Well given that you started this talking very much about the impressive 3D effects in RS and comparing it to Zwei in those terms you aren’t making perfect sense there either Parn. Most impressive use of the hardware is going to be very subjective unless it’s being discussed by people who have developed for it, even then it can be argued many ways. I will say that Zwei strikes me as a more impressive tech achievement than RS by far, and personally a more impressive example of visual craft as well.
But taken together with your hang-up about the framerate in the DC version of Rez it seems clear to me that’s the true spoiler for you, RS runs at 60fps compared to 30 (excluding cut scenes) for Zwei. And about Rez I think it bothers you so much because of the nature of the visual design, when what you’re seeing is usually simple shapes, often wireframe, colored in very high contrast to the background it will make the discrete frames very obvious.
You’re entitled to that opinion of course, but there’s not a single effect in Zwei that isn’t used in Radiant Silvergun as well. For example, the water effects that Andromeda spoke so highly of is in reality just a scaled bitmap with transparency effects and some simple warping. Radiant Silvergun uses higher resolution bitmaps, uses similar transparency effects, and utilizes its own warping effects (most blatant usage seen in stage 4).
The scaled bitmap thing is used in a lot of Saturn games, though some handled it better than others. Virtua Fighter 2 is a good example of it not being used effectively… the fighting arena isn’t quite sitting atop said scaled bitmap that represents the ground outside the arena, and it just looks weird. Panzer Dragoon Saga is a good example of them being used really well… Radiant Silvergun uses them even better. The last boss of Stage 3 is a good example of those scaled bitmaps being effectively used… the boss is all polygons, but that background the boss is riding up is nothing but a bitmap, and a really well detailed one at that.
Eh, this really is yet another case of apples versus oranges, I guess.
[quote=“Parn”]You’re entitled to that opinion of course, but there’s not a single effect in Zwei that isn’t used in Radiant Silvergun as well. For example, the water effects that Andromeda spoke so highly of is in reality just a scaled bitmap with transparency effects and some simple warping. Radiant Silvergun uses higher resolution bitmaps, uses similar transparency effects, and utilizes its own warping effects (most blatant usage seen in stage 4).
The scaled bitmap thing is used in a lot of Saturn games, though some handled it better than others. Virtua Fighter 2 is a good example of it not being used effectively… the fighting arena isn’t quite sitting atop said scaled bitmap that represents the ground outside the arena, and it just looks weird. Panzer Dragoon Saga is a good example of them being used really well… Radiant Silvergun uses them even better. The last boss of Stage 3 is a good example of those scaled bitmaps being effectively used… the boss is all polygons, but that background the boss is riding up is nothing but a bitmap, and a really well detailed one at that.
Eh, this really is yet another case of apples versus oranges, I guess.[/quote]
I don’t get it , that like saying RSG makes use of the Saturn sprite handling but so what they’re only sprit’s
Zwei and Saga both make great use of the VDP II much like RSG , and the use of the VDP II in Zewi is up they with any of that used in RSG. Ep 3 not only uses it for some of the best water effects you’ll ever see, but also on the part when the floor moves down and you see all the Dragonmares come down ect The’s great detail on the floor and on the ceiling plane that comes down to eventually replace the floor . Zwei made better use of the Saturn 3D tech (along with Virtual Cop 1& II and RSG made better use of Saturn overall power (thanks to using 2D and 3D ) much like Grandia (better than SF III) , Taromaru.
Other game which made great use of the VDP II was Last Bronx, Using the 2 planes of the VDP (the ones that could scroll) made the game look stunning when inside the carpark ect (with the Saturn drawing a 3D Floor and celling) . Decathele was another one and like Last Bronx running at High Res
Apples vs oranges is what many have been trying to get across I think, you’re talking about a “2.5D” game that has the luxury of keeping those higher-res bitmaps at roughly the same scale all the time. And other than those backgrounds, usually just VDP2 playfield effects, the only 3D rendering is at bosses and cutscenes, again having the luxury of very controlled scale.
I’d actually pick Mass Destruction as the best use of Saturn I’ve seen for 2.5D, not much in the way of effects but there’s just so many actual 3D models and pyrotechnics running at a flawless 60fps. I truly love the way Radiant Silvergun looks, and it’s a very appropriate use of what Saturn does well, it just doesn’t seem like it’s stretching the hardware in any way.
[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]Apples vs oranges is what many have been trying to get across I think, you’re talking about a “2.5D” game that has the luxury of keeping those higher-res bitmaps at roughly the same scale all the time. And other than those backgrounds, usually just VDP2 playfield effects, the only 3D rendering is at bosses and cutscenes, again having the luxury of very controlled scale.
