I’m not sure that I agree with the whole “ravages of time” thing - remember that the pure-type organic weapons of the Ancient Age were capable of surviving for upwards of ten thousand years, and the Impurity had mutated the dragon’s body until it was, itself, such a creature. Even if the Impurity was no longer with it, I am convinced that the whole “mortality” element was focused on the fact that the dragon could no longer take as much physical damage, rather than anything to do with old age. (Though I admit the dragon does look a bit grizzled and aged in PD Orta, isn’t the implication that he died from the exhaustion of the final battle?)
Surely the physical dragon had already split from the Impurity immediately before Saga’s ending sequence - hence the reason why Edge is confronted by the Impurity itself in that scene, and not the composite dragon? Destroyed or deactivated, either way it seems that the Impurity is no more, and that it has been thus for a long time (i.e. since the Great Fall). How could the physical dragon have only recently seperated from it if this is so?
Besides, you’re forgetting the most obvious evidence: the physcial dragon must have been alive and out in the world immediately after Saga, because Gash hears the beating of its wings in his epilogue. I really don’t think that there is any other way to explain this, whereas the dragon’s long absence could be due to it roaming in different parts of the world - the Empire isn’t worldwide, after all - or by it resting at that time. I feel the evidence opposing a recent split from the Impurity is much harder to explain away…
Ok, I’m now convinced that Lagi probably split from the Heresy dragon after defeating Sestren, but during the ending cinematic when Edge meets the black Heresy dragon face to face, Lagi is evidently still a part of it as shown by the various dragon heads rising from the surface of the Heresy dragon’s body. Still, there’s enough evidence to support the claim that the Heresy dragon in all its glory still exists deep within the bowels of Sestren space. I’m led to believe it was in fact deactivated at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga as opposed to destroyed.
I’ll need to give this some more consideration.
I always thought Lagi made it to the rendezvous point for the sake of informing Gash of Edge’s demise, otherwise I can easily imagine Gash’s senses playing tricks on him even if that bears all the hallmarks of a vain attempt at providing an alternative explanation. The dragon must’ve felt obligated to share the news of his friend’s death.
I’m curious, Geoffrey - just why do you believe that the Impurity / Heresy Dragon still exists? (If you think that we’re seeing it in real-time - as opposed to as a recording - in Episode 7 of PD Orta, how do you explain the points I raised above? Specifically, the ones in the post beginning: “No, I can’t see it as anything other than a recording, and I’ll explain why…”)
I’d honestly never thought through it that much - that’s an interesting idea. The impression I personally got from that sequence was that Gash was still alone at the end of it, and that despite the dragon coming near, he did not physically encounter it. I’ll watch it again at some point - I guess what happens before / after the specific events in an FMV sequence is totally open to speculation.
[quote](( Your mission is completed. Yet, you still wish to remain? ))
(( Your body is fragile and mortal now. ))
(( Your life will more than likely end out there if you continue. ))
(( Alright, I understand. ))
(( Farewell, my other half… ))
(( I must rest… ))
(( Watch over our friends for me… ))
[/quote]
What do you think the Heresy Dragon meant by “Watch over our friends for me…”?
If converstaion took place just after the ending sequence where the Heresy Dragon speaks to Edge, is it possible that he means Azel and Edge? Maybe Edge didn’t die there after all, (although, this isn’t very likely, but I don’t see why Edge has to have died there, I mean, if the physical dragon could leave Sestren why couldn’t Edge leave with it after the Heresy Dragon was deactivated?) if this were true, then Edge may well have been riding the Dragon during the scene at the end of Saga…
It’s also possible (and more likely) that he is refering to the Seekers, and that it why the Dragon goes to the rendezvous point at the end of Saga.
Something i just though of while writing this is that the Heresy Dragon says “You body is fragile and mortal NOW” doesn’t this suggest that, although there have been alot of theories that oppose it, it IS Lagi in every game, because if he was immortal before, then he couldn’t possibly have died at the end of Zwei…
If Edge managed to leave Sestren, he would’ve met Gash at the appointed time and place, and Azel would’ve found him too instead of resorting to using gene data of Edge from inside Sestren to create Orta who she called the answer to her “fruitless searches”.
This sentence strikes me as something said in the present tense. “If you continue” implies Lagi has been existing in the world as a mortal for some time now.
Yeah, i didn’t think it was very likely, but does anyone have any idea why he died?[/quote]
I suspect separating from the Divine Visitor brought his life to an abrupt end. The presence of the Divine Visitor kept him alive until their task was complete.
It seems clear to me that Edge didn’t get the choice Lagi had, or he would have returned to the surface world. I would like to know what would have happened to Lagi if he had chosen not to return, because that may be exactly what happened to Edge.
I’m not sure btw if Azel’s “fruitless searches” is supposed to refer to her search for Edge. I think she meant Orta is the answer to her question “Why were we brought into this world?”. In fact, wouldn’t Lagi have told her what happened to Edge? That may even be the reason he chose to return.
We know Azel was searching for Edge in the final Panzer Dragoon Saga ending cinematic, so why would “fruitless searches” mean anything other than her futile search for Edge? She used the DNA of Edge who was the only person to visit Sestren to create Orta rather than Edge himself, after all, which meant he was dead.
But again, wouldn’t it be strange if Lagi didn’t tell Azel what happened in Sestren? He knew about Orta, which means he must have encountered Azel after he returned to the surface world.
