Abadd, I certainly didn’t think it was anything to warrant apology, just maybe I think you actually were speaking for yourself mostly. I know the esteem you have for ICO, and I may remember you mentioning Evangelion as an appreciated Anime, I get an impression you may have a particular affinity for minimalist, even outright abstracted styles of storytelling. That’s a relative preoccupation of Anime in general, and JRPG’s tend to inherit the sensibility, but while Panzer Dragoon is a rather acute example of impressionism in narration, the series has also communicated an uncommonly exacting backbone of history and device.
Now I don’t know exactly how close you are, but I do wonder sometimes if you’re too close to the material to even be objective about some things. As you like to remind us periodically, you’re not here for all the same reasons as the rest of us… so for that matter I have to wonder if you even would be here, all else being equal, if you weren’t as close to the subject? Would (did?) these games really hook you, as just a gamer? I ask because of the occasional effacing opinion you’ve dropped about a game in the series…
I’m not doubting your general love for these games, but having watched the man behind the curtain for too long, witnessed the production, do you actually see the product for what it is? That’s really the only reason your potential condescension might be in any way objectionable, as in only coming from you it could be read something like: “trust me, you don’t want to know…” but I don’t actually think that’s how you meant it, especially now.
But having said that, this seems to be the point I’m trying to get across… are the details most of us aren’t privy to necessarily so uninspiring? Or could they yet be like premium-quality materials, completely unremarkable to an unpracticed eye, waiting to inspire an actual story and have their qualities revealed to all?
Who knows if that’s what Lucas had originally planned Vader to be like as a teenager/young adult? It is possible that he didn’t have Vaders character planned out exactly like that when he made the original trilogy.
Still, people can and do change a lot in twenty years. It’s quite possible for a person in real life to be a rebellious punk in their teenage years and then turn into a responsible buisnessmen by the time they’re forty. Although I can understand why Anakin’s personality in the prequels might spoil the illusion of Darth Vader always being a badass for some One other thing, the transformation from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader is still missing quite a large chunk of time where we see him evolve from the weak-minded young Anakin into the character in the original trilogy. Perhaps the TV series will show more of this transformation.
I guess that would partially depend on how much the Emperor had poisoned the people of the Empire against the Jedi. But also, not everyone would have thought that the Force was an old myth. For people who were born after or near the end of the prequel-era would likely be skeptical that the Jedi really could use the Force. Han Solo probably didn’t encounter any Jedi who could use the Force in his life time before he met Luke. It makes sense given his background that he would be skeptical of the Force. I’m sure there would still be people who remembered the legacy of the Jedi, but for the more skeptical the word ?myth?probably wouldn’t seem so far from the truth to them. Some people need to see something before they convince themselves that it happened.
Here’s a direct link to the intro of Panzer Dragoon Saga:
And at the time Han Solo was around which was also when Boba Fett had grown up, Han Solo was a bounty hunter, Boba Fett was second to him pretty much as he had his father’s (Jango Fett) instincts and skill. Also the Jedi council and the remainder of the jedi were long gone as well as on the very edges of the universe.
I personally do not see what everyone saw in Star Wars, in general. I thought it was poor storytelling all around…a third grader could write a better script than that drivel. When I think of Star Wars, I generally think of other crappy movies like Never Ending Story to compare it to. Even The Goonies outranks it…which is quite sad.
In retrospect, however, I don’t think I’ve ever watched a really good movie before, and this is due to the fact that they all tend to insult my intelligence in some form or another. Unfortunately, it appears that videogames are following the same path, nowadays. With the exception of Panzer Dragoon Saga, I have yet to play a game that doesn’t insult my intelligence, and also immerses me in a grand illusion that I can feel a part of. PDS is the ONLY game that has done that, so far - and I fear that shall forever remain so. My hat goes off to Kondo-san for thinking up such a brilliant game - too bad he’s dead. (And I’m sure he’s rolled in his grave several times due to the shittiness of Orta)
[quote=“Gehpnaet”]
You gotta watch more movies and play more games.A Amy Hennig written Panzer Dragoon Action/Adventure/RPG game could still be better.[/quote]
I like the Legacy of Kain series…very good writing. The gameplay, on the other hand, is a bit stale.
