Actually I think the thing that stops Panzer from selling is its distinct art style- it just isn’t mainstream enough.
The only Fantasy games that sell well (Oblivion, Fable, WoW) are the classic European “Tolkien” style worlds.
“Japanese fantasy games” in general just don’t sell as well as they used to- you see classic brands still being strong on their name recognition (like Final Fantasy) but you see companies like Capcom going more for a real-world take on their new IPs like Dead Rising.
The only way to do a mainstream Panzer would be:
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Have THE best graphics. Graphics sell. Gears of War is pretty simple game but with amazing graphics. People will buy amazing looking games just to show off their system or new HD TV to friends. People bought Fight Night just to show off their latest gear.
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Mold the design on other popular designs. Make it Action Adventure like GTA or a shooter like Halo, simple action RPG like Fable, etc. Innovation in design does not sell.
Lair won’t sell very well, (as in, I doubt it will make its money back) btw. It is too out there and people won’t want that game. Plus every preview says the execution just isn’t there.
Funny you mention those three games because I think all 3 of them innovated in terms of design in one way or another.
Halo singlehandedly changed the control scheme/health system/weapon limitations for every game after it.It also introduced vehicles.It changed the industry quite a lot in terms of gameplay design.Sure it didn’t change the genres labels (action adventure,RPG,FPS etc) but in the end those don’t matter.
GTA popularized both the concept and the term “sandbox gaming” in the industry.
Fable’s aging and human interaction system also was quite different from what had been done up until that point.
So I think innovation DOES sell.Not all innovation of course (Katamari Damacy…).
Also if the gameplay is good people can overcome most of their fears towards truly original art style.That is my belief anyway.
I think you are right they innovated, at least in terms of mainstream popularization. Many of the ideas had been around in PC games but were fairly new to consoles.
But they are more derivative, obvious evolutions with great execution- GTA was parts of Driver, Halo parts of Tribes (and owing a big part to FPS genre in general), Fable is kind of an evolution of a adult Zelda + Bioware morality- if you look at games like Okami or Killer 7 or Electroplankton or Flow or Ragdoll Kung Fu or or Psychonauts or REZ or ICO or Panzer Saga… if people want innovation, then they want it in a pretty safe package.
Also if the gameplay is good people can overcome most of their fears towards truly original art style.That is my belief anyway.<<
What games buck this trend? New Team Fortress might (but that is a famous series already), Zelda Wind Waker did but that was a pretty famous IP already as well …
[quote=“lagi_webmaster”]I think you are right they innovated, at least in terms of mainstream popularization. Many of the ideas had been around in PC games but were fairly new to consoles.
But they are more derivative, obvious evolutions with great execution- GTA was parts of Driver, Halo parts of Tribes (and owing a big part to FPS genre in general), Fable is kind of an evolution of a adult Zelda + Bioware morality- [/quote]
You can do that with anything though - I was batting baloons around on PC webcams years before Eye Toy, using motion sensors before Game Cube, let alone Wii, was even announced. It’s less about the innovation itself, and more about the overall execution of it.
I agree they have great execution- it is in my quote you copied. .
Is there any example of a new-ish game with a style or tone close to Panzer that has mainstream appeal?
i think it would be hard to sell a new panzer game no matter how great the graphics are or how innovative it is.
I think Orta was an example of how graphics aren’t enough to sell a game.
i think certain genres (fps, rpg) will sell if its different enough to separate itself from its counterparts, and certain brands (final fantasy, sonic) will sell because of the hype and fanbase
i think panzer will always have a loyal, yet small fanbase, and unfortunately that won’t be enough to grant us another game
Well, we got Orta didn’t we?
Lagi: The games you mentioned borrowed as much elements from older games as Halo or Fable or GTA and probably innovated as much as them.
