming the rest only confirmed the inevitable…
And once again TA makes steam pour out of your ears by rendering a directly qualified OPINION, setting the stage for your favorite performance: an indefinite argument for why an OPINION is wrong.
I still haven’t given up on you Al3xand3r, I refuse to believe you aren’t capable of wrapping your head around how absurd that is.
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]Sorry didn’t realise all of Square is an exception.
Well, Persona 4 sold more than 3 by quite a bit >_>[/quote]
Well… not true. The base SKU, yes. Persona 3 sold 80K, Persona 4 sold 160K. But when you include the special edition of Persona 3, it sold 240K total (which also shows how hardcore the majority of the fanbase is for the series, but I digress). Sales have actually declined.
Of course, that is just US sales. WW sales of Persona 4 according to vgchartz (which is sometimes accurate, sometimes not) is about 590K (but their sales show 250K for north american sales). Persona 3 did 770K total across both SKUs (again, the numbers are much higher than the official NPD sales figures, but you get the point).
Persona likely made money, as it sold moderately well on a platform with relatively low dev costs (in comparison to next gen). However, sales have declined by 25% (standard in a sequel that is on the decline) and PS2 sales in general are nearly screeching to a halt at this point. I’d be very curious to see if a series like Persona (which is 2nd tier after FF and DQ, which is still fairly high up) can survive the generational shift. The other titles in the Shin Megami Tensei series have not done so well.
Eh is that worldwide sales? I must have been way off thinking Persona 4 passed 250k sales in Japan alone, as it had 233k this time last year when it finally fell off the Media Create top ten, so I don’t have further numbers, though it was still in the top 20 and top 30 for weeks later. I thought it would have done something like half a million, oh well.
Did you read the rest of my post? I said the first numbers I posted were US (or North America, rather), since those are the only numbers that I can verify. I also posted WW sales from VGChartz, but those numbers aren’t always accurate (but can be used as a general gauge in a pinch).
Also one thing you have to understand about “top 20-30” lists (particularly in Japan), is that after the first 5 titles, it drops off tremendously. And in Japan, anything past top 10 is inconsequential. I’m talking sales in the hundreds.
Right, I know, but it adds up over time. I don’t trust VgChartz either but sometimes it’s all ya have… Still, Persona 4 hasn’t had a special edition so maybe it will get one too and that way exceed 3, since the normal edition did. Though now they’re doing a P3 PSP port. At least they can milk it and make money
On the other hand lots of companies have trouble with development costs vs profit, even those who don’t dabble in JRPG games, so it’s more like the whole industry is in decline thanks to the increase in costs… And aside from the odd exception like Activision raking in big money with a few of their franchises that got huge and other such stuff.
Oh Please , the only fanboy is you . Posting endless charts , praising a machine you don’t own , and lovely little classics like
NCL fanyboy in full flight . Clear as day for anyone to see
I’ll ask you one simple question , how do you know the DS is the system for RPG’s ??? since you don’t owe the system , and then for its stands haven’t played these wonderful RPG’s and before you produced lists , sales ECT…
I’m far more interested in views on games that people actually played , rather than what some little sales chart or list tells me .
Oh I understand English , the very fact I can undertand your posts , makes that clear . I just not very good at writing English , not much better in Welsh , truth be told .
What I do understand , is flambaits , Fanboy posts , and the importance of playing games , consoles before posting my views .
Now I’ll be able to tell you why I rate the 360 and PS2 for RPG’s and the RPG’s in question… That I actually played and enjoyed , on those system . No need to produce lists , or general views or opinions
I’ll give you my own based on what I actually played . Be nice if for you once , you could do that .
Now go back to these lovely RGS’s on your imaginary DSI
Me… I’ll go back to actual games and actual consoles I own, thanks
Edit: Bah, nevermind, it’s hopeless. I’ll send the proper response in PM since you’re so into me, and just let those who read these know I disagree with pretty much everything you stated there, with good reasons I’ve explained countless times before since it’s not the first time you’re so set on attacking anything that sounds positive about Nintendo. I’ll add that, clearly, haters are as blind and set on their ways as the worst fanboys.
Save the PM’s , and please don’t pretend you don’t know what NCL means , how-else would one come to the conclusion, that I’m so called attacking Nintendo if one doesn’t know the true meaning of NCl
Please … Don’t come it , and everyone here can see who’s the real Fanboy of a particular Brand .
I quite a fan of the 360 , but also very much a fan of my PS3 . And I tend to play the games , or consoles in question , more so If I stick the boot into them
And I’ll just end that in this thread , its seem no one is really agreement with you , haters or not . Make of that , what you will
I knew because that’s how you always refer to them? You can understand what people talk about from the rest of the words, and the subject, even if you don’t know one word they use, you know. Being Welsh and barely speaking English you should understand that much. I meant I don’t know what the initials stand for, other than the obvious N, but hey, even in that you have to nit pick and take it out of context, lol.
This is just another example of how you’re being anal about the littlest things instead of say anything with meaning. Still, that was in the private message. Feel free to respond to everything, not choose shit out of context yet again, responding in public to something I said in private so people can’t see how I said it or why or in response to what.
