that’s how old she looked but is that how old she actually was? not trying for a DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNN comment, i just can’t remember.
so was the craymen being the father theory undeniably disproved? it actually appealed to me more than the edge-father idea, and with the more accurate translations the motives made more sense. if craymen was the father that would just be another one of the amazing ways that team andromeda/smilebit is always following their own ideas rather than cliches
Im aware of those things Lance, Im just saying there is alternatives, and like I said earlier the dragon could have left Edge alone after their goal was complete just like it left Lundi alone after their own goal was completed 
For example, look at the ancients argument, each one of us thinks they are human, each one of us thinks the best story element would be for them to be human and yet we still don’t know for a fact. Same deal here
There’s been quite a lot of discussion over it, but in the absence of any real details the general opinion seems to be that the pup was “produced” by Lagi (for want of a better word) at the point of death. That’s all that the text seems to imply, and apparently all we can safely assume.
I personally do; I’m pretty sure that it’s generally held to be an equally valid part of the PD series (unlike, say, Panzer Dragoon Mini), because it does expand on / directly explain the plot of the previous games in quite a few important ways.
As far as I’m aware, Azel’s relationship with Craymen in the Japanese version wasn’t really any different from the English version - she apparently looked to him as a father figure, leader and liberator, and arguably nothing more. Also, although Azel never literally stated that she loved Edge in the Japanese version, her feelings for him were still implied. Her final lines were still roughly “please… I don’t want to be alone anymore…”, they just didn’t include the “I love you” confirmation on the end.
In this respect it’s very much like the “identity of the Ancients” debate - although it would make more sense if the Ancients were human in any version, in the Japanese games it was not confirmed. So what we have in the English translations is arguably not an innaccurate translation, it’s simply a version of the story that leaves much less room for doubt.
There’s also the overriding fact that Craymen never went to Sestren, and the implication in PDO is that only one human’s (or one specific human’s) gene data was stored there. As Azel was apparently setting out to find Edge at the end of PDS, it seems safe to assume that she tracked down his gene data in the network.
Along with the fact she’d have no way to get gene data from Craymen the place was littered with monsters
And that unlike the possibility of Edge not being totally decomposed in Sestren, Craymen WOULD be dead and decomposed for all those years…
Also Azel’s message says her search was “fruitless”. In the case of Craymen she KNEW he was dead so if she was searching for anything of him it would be his dead body or his genes in Sestren(And he hadn’t been there ever). If her search to that was “fruitless” then we know she’d have no way to create Orta from him and herself.
While she didn’t know if Edge is alive or not so in this case her search is classified as “fruitless” because she didn’t find him at all or because she didn’t find him alive but either way got his gene data from Sestren and created Orta, it just all fits into like that, no? I gave the same reply in another thread.
Erk. I always come in late for debates. How do you guys manage to visit the board so much?
I wonder if anyone has ever brought this up in the Divine Visitor discussions before. When you enter your name at the start of the game (before the light enters Edge), the game actually asks you if this is your real name. That would seem to imply that the Divine Visitor is the player him/herself rather than merely another character in the storyline. I normally use a fake name when I have to name a character in an RPG (if only because the majority of them are male), but when the game prompted me I changed it to my real name, which ended up making more sense when I got to the ending.
Also, about Edge being in Sestren. Prior to PDO coming out, I never thought that Edge had died when the Divine Visitor left him so much as he just couldn’t leave. Going into Sestren was a one way trip and it kinda sucked but it happened. Of course with the physical drgaon leaving Sestren in Orta that kinda changes things. :\ I have no doubt the dragon would’ve taken Edge with him if it was at all possible.
Yes the DV thing you said has been mentioned before good point though
As far as the dragon leaving sestren is concerned, we knew that by the ending of PDS as well, Gash hears the sound of flapping wings.