It’s all circumstantial in the end.The original Panzer Dragoon was quite popular at the time despite it’s artistic style.Being one of the first 3D games was the main reason I’m sure.But the Saturn was a very expensive console…
Imagine a PD game came out on the Wii right now?Supposing it would have the same level of quality as past PD games, introduced some gameplay innovation and was marketed well enough do you have any doubt people would buy it?Specially since there are enough “children” games for the Wii.
Regardless that is not my wish.I’d rather see a PD game on the 360 or the PS3 if it eventually catches up.
That’s what I used to love about Sega in the 90s - they were risk takers, as well as innovators. They didn’t care about what other people thought about how they ran their business; unfortunately, this was a double edged sword, considering their marketing department was a joke and they just kept on pretending that nothing was wrong. Their games, however, were fantastic back then – and there isn’t a company yet who has been able to surpass Sega at their peak.
Another Panzer Dragoon would be very possible if the old risk-taking Sega were still around. Today, however, is another story. I honestly think the only way we’ll ever see another Panzer Dragoon game is if Sega sells the IP rights to another company…and when that happens, the death of the Panzer Dragoon series will be complete.
Considering Sega took risks to the point of almost destroying themselves, you can hardly blame them for being being more cautious now.
The old risk-taking Sega brought out plenty of amazing quality titles - new styles, new series, well reviewed in the magazines - nobody bought them (like you didn’t know already). Sonic Heroes sold really well, and even made them money. My point is this - Sega went all out on bringing gaming some truely fresh, wonderful games, and nobody bought them; then they changed tack and released average multiformat games and made a profit - don’t blame Sega for wanting to stay open, blame gamers for not buying the good stuff when it was there.
I really want to comment, but I just know it’s a waste of time.
The bottom line is you will see less games made by gamers for gamers because there’s just more money in ping pong for mobile phones played to distract someone while he’s riding on a bus for 5 mins.
[quote=“Kadamose”]That’s what I used to love about Sega in the 90s - they were risk takers, as well as innovators. They didn’t care about what other people thought about how they ran their business; unfortunately, this was a double edged sword, considering their marketing department was a joke and they just kept on pretending that nothing was wrong. Their games, however, were fantastic back then – and there isn’t a company yet who has been able to surpass Sega at their peak.
Another Panzer Dragoon would be very possible if the old risk-taking Sega were still around. Today, however, is another story. I honestly think the only way we’ll ever see another Panzer Dragoon game is if Sega sells the IP rights to another company…and when that happens, the death of the Panzer Dragoon series will be complete.[/quote]
A couple of things what’s the point in SEGA or any other corp making a new Panzer Dragoon game ??? , becasue unless it’s a RPG’s or made by the same SAGA script writters you’ll on moan and say its not a ‘True’ Panzer game anway .
2nd point , Its fair easier to be a risk taker when you’re a 1st party working on your own machine , never mind back inthe 90’s development costs were nothing like they are today . Its harder to do that these days, more so when you’re a 3rd party making games that sell on the market place, rather than games that need to be diff enough to sell your console
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
[quote=“Kadamose”]That’s what I used to love about Sega in the 90s - they were risk takers, as well as innovators. They didn’t care about what other people thought about how they ran their business; unfortunately, this was a double edged sword, considering their marketing department was a joke and they just kept on pretending that nothing was wrong. Their games, however, were fantastic back then – and there isn’t a company yet who has been able to surpass Sega at their peak.
Another Panzer Dragoon would be very possible if the old risk-taking Sega were still around. Today, however, is another story. I honestly think the only way we’ll ever see another Panzer Dragoon game is if Sega sells the IP rights to another company…and when that happens, the death of the Panzer Dragoon series will be complete.[/quote]
A couple of things what’s the point in SEGA or any other corp making a new Panzer Dragoon game ??? , becasue unless it’s a RPG’s or made by the same SAGA script writters you’ll on moan and say its not a ‘True’ Panzer game anway .