Of course you won’t respond to the private message, all you wanna do is call others fanboys in public to hide your own biases, forgetting you’ve already admitted some of them in past threads. Of course you do not want to respond to private arguments rationally, only make the biggest impression you can, declaring how unbiased you are for everyone to hear. That’s not for you to say, it’s for others to judge, and your position is loud and so very clear to anyone paying attention. “Don’t come it”? Okay…
You feel all mighty because you found an ally here, and you’re now claiming noone is in agreement with me. Noone from what, the four people who discussed here, two of which restricted their discussion to other matters for the most part? I didn’t ask if anyone agrees with me anyway. Only you make such a big deal out of any statement that may be positive about Nintendo, whether it’s said lightly or not. All the “evidence” for me being a fanboy is merely you over-exagerating over every little statement, causing paragraphs upon paragraphs of debate for things that would otherwise be passed over like nothing, not willing to let it go based simply on a difference of opinion but making it be the most important thing in the world that has to be taken back as only YOU can be right! It’s not like I called it “the best” in anything, I was clearly talking market wise when I called it a winner. Sure, it doesn’t matter to you, or me, but it’s what I was talking about. The DS has an insane install base and insane third party support, that’s that. Feel free to hate that so much that your blood boils and you can’t let the one who said it off without calling him a fanboy, so that you derail threads into this mess.
How many are in agreement with you? And how does that mean anything? I’m sure you’ll find many allies on GameFAQs also, especially when you show how much you hate “NCL” since it’s the cool thing to do in the mainstream self-proclaimed hardcore communities nowadays, that doesn’t mean much at all I’m afraid.
I guess I’m done too then, since you won’t respond to the pm.
Only in your own little world. I maintain that all I said is I don’t know what the initials mean, and you take it out of context, out of a simple private message, to claim I said I didn’t know you refer to Nintendo when you say NCL. That is bullshit that simply shows how you twist every little thing you come across to suit your arguments, factual or, usually, not. I say I don’t know what “NCL” means (google tells me it’s Nintendo Company Limited now) and you pretend I said I don’t know who you refer to when you use those initials. Bullshit as usual.
Then start having it instead of have the single “you’re a fanboy” non-argument.
I made a big deal out of it? Please reread how this discussion went. I’m not the one who started calling others fanboys for stating simple facts. Please go back to our first posts and how you claimed I’m “spinning” things because I said that the DS has many JRPGs, and games of various types, whether they’re short-burst style games, or deep engaging experiences like a JRPG. You got worked up over a FACTUAL STATEMENT and called that “spinning” and “endless defence of NCL” (nobody attacked NCL, I was making a simple statement, based on facts, so I was not defending anything) just because you personally don’t game much on handhelds, and apparently don’t have a DS (much like me), and are clueless about its vast library. Are you serious or what? I hope not because this is ridiculous.
It is clear, yes. My post history alone shows that much. I’ve got more posts about systems I don’t even own, and even more posts about PC games. Whenever we discuss companies who make good games, rarely do I mention my favorites as being companies heavily involved with Nintendo systems. The Nintendo related threads I’ve made are few and far between in comparison. I’ve spent more time hyping games exclusive to platforms I don’t even own, like Yakuza 3 and Trico and Valkyria Chronicles, than Wii games. But you ignore all that and stick to the few instances I say something positive about Nintendo because you just CAN’T STAND THAT, even when it’s factual statements, so it’s all you ever remember about me, nothing else. Therefor, all that is not so clear to you since you keep calling me a fanboy of a company whose systems I barely supported (having ever owned two of their many consoles) just because I don’t have anything but vile comments about them. How come you’re talking about “sides” now anyway, I thought you’re just a gamer, who just cares about games, eh? Now there are camps, and you think I’m on a Nintendo camp which means you think you’re in another? Slowly, you’re once again admitting things. That’s something.
Stating facts is fanboyism eh? That’s new! Oh wait, it’s what you’ve been claiming ever since the first time Nintendo was mentioned in these forums, so it’s not only stupid, it’s also old, tired, and does nothing to help your already non-existent points.
Like I said, it’s clear where you stand, and you’ve admitted that much about Nintendo in the past. The only hypocricy here is yours, hiding behind your own finger by calling others fanboys to cover your own bias. And why? Because they had a few facts to state about a system and its abudance of JRPGs, and you jumped at their throats over nothing, and now claim they made a big deal out of it. LOL?
Congrats. Like I said, that means nothing. I have, say, noone to agree with me and you have one. You could have 10. 20. Hurray. How does that prove anything? Remember, before you quote just this first line, that YOU first asked about the number of people in agreement. Not me, because I know it doesn’t mean jack shit. You keep claiming you hate GameFaqs and that I’m like a user there, but it seems to me that the crowd of GameFaqs is where YOU would find many allies with your attitude about anything and everything Nintendo. You mock them and me through them but you act just like the haters and fanboys there, and worse, completely blind to the realities of the industry.
Sure, sure. Start acting like it then. When you jump at the throat of whoever says something positive about Nintendo, derailing the thread completely since that was NOT the subject, you don’t act like a gamer and nothing more. You act in the manner you falsely accuse me of.
