I’d have to agree with Gehn here. The Panzer Dragoon world is original, and there’s no reason why someone can’t come up with something just as creative and implement it in a next generation game. Sure, games like Panzer Dragoon and Myst borrow elements from all sorts of places, but the way in which they put those elements together makes them distinctive and unique. While I personally love Tolkien type settings, something fresh and original can be even better, and it doesn’t have to be so far fetched that no one can relate to it. Now of course, developers do need to play things safe if they wish to survive, but more creative worlds in video games can help set their games apart and make them standout.
Well how original is it when there have been several discussions about the huge similarities it has with a certain anime and how inspired TA was by a certain artist?
Also, it’s still basically a post apocalyptic world, except with a twist, but still retaining many of the same things most all post apocalyptic settings have…
I don’t think it fits as much in the ‘original’ category as what Robert said about being distinctive without being wholly original… Or something along those lines.
Both Robert and Abadd’s examples were a bit out of context.We ar enot talking on extremes here.
The Panzer setting wasn’t unique in the sense that it was all completely original. It was, however, a unique hybrid of existing ideas. Post-apocalyptic worlds have been done to death, but throw in a few airships powered by the shell-like anti-gravity engines belonging to an ancient race, and then we begin to see something worth writing home about…
But even that’s not original, really. Throw in some laser-breathing dragons for good measure, and then we have something that’s a little different from the norm.
So where’s the next game?
To be completely honest, even Panzer isn’t original. Moebius, Nausicaa, etc are all where Panzer takes its inspiration.
I mean, there are ways to combine elements from various sources to create something interesting, but calling it unique is a bit misleading. Which brings me back to my point: hardly anything is truly unique without being just plain weird for weirdness’ sake.
For originality sake you mean.I don’t agree you.Even if I might not be in the position to give you better examples (you haven’t commented on Myst) the truth is in theory a bunch of cool and original things are possible.
It depends on what you call original.To me the concept of say… the SW lightsaber is an unique concept.
I’m not talking about worlds were even a homo sapien sapien would feel strange.There’s a certain barrier.And there are degrees of originality.If you are talking about dismissing all your culture, educatioan and memories and beeing able to create something then I say originality is impossible.But since originality was a word invented by Man and used by real people thruout (I well never know how to spell that word right,go ahead mock me :P) history in order to describe real events…
PS:Even tho I agree PD wasn’t really original when it was created I reckon that with Zwei and Saga and orta the world evolved alot.
Even in your earlier example, elements such are garden gnomes are taken from different places (such as, a garden :)), but I think we can agree that if a game did come out like that it sure would be classed as original, because of the way the elements were put together. Taking that into consideration, Panzer Dragoon could be called original too. No other game has those kind of warships, creatures, ancient structures, and style of dragon and puts them together in the way Panzer does. So what if it takes elements from Nausicaa, Moebius etc… those elements are mainly to do with the story anyway, Nausicaa and Panzer’s worlds still look completely different from each other in terms of appearance. However there are tons of games, movies, and books featuring medieval style characters and locations.
The point I’m trying to make is that something like Panzer is far more original than a game like Dragon Age in terms of visual style. If more games came out that had worlds as original as Panzer I think gamers would be better off.
Oh sure, I agree that Panzer puts elements together in a way to make them interesting, but it doesn’t necessarily make it original. Although, I have to argue that my cheese-world-garden-gnome-game could be argued as original, because as far as I know, there’s never been a game (or a story, that I know of) where the main character is a garden gnome. Hm… There are stories with moons made of cheese, though. Gah! Foiled again!
But in all seriousness, Panzer had a certain level of creativity, but we shouldn’t confuse that with originality. It was a unique setting for a video game, but it was as tyle and world view that had been explored before in different mediums.
But, again, as Gehn said, it depends on how you define originality. Gehn made the comparisons between NWN and WoW. I personally think WoW’s art style is extremely creative and done with immaculate detail. Its art style is vastly different from the world created by Tolkien, even though it borrows heavily from it, in terms of canon. Does that make it worth less?
I generally get the feeling that Gehn simply wants something that isn’t medieval fantasy, sci-fi, or modern. Myst would be his answer for that. But, even Myst borrows heavily from older stories such as Time Machine, or even Gulliver’s Travels, etc. As humans, there is a limitation to what we can identify with, in terms of setting. We have our past, our present, and our perceived future. We can take these and recreate them with accuracy (except for the future :P), romanticize them, or completely fantasize them… or even mix them. Not much else you can do 
Well yeah, I’ve said it before.Games that I consider original have me wondering what kind of visuals and sounds and people I’m going to meet next.In most other games I feel I could guess a lot of things upfront.
Myst’s only connection with those two examples is the fact that the character hasn’t got a clue of where/when he is.But the fulcral aspect I wanted to focus was the kind of “reality” games are based on.For example in the world of Myst everyone can be a god with a certain level of education.
But one of the bettr aspects is the fact that due to it’s nature the Myst universe is able to house all sort of cultures and species of flaura and fauna.I’m focusing on aesthetics I know but that’s exactly what tends to bore me in most games.
As for the past present future comment : there are certainly a lot of things going up in some conworlds that would never be in our future and bever were in our past.The one element you will have a super hard time getting rid of is human nature because , well these worlds are taught up by people.Maybe that’s what you meant.