This sentence strikes me as something said in the present tense. “If you continue” implies Lagi has been existing in the world as a mortal for some time now.[/quote]
My understanding was that it meant “your life will more than likely end out there if you continue without me to protect you.” I’m quite sure that the dragon was always able to die, but that it’s powers of resilience were greatly lowered by the Impurity leaving it in this scene.
I’m with Geoffrey on this one too. I think her “Why were we brought into this world?” musing was more of an intellectual tangent than her life’s purpose.
Though I agree that this is possible, I doubt that it is the case. My best guess was that the dragon found out about Orta because Abadd was searching for her, or from hearing that the Seekers were keeping her imprisoned. There is also no reason to believe that Azel would have any idea of the fate that would befall Orta. She certainly wouldn’t have intended it, so how could she have told the dragon where to find her?
I’m also not sure that the dragon is even capable of literally communicating with humans anymore (i.e. without the aid of the Impurity). He never “explains” who he is to Orta, or even communicates his identity and nature to her: not even with the “swirly tunnel of light” that was used on Lundi and Edge. I think that if the dragon was capable of such communication, it would certainly take advantage of it. Thus, it must not be.
[quote=“Lance”]Though I agree that this is possible, I doubt that it is the case. My best guess was that the dragon found out about Orta because Abadd was searching for her, or from hearing that the Seekers were keeping her imprisoned. There is also no reason to believe that Azel would have any idea of the fate that would befall Orta. She certainly wouldn’t have intended it, so how could she have told the dragon where to find her?
I’m also not sure that the dragon is even capable of literally communicating with humans anymore (i.e. without the aid of the Impurity). He never “explains” who he is to Orta, or even communicates his identity and nature to her: not even with the “swirly tunnel of light” that was used on Lundi and Edge. I think that if the dragon was capable of such communication, it would certainly take advantage of it. Thus, it must not be.[/quote]
I always supposed that Lagi and Azel encountered each other shortly after the events of PD Saga. Even if Lagi wasn’t capable of talking to Azel, she was probably able to interface with the dragon since she was a drone. The way the dragon eye in the beginning of PD Orta opens and then closes again in the opening scene seems to indicate that Lagi was hibernating at that time, which is probably why he didn’t arrive at Orta’s location earlier. So I doubt he was actually paying attention to the events around him. He only reacted when Orta was in real danger. Who would be better capable of protecting Orta than Lagi himself? It would only seem logical that Azel actually asked him to protect her daughter when she would be gone.
I like this - it’s a good theory. I do suspect that you’re forgetting one point, though:
Orta is - I’m sure this is confirmed somewhere - about 16 years old, and PD Orta takes place about 37 years after Saga. Azel, therefore, only found her entrance back to Sestren through that ruin facility we see in PD Orta, and made Orta, 21 years after the end of Saga.
So even if the dragon did bump into Azel immediately after Saga, she would have had no idea that she would eventually create Orta back then. She was still on her quest for Edge at the time, and presumably would be for roughly the next 21 years.
If Lagi was in some kind of a hibernation or stasis during most of this time - or if he was merely roaming in a different part of the world, as I suggested earlier - it would explain why there are no records of dragons in the intervening time. Unfortunately, that would also mean that he could not really have met Azel during this time; if he was flying around as he did of old, surely one individual from the Empire, or a Seeker, or a resident of the Frontier, would have noticed him?
I also suspect that Azel and Lagi bumping into each other would be somewhat of a coincidence, too, given the size of the world.
It seems clear that Abadd found out about Orta from whatever information Azel left behind, inside Sestren and inside the ruin facility, when she created her. As the dragon had access to the Sestren system - as several places in PD Orta confirm, the System still thinks of it as the “master” - it would make sense to me if it also found out in this way. Probably more likely, though, is that it just found out what the Empire / Abadd was up to and followed them to Orta’s prison. It does seem to be kind of implied that the dragon followed them there, after all.
[quote=“Lance”]I like this - it’s a good theory. I do suspect that you’re forgetting one point, though:
Orta is - I’m sure this is confirmed somewhere - about 16 years old, and PD Orta takes place about 37 years after Saga. Azel, therefore, only found her entrance back to Sestren through that ruin facility we see in PD Orta, and made Orta, 21 years after the end of Saga.[/quote]
I’m not sure if Orta’s actual age is known though. I seem to remember that it wasn’t, she just looked 16 years old.
But if Lagi informed Azel about what happened, why would she still have to search? And about Azel not knowing she would create Orta then… I think you should watch the ending of PD Saga again.
I’m sure that it isn’t revealed in the game, but I do seem to remember reading it somewhere and believeing it. I could be mistaken, though - can anyone clear this up?
Oh no, my point is that I don’t think Lagi could have informed her, because of the unlikeliness of their meeting one another by chance. I’m convinced that Azel did indeed search for an extremely long time before at last deciding to create Orta; her choice of words in the message she left seems to indicate a long and emotionally trying struggle.
I’m not sure I get what you mean…
My point was that I didn’t think Azel could have known that she would find a recording of Edge’s gene data stored inside Sestren; she didn’t know any details about Sestren at all, as she said herself. Also, how could she know that she could necessarily modify Edge’s code by splicing it with her own, in order to make the template for Orta? And how could she have known that she would also chance across that production facility where she could actually create Orta? Or, after all that, how could she have known that the Seekers would eventually imprison Orta in Yelico Valley, and so tell the dragon to go there?
I don’t think it’s impossible, but you must admit, that’s an awfully large amount of information to assume Azel had back then…