Also, I’ve seen almost all of the drivel out there. Not only do I pirate the shit, but I also watch it. This goes for games, as well. I’ve experienced everything…almost.
-EDIT- Oh, and the plotline in PDS regarding the Tower(s) is fucking brilliant. Very deep stuff.
No, I came across as condescending, which does warrant an apology However, the point I was making is still about “the general public,” rather than simply myself. But, as all things of this nature, it is merely an opinion. An opinion which is based, however, on lengthy anecdotal observations of audience reactions to various media, as well as “professional” observations based on research, focus test results, and whatnot (mostly anecdotal, however, so no need to take my opinion over any opinion that you have of your own).
Very astute observation Yes, I do prefer a minimalist approach to storytelling. Like they always say, “Show, don’t tell.”
Actually, I disagree with your assertion that it’s a general preoccupation in anime and JRPGs. In fact, it’s exceedingly rare. Most anime and JRPGs seem to be inspired heavily by sentai shows where bag guys are constantly monologuing, dialog is often heavy-handed, and the symbolism is never less than obvious (and rarely ever goes more than one layer deep). I think that is why I games like Ico, Evangelion, or PDS stick out in my mind as great examples of how the respective mediums can work better (IMO) with minimalistic approaches to storytelling.
A fair assumption. My experiences with the subject material do color my opinions, but I try my best to keep those under control. To be honest, I never even owned a Saturn until after I had already bought a Dreamcast. I’m not sure how I would have reacted to the original 2 Panzer Dragoons when they came out, but regardless, I would have still loved PDS. Orta, on the other hand, is a far trickier question. What I can say is that I honestly enjoy the final results. I have a lot of issues with portions of the game, but the overall experience, for me, is very enjoyable. Ask Lord Craymen… we’ve had many debates over the quality of that game, but I still feel that it is a great addition to the Panzer series, and a great evolution of the shooter aspects of the series. Does it live up to user expectations as a follow-up to PDS? I personally don’t think so, but it’s a great game for what it is.
As a sort of rhetorical question: can any fan be really objective when talking about the object of their fandom?
There are definitely times where I’ve said things to deliberately hint at the latter, but I still genuinely enjoy games - even the ones I am “close” to. Sometimes certain experiences do taint a game for me, but I can still remain relatively objective about it. While I have no personal investment in the game, I have a distinct dislike for Final Fantasy X, for example (I know that many here feel the same way). However, this dislike isn’t born of a need to bash it because of its popularity, it’s born of two reasons: I used to be an FF fan, and also because I dislike the narrative style. However, I still understand the reasons behind its success.
Hm… That’s a difficult question. Let’s just say that in my experience, I have met very few people (possibly none) who are so completely and amazingly creative that every idea they spout out is a work of art. There are details that I do know that are very cool, and other details that are fairly mundane. In the end, it’s the fans, however, that will decide whether or not the untold story is really what they were looking for. And that’s where the trouble lies. Panzer is one of those cases where it had a cult hit that has taken on a sort of legendary status… those sorts of expectations are difficult to live up to.
It does for me , it almost every way its the equal and in some way better than Zwei in my eyes (bar the rather cheap 9th level)
I couldn’t ask for any more from the game or the Team that made it, I really don’t get the ORTA hate , I really don’t . Its by far the best 3D shooeter made since Zwei , and that at the end of the day is what the game is about to me
Very few Teams can come back to a IP and update it as well as what the Team did with ORTA (SEGA more than most )
Mind you I speak as someone that thinks that JSRF is a much better game than JSR .
I love to see a ORTA II more than a SAGA II myself
It does for me , it almost every way its the equal and in some way better than Zwei in my eyes (bar the rather cheap 9th level)
I couldn’t ask for any more from the game or the Team that made it, I really don’t get the ORTA hate , I really don’t . Its by far the best 3D shooeter made since Zwei , and that at the end of the day is what the game is about to me
Very few Teams can come back to a IP and update it as well as what the Team did with ORTA (SEGA more than most )
Mind you I speak as someone that thinks that JSRF is a much better game than JSR .