And it couldn’t have been a one way trip for SURE, Azel would have known and have told Edge (And he’d decide to go on anyway propably)
If you remember, Azel confessed at one point that she didn’t actually know anything about Sestren - only its name, and that she could open the “gateway” to it. If it was going to be a one-way trip, it’s probable that she wouldn’t know. But yeah, Lagi leaving Sestren after PDS and Orta leaving Sestren during PDO confirms that it’s possible. So the question would be, why didn’t Lagi take Edge with him when he left? Unfortunately for Edge, the most logical answer in this case doesn’t involve him being alive…
But again, the dragon always left the dragoons alone after their goal was completed, the same thing happened with Edge as well perhaps. You could argue that the dragon first took the dragoons to safety but perhaps he was safe enough in Sestren… Or since we have no idea how the dragon itself got out, maybe he did take Edge with him but then left him at the “exit” and went off to a new hybernation place as always… We know for sure that Edge was alive after the DV got out of him, why would he die after that sequence? Maybe there was no way out for “mortals” just creations of the ancients…
Anyway what I’m saying here is this
a) Edge didn’t die because the dv left him
b) Edge might not have died, we don’t know for FACT, like many other things, his death IS the most likely thing to have happened BUT there are other POSSIBLE alternatives with the info we have.
this whole idea of a “divine vistor” “from the outside world” that enters the world of the game reminds me of that show reboot from years ago.
[quote=“Lance”]
If you remember, Azel confessed at one point that she didn’t actually know anything about Sestren - only its name, and that she could open the “gateway” to it.[/quote]
But was she telling the truth?
Exactly. It’s very similar to Iva’s story actually. We don’t exactly know what happened to Iva at the end either.
I think you might have missed my earlier post; the Divine Visitor is still meant to be in Edge all the way through everything we see of him, including that final sequence. To reiterate:
The player has been behind the screen holding the control pad all along, so Edge looking at the screen isn’t actually evidence of the Divine Visitor leaving him. Importantly, during that final scene the Heresy Program states that the Divine Visitor is “the one who dwells inside Edge” in the present tense, which shows that the Divine Visitor is guiding Edge during even that final scene.
I think we should probably assume that she is, given that she’d have no obvious motivation to lie… theoretically any of the characters in any of the games could be “lying to us” about anything, but I’m hoping that Team Andromeda and Smilebit aren’t that cruel.
I’ve got to say I think Iva’s story leaves a little less room for doubt… after all, Iva had run out of the medicine that kept him alive, and no cure or alternative way out was offered or suggested to him or to the player. I think the ending they gave us was themed around a “positive” conclusion, rather than us simply seeing Iva die. That would probably come across as being a bit morbid, especially seeing as his story was pretty tragic anyway…
You are right Lance, I missed that post, I read it now though and I don’t think I can agree with it, I’m certain that the way this view was made, it’s movement and everything, was meant to be a new specific for the scene first person view of the event by the DV and not the “camera view” we have while playing the game. If the HD wanted to talk to “the one who dwells within…” why would he turn to the camera and not to Edge? Why didn’t they put this new viewpoint be from within Edge’s eyes instead?
Btw that last quote you have wasn’t from me, it was from D-Unit, I haven’t finished Iva’s story so I can’t comment on it.
[quote=“Lance”]
I think we should probably assume that she is, given that she’d have no obvious motivation to lie… theoretically any of the characters in any of the games could be “lying to us” about anything, but I’m hoping that Team Andromeda and Smilebit aren’t that cruel.[/quote]
I was just wondering how she could know Sestren might escape through the Tower if she didn’t even know what it really was.
[quote=“Lance”]
I’ve got to say I think Iva’s story leaves a little less room for doubt… after all, Iva had run out of the medicine that kept him alive, and no cure or alternative way out was offered or suggested to him or to the player. I think the ending they gave us was themed around a “positive” conclusion, rather than us simply seeing Iva die. That would probably come across as being a bit morbid, especially seeing as his story was pretty tragic anyway…[/quote]
I agree, but I just mean that we can’t be 100% certain he died, just like in Edge’s case.
i’m not sure i adhere to that, i think they definitely meant to imply that something had changed by having edge look directly at you in recognition of you being the DV and guiding him. if the game had been in first person the entire time, then went third person for that scene, it would have been more obvious but i think there is more significance in that maneuver than the idea that the DV never left edge theory is giving it credit for.
i proposed earlier that edge could not die from his wound while in the sestren, which would follow the same reasoning as him not decomposing in it either. if edge were to leave the sestren, death would catch up with him.
