Calling all PD, Shenmue, and Jet Set Radio Future fans!

SEGA
41

No you right , but I remember SEGA AM#2 giving a interview about Shenmue and saying they have spent 5 years of thier life working on the project , that was back in 1999 , meaning that mist people would know development started out onthe Saturn . Sonic Adv also started out a Saturn title and not a lot of people know that , saying that Ninja Gaiden started out as NA@MI title , Oh the pain of being a nerd .

And OMG Heretic Agnostic is almost like you’re my twin, That list is spot on , and yes PDS used some of the very best VDP II tricks , the effect onthe water onthe worldwind (disc II) is nothing short of breath taking .

Some of my Other Saturn favs games showing off the power the system had are

Grandina - The best 3D polygons onthe Saturn full stop , and in PSX killing VDP II effects and its one of the most impressive 32bit games ever (thanks for nothing Bernie)

Mass Destruction - Another showcase for the Saturn VDP II , the reflections effects are brilliant

Die Hard Arcade - For me , some of the best 3D onthe Saturn full stop , and great textures to boot .

Dark Saviour - Polygons everywhere , this must have really maxed out the Saturn , and I loved the VDP II water effects

Virtua Cop 1/II - AM#2 just took the piss with these ports , Part I was the Arcade in your home , and these games really used the Saturn raw grunt .

Shinrei Jusaishi Taroumaru- Many people go on about RSG, but this game is just as much a showcase imo, the bets 3D backrounds you’'ll ever see onthe Saturn , and that purple spinder onthe 1st level is amazing to see.

Burning Rangers - I know it looked a bit rough , but my god were Sonic Team asking a lot of the Saturn , I also loved how the team titled one of the VDP II planes vertically to handle the transparent explosions .

Virutal Fighter II - if only for one of the 1st games to use the highg Res mode and becasue the characters look better than thier Model 2 counterparts (all the arms have smooth skin and joints)

Daytona CCE - I can’t think of any other 32bit or 64 bit game that had 40 handle 40 cars on one track . Game was a letdown , but its did show off some of the Satrun grunt

Bug II - I thought the VDP II mist effects were some of the very best , you could almost taste it .

Decathlete/Athlete Kings - This game looks stunning , and like a Model2b game , I can’t believe more people don’t rave about it. Not only does it look stunning , its one of the best multiplayer games ever made, still to this day .

42

Righto,

I asked around a bit about Vf3 for Saturn last night;

Apparently everyone who has seen the Revision 1 game (the alleged 500 000 poly version) said it looked like a more graphically advanced version of Fighters Megamix similar to the look of Sonic The Fighters.

The source of the “500 000” figure, claimed that the game used complex 2D routines to simulate 3D stages but did not actually use 3D stages - throwing even more doubt on the claim.

The figure “750 000 per second at 30fps” for revision 2 came from a source within Am2 itself. I will be the first to admit, I think whoever it was within AM2 that came out with this figure was just bullshitting whoever was listening.

Yu Suzuki also discussed details about the Saturn version of Vf3 with a journalist while being questioned about the Saturn version of Shenmue, however Yu Suzuki personally requested that all detailing of Saturn Vf3 be removed from the interview before it was published.

A memo dated 17 September 1998 surfaced from Sega Japans’s offices, the last few words of the memo (roughly translated) said that while the Saturn version of VF3 was an exceptional demonstration of the Saturn’s 3D potential, Virtua Fighter 3 should be reserved for the launch of Dreamcast. So there is your official cancellation date for the game.

An anonymous high ranking member in Sega’s corporate structure, has allegedly shown the second revision of game to a few lower-level employees who showed a relentless desire to witness the game.

So in other words, whilst nothing is confirmed, there are reliable sources that suggest the following:

There were two revisions of the game.

The first revision was impressive, but rough.

The second revision was once again impressive, and ironed out many flaws from the first revision

The game was officially cancelled on 17/Sep/1998
**
The game was never intended to make use of Sega’s concepted upgrade cart.
**

The following suggestions are far more questionable:

500 000 polys per sec @ 30fps

750 000 polys per sec @30fps

Rather than streaming data, the game actually used the sound chip to draw geometry.

All n’ all, nothing is confirmed. The only thing we can be sure of is that there was a Saturn version of VF3 that was cancelled on the 17th of September 98, and that everyone who saw it says it looked like the dog’s bollocks!

Regarding Daytona CCE, have you ever played the Japanese version Daytona CE? They fixed the handling and added the original Midi music from the model 2 version back into the game!

43

I wouldn’t be sure about any of those “facts” actually, not even the cancellation date. How does an e-mail “surface” anyway and how can anybody confirm its origin without a doubt in order to claim it really is for/from Sega…

44

It is not an e-mail, it’s a printed memo that currently belongs to a private collector.

By “surfaced” consider the word “surfaced” to be “surfacing” in the same way your Panzer Dragoon Prototypes “surfaced” :anjou_happy: So maybe Stolen is more of a correct term… haha.