I love to see a ORTA II more than a SAGA II myself[/quote]
Panzer Dragoon is no longer about simply rail shooting! It actually has the most perfect universe ever created in the realm of videogaming or otherwise…and that universe can no longer be expressed through the predetermined rails of a shooter. If PDS did not exist, then yes, Orta would have been a fine addition to the Panzer Dragoon franchise…the problem is, PDS does exist, and expectations of the next panzer title were very high. Those expectations were not met, unfortunately (not even close), thus, the hatred of PDO came into being.
Also, I would like to add that the existence of Panzer Dragoon Orta is very disrespectful to the late Kondo-san. Originally, he created the Panzer Dragoon series as a trilogy and that was supposed to be the end of it. In addition, PDO almost makes the events that do occur in PDS completely meaningless, due to how the game is presented. With that said, the only way Sega can ever redeem itself and make things right with Kondo-san is make a PDS sequel which is not only worthy of the title, but surpasses the original entirely. This is the only way to make things right at this point. Period.
[quote]Panzer Dragoon is no longer about simply rail shooting! It actually has the most perfect universe ever created in the realm of videogaming or otherwise…and that universe can no longer be expressed through the predetermined rails of a shooter. If PDS did not exist, then yes, Orta would have been a fine addition to the Panzer Dragoon franchise…the problem is, PDS does exist, and expectations of the next panzer title were very high. Those expectations were not met, unfortunately (not even close), thus, the hatred of PDO came into being.
[/quote]
Well its nice to see you come out and admit the only reason you really hate ORTA is becasue it’s not a RPG when we get down it . and this talk about the game universe isn’t doing anything for me .
There’s loads of games out there with a rich universe which could be used has a basis for a RPG?s or a diff take on the game respected genre , games like HALO have a pretty big story to tell , that doesn?t mean BUNGiE should make the series into a RPG, even the likes of RadiantSilver Gun have a pretty deep story to it , but if we?re ever to see a part II I want it to be a shooter , I’m shocked that Capcom haven’t made Resident Evil RPG
I care about the gameplay and when it comes to 3D shooters is doesn?t get much better than the Dragoon series , and I would love to see another.
No it does not i, ts fits quite well into the story of Dragoon and ORTA sets up a chance of another one inthe series be that a Shooter or RPG in the time line of ORA. . Not bad when one looks at the ending of SAGA , and how to most the series and the game should have ended right there.
Virtual Fighter series from what I remember was only ever ment to go up to part 5, HALO is ment to be a Trilogy , but you can bet they?ll be more , because the fans and no doubt shareholders will demand them .
Fine by all means have a go at ORTA art direction and how it doesn?t quite fit to the series or how its not a better shooter than Zwei, that’s all fine and fair enought . But to knock the game for not being a RPG and then hate it (for that one reason) is pure and utter nonsense imo
If you wanna try out new games then I suggest the Halo series is a good one to play. Only for Xbox though. Oh and don’t even bother getting PS3, it is extremely bad and has completely lost its reputation. The Console even overheats for christ sake!
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
Fine by all means have a go at ORTA art direction and how it doesn?t quite fit to the series or how its not a better shooter than Zwei, that’s all fine and fair enought . But to knock the game for not being a RPG and then hate it (for that one reason) is pure and utter nonsense imo[/quote]
I didn’t like Orta not because it wasn’t an RPG (even though that did play a factor) but because the script was terrible, the art designs did not match the trilogy, and the music was quite stale this time around. Orta was an absolute disappointment, and it’s something I want to forget. The only thing that I thought was worthwhile in Orta was the awesome Encyclopedia…that’s it.
I still like it, of course I do not care if ppl hated it either, good to have ppl who can criticise on it too so that way Pandora’s box never makes the same mistakes again. The reason why it was a Rail Shooter was because they wanted to bring back the feeling of the Original Panzer Dragoon game as it was a Rail Shooter. Though yes I will be even more pleased if the series is returned to its RPG state.