2nd point , Its fair easier to be a risk taker when you’re a 1st party working on your own machine , never mind back inthe 90’s development costs were nothing like they are today . Its harder to do that these days, more so when you’re a 3rd party making games that sell on the market place, rather than games that need to be diff enough to sell your console[/quote]
Uh, your first point is moot considering I just said that Sega isn’t capable of producing another Panzer Dragoon game - and if another company got their hands on the IP, the death of the Panzer Dragoon universe would be complete…because it would be botched to hell. I wasn’t, by any means, optimistically thinking that another great Panzer Dragoon game is around the corner — Sega shot all those hopes down with the crapfest that was Orta.
[quote=“Kadamose”]
Uh, your first point is moot considering I just said that Sega isn’t capable of producing another Panzer Dragoon game - and if another company got their hands on the IP, the death of the Panzer Dragoon universe would be complete…because it would be botched to hell. I wasn’t, by any means, optimistically thinking that another great Panzer Dragoon game is around the corner — Sega shot all those hopes down with the crapfest that was Orta.[/quote]
I think SEGA is very capable of producing another Panzer Dragoon game should the team really want to make other . Ther’s still plenty of talent inthe group , ORTA was beautiful in my eye’s .
Yeah story could have been a bit better and what not , but in many ways it was better than Zwei for me, though not quite up to the 1st game , but there again no 3D shooter comes close to the 1st game imo.
2nd point , Its fair easier to be a risk taker when you’re a 1st party working on your own machine , never mind back inthe 90’s development costs<<
That is the reason they could do that before- the risk wasn’t that huge, and they needed people to come to Saturn, even attract niches to it. Sony does that now with games like Ico.
For the game to have the best shot at mainstream appeal Action/Adventure is definitely the way to go I believe. My own vision of how to do it incorporates some particular aspects from a few of my other most favorite games - games that may even share influences with PD already - such as Tomb Raider.
And before anyone freaks out about that notion and cries “Heresy!”… I don’t think the game should be like Tomb Raider in any general sense, but if you were going to have on-foot action in a Panzer Dragoon game, then exploring huge ancient ruins would be very well served by a similar sensibility of elaborate architectural puzzles and meticulously represented environment interaction.
I can envision a scenario that would make for a perfect RTS-ish game as well, though it takes a certain liberty of assumption about the Ancient Age…
but if you were going to have on-foot action in a Panzer Dragoon game, then exploring huge ancient ruins would be very well served by a similar sensibility of elaborate architectural puzzles and meticulously represented environment interaction. <<
I have felt the same thing. You’d have all that exploration coolness as in SAGA, you would just be on foot instead of riding.
I thought it would be neat for you to more have to find the dragon, unearth the dragon, than just have it find you.
I wonder if the dragon itself being a mainfeature makes it niche- while a lot of games feature dragon riding as a mission or side thing, there isn’t a successful game I can point to where you are mostly on one- if Lair does well it will be the first.
I think flying in general is a mechanic people have an issue relating to, and is best in small doses. GTA does it well but it usually appears at the end as part of a build up. Halo has it but you aren’t flying for most of the game.
First things first people! They need to get Saga out to all the people that want to play it without paying ?80 to some skank on eBay.
Saga should be ported/emulated on PC, 360 and PS3, and released for download, disk by disk, episodically. Stranger things have happened.
That would give everyone a much better idea of whether another PD game is viable commercially.
I’d want a 360/PS3 game, from the people who did Orta, because it was a masterpiece. Nobody had any right to expect a better PD game considering it was from a mostly different team.
Work it out! If people thought ?80 was prohibitively expensive, all copies of PDS at that price would go unsold. Simple fact is people pay it, so people charge it.
I was once linked to an eBay of a copy going for $500…so thats what…roughly ?250?
I like the idea of on foot puzzle solving…it might allow for a chance for a deeper explanation into certain aspects, such as buildings or materials or whatever.
Shellcoof has always interested me, I could imagine an on foot bit through there like the ending video (the not perfect one) for Zwei.