If we look at the lack of light sourcing and garaud shading in Saturn VF2 and many other games, Shenmue included, there is no reason to assume that these effects returned for R2 of VF3.

People who have seen R2 Vf3 said that the character models looked quite similar to those in this game in terms of quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dj_aPr7R44)

Although I am in doubt about poly counts as well of course.

45

How do you confirm a memo’s origin then?

Also, that model looks wayyyyyy far from the actual VF3 models which look wayyyyyy far from the proposed polycounts to me…

46

The memo was in a folder of internal documentation from SEGA themselves that was “sold” to a private collector. Of course SEGA themselves do not officially sell internal documentation :wink:

SEGA often dispose of old documentation pertaining to both hardware and games designs. However sometimes they willingly “let go” of them to collectors who offer them enough money.

This is usually how information regarding prototypes of software and hardware is obtained.

Regarding poly counts, I myself do not believe them, nor did I ever say that model looked like it resembled them.

However that Dancing game is indeed for Saturn, and a fighting game with two models like that on a 3D background might look pretty damn impressive.

47

I think DoA looked better, but maybe it’s just the memory of it. Also, flat backgrounds. That game does look neat though, like a precusor to all of today’s “trendy” dance games… Not that I’d ever play any of it but neat. If they had done a US version with Britney Spears or whatever slut/singer was big then they could have earned themsleves some of that mainstream market Sony attracted…

48

[quote=“Chizzles”]
However that Dancing game is indeed for Saturn, and a fighting game with two models like that on a 3D background might look pretty damn impressive.[/quote]

Hey thats my vid :).

There’s no doubt in my view that AM#2 could have got 2 characters on screen up the quailty of those of the Amuro model and push a few more polygons whille they were at it, lets face it last Bronx onthe Saturn is pushing way more polygons . But there’s just no way it would come close or be pushing anywhere near 500,000 polygons a sec even at 30fps , maybe 150,000 to 180,000 at the very max (and thats more pipe dream)

And yes I have the Jp version of Dayona USA CE , but I still think its rubbish . Sorry Duke , but AM#2 Saturn port still remains the best home version imo

49

I liked how they fixed the pop up even more though in that and some of the cars were given different handling stats. They put a church model beneath the bridge where the train passes overhead etc

But still, they really could have had an arcade perfect port running on the Saturn when they ported it the first time, the bloody gits.

And no, 2001 was the best version! 5 years too late but better late than never!

Besides, the Dreamcast redeemed a lot of mistakes. We never got perfect ports of VF2, Fighting Vipers etc whereas VF3, FV2, Sega Rally 2 etc were all more or less identical or better. I never played Virtua On 2 but I loved the original in the arcades which the Saturn didn’t quite replicate to perfection.

Shame we never got a Shining Force 4. Life sucks.

What happened to Resident Evil 2 for the Saturn? I read that Capcom couldn’t muster the polygons needed?

IMO, too few games championed what the Saturn could really do.

50

Sega Rally 2 and VF3 were far from perfect on Dreamcast, although accurate yes. Plenty of missing geometry and issues, the Japanese versions are more problemed than their English counterparts however due to a few optimisations carried out by Sega America.

PS2 Fighting Vipers and Sega rally 95 are almost 100% arcade perfect, differences are very minor.

VF3’s arcade PCB can be picked up for not much more than the price of a pre-owned Dreamcast these days so it is perhaps worth the investment.

VF2 for PS2 is relativley accurate, although the textures are quite low resolution compared to the Arcade version.

Daytona 2001 is okay with a wheel, however cornering is still harder than the Arcade version.

But that is an arguement for another day.

The PC version of Daytona USA actually has a track not seen in any of the other versions.

51

More like a Sony induced exclusivity deal.

52

Shame it didn’t last just a bit longer (same goes for the DC).

But like I was saying, the arcade to DC ports were far closer than the arcade to Saturn ports, so in that respect the DC redeemed Sega a lot.

The thing with the Saturn was if the hardware had been finalized for what the devs at Sega wanted to do with it better, they could have done greater things with it with far less effort. It was a lesson that shouldn’t have had to learn IMO.

VF3 on the Saturn wouldn’t have done the game justice.

53

Although the Saturn did indeed recieve the most Arcade perfect 2D port of Xmen VS Street Fighter possible :slight_smile: It certainly had the upper edge with 2D arcade games, although that didn’t stop half-assed ports from making it over (DoDonpachi I’m looking at you).

I don’t think it is specifically Sega’s fault, most PlayStation ports of Arcade games are waaay off the Arcade originals, just look at Tekken 3 and Ridge Racer!

That is always the case when porting technologically superior Arcade games to Inferior consoles. Even in the days of SNES and Megadrive.

Do you know that Daytona for Saturn originally was to run in hi-res mode?

Some early proto screens released in a Magazine were using the 720*480i video mode! And it looked so much better than what we ended up getting in the end!

On another Saturn Vf3 related note:

http://i23.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/f4/9d/5866_1.JPG
http://i12.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/f4/9d/5a4a_1.JPG
http://i3.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/f4/9d/5b0b_1.JPG
http://i8.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/f4/9d/5bd3_1.JPG

This was an edition of the Saturn released in Japan which was just a standard White Saturn in a box that came inside a fancy outer card sleeve.