I don’t care what genre they make it as long as it’s quality stuff. Orta to me wasn’t bad because it wasn’t an RPG, it was bad because it didn’t live up to the legacy of the previous shooters, especially Panzer Dragoon Zwei. It was good as a shooter, but it wasn’t that good as a Panzer Dragoon game to me. No moment in Orta was as magical as the journey you went through in Zwei.
Perhaps the story in Zwei was very limited but the way it was told, and played, it was one of the best experiences in a game, all the more important because it was done via a simple shoot em up scheme. Orta is just a good shoot em up, I didn’t feel attached the the world (even though I knew a LOT more about it than I did when I played Zwei) or characters at all. Sure it had MORE story, with dialogues and such, but not of the same level in my opinion.
Also as a game Orta also got rather repetitive and perhaps hectic. Zwei was a very easy game but with that said it took a LONG time (for me atleast) for it to get boring. I could replay and glide through the levels many. many times and still have that magical feeling of awe at this beautiful setting and journey.
With Orta, playing through it once was enough for me. I’ve gotten to play it a few more times since but I didn’t even feel like going through it al the way to the end. I’d like to have the game so that I can unlock all the Pandora’s Box stuff (I was fond of the imperial’s journey, it had its problems but felt a bit like Zwei in story style) but it wasn’t worth buying an Xbox for to me…
Also, with the exception of the third stage boss (who was really cool), the boss designs were incredibly stupid looking. I think anyone who is a true fan, and witnesses the fourth stage boss for the first time, will puke as well. Someone was smoking some serious shit when they came up with those designs.
Personally, I thought some of the Boss battles were good in Orta, the music to them was acceptable too. The way they designed the creatures and bosses was pretty good too. And I am sure there are some fans of the PD series that would agree with me here, of course there would be plenty more who would hate the game, however I like it and still do. Though I must admit, when I died a number of times on a certain level, that was shit and I eventually got sick of the entire level, altogether. My main goal then was to just get the level over and done with. But hey, I still love the game nonetheless.
I agree. Without Orta, we won’t much fans because Orta is the newest PD out there. The game is meant to bring back the good days of the PD series.
Kadamose, I don’t know about you. You seem to grow obessed to Saga and keep saying shit to Orta. It’s not Orta’s fault that the series is mostly forgotten. Out of 100 Saga fans out there, there are some who don’t actually played the game, some were watching videos, begining to end and some became Saga fans because it came from the word of mouth,etc.
Orta is a sequal to Saga. I don’t have a problem with the looks of the bosses. It was meant to be different, to make it like a fantasy, like Moebius’ Arzach.
There won’t be a PDS sequel because Orta IS a sequel to Saga unless another PD game takes place between Saga and Orta.
[quote=“Light Wing”]I agree. Without Orta, we won’t much fans because Orta is the newest PD out there. The game is meant to bring back the good days of the PD series.
Kadamose, I don’t know about you. You seem to grow obessed to Saga and keep saying shit to Orta. It’s not Orta’s fault that the series is mostly forgotten. Out of 100 Saga fans out there, there are some who don’t actually played the game, some were watching videos, begining to end and some became Saga fans because it came from the word of mouth,etc.
Orta is a sequal to Saga. I don’t have a problem with the looks of the bosses. It was meant to be different, to make it like a fantasy, like Moebius’ Arzach.
There won’t be a PDS sequel because Orta IS a sequel to Saga unless another PD game takes place between Saga and Orta.[/quote]
This coming from someone who has obviously never played PDS (or has never truly analyzed it). You should really play through PDS and see why it’s so raved about - look at the cinematography and the absolute godlike camera angles. Everything about PDS reeks of polish - the same cannot be said about Orta, and this is why it is hated so much. You can’t expect anyone, especially myself, to respect a game that went from absolute perfection to mediocrity - that’s asking too much.
PDS is the greatest game ever made, and that’s never going to change until there is a ‘proper’ sequel.
One other thing, the transformation from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader is still missing quite a large chunk of time where we see him evolve from the weak-minded young Anakin into the character in the original trilogy. Perhaps the TV series will show more of this transformation.
. and this talk about the game universe isn’t doing anything for me .