EDIT: al3xand3r beat me by 16 minutes… sepukku is the only answer 
Well it is literally stated that the Divine Visitor is still bonded with Edge in that scene, no matter what the milder implications might be; and the fact is that you are genuinely both behind the screen and “dwelling within” Edge throughout the entire game. Just because the player sees themself entering into Edge as the white ball of healing light, does that mean for some reason that they’re not sitting behind the TV screen? Of course it doesn’t, in the same way that you sitting behind the screen in that final sequence does not necessitate that you have left Edge.
What seems to happen when Edge looks at the screen is that he comes to the realisation that you are there, watching and holding your control pad, even though you’ve obviously been there all along. The fact that the text literally states that the Divine Visitor is still “dwelling within” Edge during that scene backs this up and at least makes sense.
My mistake; I actually have no idea how your name got in there, as I was quoting directly from D-Unit’s post… anyhow, it’s fixed now.
Good point - presumably the Seekers told her about this possible “problem” at a later time. I honeslty can’t remember exactly when Azel says that she doesn’t know what Sestren is, but seeing as she spends so much time in the Seekers’ Stronghold towards the end of the game they apparently must have been the ones to tell her this other piece of information.
Realistically then, Azel might have known whether or not it was going to be a one-way trip, but only if the Seekers knew - and their view of Sestren did seem a bit vague. Still, I get the impression that she would indeed have let Edge know if she knew he was heading to certain imprisonment or death; or at least done something to suggest (to the player) that she knew.
Agreed; like I said, I was just pointing out that Edge’s fate seems a bit more debatable than Iva’s, as this thread is showing…
I can confirm that the Divine Visitor did leave Edge…
When the Heresy dragon asks the one who dwells within Edge to press the button to pave the way for a new beginning, we, the player, only just realise that we are the Divine Visitor (if you were outside of Edge’s body at that time it might serve to create some confusion). Then the screen goes black until we press a button on the Saturn controller. Only then does Edge actually see the Divine Visitor (the Divine Visitor could’ve left Edge’s body after or during the process of shutting down the Towers/switching off the ancients’ hibernation chambers).
The Divine Visitor was the player, but the player took the form of a very noticeable orb of buzzing white energy. Edge stares into the face of the Divine Visitor – a gender neutral entity serving as the eyes and ears of the player.
Edge wasn’t the only human to visit Sestren.
I’ve considered those things already and I honestly don’t believe that that’s confirmation, but here’s why:
All the way through the game, the player has been the white ball of light inside Edge. At the same time, the player has been sitting behind the TV screen. The fact that Edge notices that the player is behind the TV screen doesn’t in any way necessitate that the ball of white light has left his body, because even when the player was “dwelling within” Edge, they were behind the screen as well.
Thought the superficial suggestion may be that the player had left Edge by that time - that’s actually what I thought at first - Edge looking at the screen ultimately doesn’t prove anything, because even when the player was “within” Edge, they were behind the screen as well.
I don’t know if anyone’s considered this, but - how else would Team Andromeda show Edge talking to the Divine Visitor if it was indeed still inside him? They couldn’t have him trying to look at himself; that would be pretty silly. What they did seems like a logical solution; they have him looking at one of the two places where the “Divine Visitor” is - behind the screen, where you’ve always been anyway.
The fact that we clearly, emphatically see the Divine Visitor enter Edge’s body any yet we never see it leave is at least worth keeping in mind too, even if it’s not conclusive proof of anything.
Don’t suggest that Azel used the player’s gene data to construct Orta! Don’t!