Inside it was packaged with a VHS containing an advert for Virtua Fighter 3 followed by “Coming to Saturn…” at the end.

Even if it was not arcade perfect, SEGA *originally *planned on releasing both the Dreamcast and Saturn version, you see - VF3 for Saturn, and Vf3tb for Dreamcast.

So you would have still gotten your “accurate” port of Vf3tb on Dreamcast.

54

[quote=“Shadow”]

More like a Sony induced exclusivity deal.[/quote]

At the time SEGA and Capcom were doing deals , nothing to do with SONY. I think it was more a case Nexttech were having trouble getting the game up and running onthe Saturn and given the Saturn was dead on its feet , it was better alround just to make RE 2 for the DC , rather that take the time to fully optimised the code for the Saturn , where even in Japan the market was dying for the Saturn

That’s only because a lot of the DC ports were from NA@MI .

To me, many of the Saturn Arcade ports were more impressive, given they were running on more powerful custom Arcade hadware . To me the only thing that really let the Saturn down, was it lack of hardware support for 3D transparency effects , that made a lot of PS game seem to look better

The game was never going to run in that mode, and that so called screen shot , was just a CGI image .

I remember AM#2 showing off a Daytona running inthe Saturn for the 1st time but that was just one car , driving over a VDP II playfield , which meant all the Saturn polygons could be used on just the car , it did look well impressive though

55

I also find the Saturn ports, generally impressive.

If we take into account that Virtua Fighter 2 for Saturn had a higher resolution and framerate than the Arcade version (Arcade version uses 57.9fps) along with the extra details added such as finger movements, it is quite impressive what they achieved.

Of course I’m not saying they are Arcade perfect, there is obviously a difference between something being impressive and something being Arcade perfect.

For example, VF on 32X is far from Arcade perfect, but that does not detract from the fairly accurate approximation of the game they achieved on the system.

56

[quote=“Chizzles”]I also find the Saturn ports, generally impressive.

If we take into account that Virtua Fighter 2 for Saturn had a higher resolution and framerate than the Arcade version (Arcade version uses 57.9fps) along with the extra details added such as finger movements, it is quite impressive what they achieved.

Of course I’m not saying they are Arcade perfect, there is obviously a difference between something being impressive and something being Arcade perfect.

[/quote]

Oh I agree, in fact the VF II characters look better than the Model 2 counterparts ,thans to having more realistic skin and smooth joints. I still can’t get over how good the Virtual Cop port was , that is more or less the Arcade , and lookedway better than Namco PS port of TC, yet people never gave the Saturn any credit for that ,

57

You have to admit though, games like Burning Rangers would have been 100 times better on the DC. The Saturn was just not cut out for that raw 3D. Blending 2D with 3D was the Saturn’s biggest strength as we see in Shining The Holy Arkl, PD Saga, Grandia, Exhumed/Powerslave etc.

I miss that graphical style very much. This is what makes the Saturn the most hardcore of hardcore gaming consoles IMO.

The DC with 8-10 million users really could have stood on its own two feet as profitable for Sega too.

At least Sega is still kind of going strong in the Japanese arcades. We can’t say the same for its latest console endeavours, however, tragically.

Has there been anything other than Yakuza 1-2 (Sonic for the Wii as well) that really stands out as quality lately?

58

Nobody denied that…

But it would have been less impressive :wink:

To see transparency effects from a Dreamcast being generated by hardware, is like seeing a bird that can fly.

You expect the bird to be able to fly, so you are perhaps less impressed by the fact that it can actually fly. This is not to say that a bird being able to fly is not impressive (it is) but has a less profound statement about it because it is within our expectations.

Where as, if a tortoise suddenly sprouted wings and took off, you would probably be in a state of shock and awe.

We still see a lot of games coming out of Japan that ahve 2D and 3D mixed together, there is a sequel to Odin Sphere heading to Wii later this year that looks pretty good.

As for Yakuza 1, if we are talking about games produced from Yakuza 1? There are plenty, although quite a few of them are Jap only.

59

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]You have to admit though, games like Burning Rangers would have been 100 times better on the DC. The Saturn was just not cut out for that raw 3D. Blending 2D with 3D was the Saturn’s biggest strength as we see in Shining The Holy Arkl, PD Saga, Grandia, Exhumed/Powerslave etc.

[/quote]

Oh no doubt , Burning Rangers was asking almost to much for the Saturn , and I agree with you I do miss the mix of 3D and 2D style. But I still feel games like Rally really showed off some great 3D .

I think Virtual Tennis III is one of the best sports games ever produced , VF 5 is top of the draw stuff, but other than those and Valkyria Chronicles (which is out of this world for graphics) There hasn’t been a lot to shout about .

60

IMO Sega hasn’t released any stand out titles since Virtua Tennis 1. In fact I think that was the last Sega title I purchased until this year. I picked up Sega Rally on the 360 but have yet to play it properly.