I think there are different levels of originality, and Panzer Dragoon fits in there, as well as games like Warcraft or Neverwinter Nights. Nothing is completely original, but nothing is not original at all unless it’s an exact clone of something else. There’s no black and white “this is original, but this isn’t” cut off point. Games like Panzer Dragoon and Myst feels a lot more original because other more generic fantasy worlds have been covered in games so many other times. The chances of finding a game world bearing similarities to Panzer is considerably less, thus making Panzer Dragoon Saga’s game world more original than that of the majority of other RPGs.
The argument that Gehn seems to be making is that Bioware could make their best RPG ever if they came up with a game world featuring this amount of originality. I can’t stress how much I agree with him.
I actually think that Bioware’s most important place of improvement is in their direction, not setting. Sure, they could do some interesting things with setting, but interesting setting != better game automatically. LOTR was a fantastic movie, but had a “generic fantasy” setting. Does that make it a lesser film?
Bioware has a great system of allowing players to develop the personality of their avatar, and determine the dynamics of their own party. However, while doing that, you’re stuck watching talking heads, or horribly animated sequences with repeating motions. If they cleaned that up, you’d have a great game.
Interesting setting != better game automatically
I agree with you there.But since I haven’t been dissappointed with their games’ gameplay I’m wondering about a similar formula (altho I think they could improve some aspects that are getting a bit repetitive) with a different setting.It would be the cherry on top of the cake.
As long as the setting fits the story and it has fun gameplay, then I’m not gonna complain even though something new every once in a while would be nice.
Exactly
Once in a lifetime you mean 
I’d like to emphasise the distinction between “originality” and “creativity” that was mentioned earlier.
“Originality” describes something which has no forebears, and can genuinely be said to draw on no other discernible sources in order to formulate its particular characteristics. Others imitate it, but it cannot be interpreted to have emulated anything itself. Remember that the term is derived from “original” the first event from which other things proceed. I’d say that true originality is impossible to achieve - even if you create the most outlandish and esoteric environments and concepts, your brain has been informed by at least something in your life to view things in a particular light. If you were particularly anally-retentive, you might argue that the only original event in the fourteen thousand million years of the Universe’s history is the Lord saying “Let there be…”
“Creativity”, however, is not synonymous with “originality”. It might suggest so, being a derivative of “create”, but the only person who can create things ex nihilo is God and as much as I respect the members of this forum I don’t think any of you are the Risen Christ - everyone else creates by fashioning something out of raw materials. As such, creativity isn’t concerned with the identity of your sources (that comes under originality’s remit) but how you use them. If you fashion and sculpt your inspiration into something which is definably unique, then you have created something (failing to do otherwise is simply replicating) and so are being creative. Also, seeing as originality is like one of Plato’s Forms, an ideal that is impossible to practically achieve, it’s more a more useful to employ the word “innovative” to describe creativity more than originality.
As such, I’d say that semantically Panzer Dragoon is not an original game, but it is a creative and innovative one.
Question here! Is the setting of Nosgoth from Soul Reaver (havn’t played any other LOK games) original or creative? I havn’t seen any elements in it used in anything else. I’m talking about the world, I loved it and thought it was original, but maybe some of you have seen stuff like it before.
Well Nosgoth in the future ( Soul Reaver 1 era ) is quite different from older Nosgoth.LoK games tend to mix different style sin the same world.
I mean you can have something like the time streaming chamber and the something from Blood Omen 2 and then an Ancient construction like Janos Audron’s reatreat; all of them in the same world.I spretty eclectic a world specially since you often travel thru time. (in case you dind’t know)
Part of Nosgoth is quite creative but in other parts you can see they were heavily influenced by gothic architecture.
As far as symbolism goes I used to read entire threads concerning the LoK games were it was explained how real world mythos were put into the game.
The meaning of Raziel’s blue color…there is symbolism in everything.That’s why Q&A with Crytal Dynamics is such a treat for us fans.
The names Raziel,Turel,Dumah etc
Most are names of angels each with it’s ironic translation.Moebius (as in moebius stripe) is a name often related to infinite and time.It was no mere coicidence that the time streamer Moebius from the LoK games has this name.
The first game Bloo Omen wasn’t suposted to feature such an unsual world.In the first game you jst have yourself pretty much a gothic vampire game.They change that (evidently) a lot with Soul Reaver trying to make things more “different” and unusual.What I’d personally call original.
(I would but I’m not allowed to by a certain group fo people :P)
In the end you can recognize a lot of things in Nosgoth but that’s also because it was primarly based on a medieval world were vampires coexisted with humans.
There are a lot of original/creative concept s in the game that I haven’t seen anywhere tho.The most iconi of which is the speactral plane.
[quote=“Robert Frazer”]
As such, I’d say that semantically Panzer Dragoon is not an original game, but it is a creative and innovative one.[/quote]
Oh not its not original at all, its basicaly Star Fox, Space Harrier taken to the next level 
.
What was different and original was for the 1st time a shooter had a deep and meaning full story, where I actual cared about the world and the characters, but there I?ve always been a fan of Dragons since a kid.
It had some truly unique and amazing Art design (especially on the bosses), which looked so organic and alive, and it also had its own totally unique language (amazing for a shooter).
One could believe a world like that, could exist. The effort that went into this was incredible for what is in effect a standard 3D shooter.
One thing though if SEGA make an ORTA II, I love to see the original view come back. I loved seeing the Blue Dragon tail and wings from the Rider point of view
gamespot.com/news/2005/07/25/news_6129703.html
If this won’t make japanese people buy more Microsoft consoles I don’t know what will.