I’d actually pick Mass Destruction as the best use of Saturn I’ve seen for 2.5D, not much in the way of effects but there’s just so many actual 3D models and pyrotechnics running at a flawless 60fps. I truly love the way Radiant Silvergun looks, and it’s a very appropriate use of what Saturn does well, it just doesn’t seem like it’s stretching the hardware in any way.[/quote]
Oh another Mass Destruction fan :), Bloody love that game i, ts a gem and the Saturn version is the best looking one of the lot , just a shame about the lack of 2 player mode . I agree with a lot of what you said, but RSG must be pushing the Saturn to its limits . It uses every Saturn trick inthe book and then some more .
Another game that’s got fanstic graphics but nobody apart from Duke goes on about is Die Hard Arcade , some ace 3D and Textures in that game.
Also love the graphics in BUG II , Some nice effects in that, one can almost smell the mist in the 2nd stage . Really wish SOA would make a Bug III the only fault of the BUG games were the lack of saves points making the game far too hard
Yeah Mass Destruction is a gem, for me it epitomises the sprit of true old-school videogames and contemporary polish. And the combination of the flawless 3D mapping of VDP2 playfields and that certain crispness of geometry Saturn had makes it indeed the best version.
Radiant Silvergun is probably pushing Saturn to it’s limits in many respects, but again, and this is obviously my opinion, it doesn’t exhibit anything that could be seen as stretching those limits. It’s more or less a glorified Mode 7 extravaganza.
This is just crazy, no launch for EU will mean the most to a lot of the most active people on this board, but that’s still not neccessarily Sony’s biggest problem. Only 400k for the US at launch and 100k in Japan? OUCH! And there’s no way shortages will work in their favor the same way it did for PS2. I knew years ago that Sony would find a way to screw the pooch with PS3, but this year has me almost feeling sorry for them… almost.
Now I’m just waiting for the announcement that Final Fantasy XIII will be premiering on Wii…
I think they’ve done the sensible (although not ideal) thing by delaying the EU launch - far better to have a significant number of units available than push forward with it anyway and leave game stores struggling with 100 preorders and only 5 consoles.
Compared to the 7 year wait between the Jap and EU release dates for the NES, 4 months is nothing
Well isn’t that a mature, constructive and well thought out comment. I hope you feel proud for bringing that little nugget of wisdom to the discussion.
Anyway, this sure is yet another thing going wrong for Sony but I seriously doubt it’s going to have any real effect overall, or atleast not nearly as much as other negative press they have received the last months.
Besides, when did a simultaneous worldwide launch become the norm anyway as to think it’s such a big hit if it doesn’t happen? Microsoft didn’t really pull it off either since there were console shortages for months after their supposed launch. And they barely sold anything in Japan anyway.
I’m sick of all the lies and bullsh8t PR. The endless bullsh8t FMV clips, the promise of High Def not starting till the PS3 ships yet all games run in 720P (just like 360), the promise of dual 1080P displays’s with games running @ 120, the promise of just a few weeks back 4 million PS3 shipping (mind you SONY said it was shipping the PS3 in May ), treating Pal users with utter contempt again
So sorry for enjoying SONY messing up and the likes of Phil and Ken eating thier worlds.
You’re talking though as though bullshit PR are something exclusive to Sony - it isn’t.
Sony treating PAL gamers with utter contempt? We’ve never had it so good! You do remember gaming in the early 90’s don’t you? You do remember paying ?60 for Secret of Mana, several magazine campaigns and over a year late?
[quote=“Kimimi”]You’re talking though as though bullshit PR are something exclusive to Sony - it isn’t.
Sony treating PAL gamers with utter contempt? We’ve never had it so good! You do remember gaming in the early 90’s don’t you? You do remember paying ?60 for Secret of Mana, several magazine campaigns and over a year late?[/quote]
Oh I’m no fan of the bullsh8t that comes out of Moore mouth believe you me, but nobody does it quite like SONY . Also you’re having a laugh SONY have been rubbish for Pal users since the PS days
Late on the game for 60 Hz options , Sony games that take months to come out over here, while most M$ games ship 2 weeks latter in Pal with every game having 60 Hz support, Pal FF 11 fans left inthe dark . PSP and now PS3 shipping months after the USA and Japan roll outs.
Yeah sure we’ve neever had it so good * Rolls Eye’s* . Both Ninteno Europe and Sony Europe treat Pal users with utter contempt, while M$ have been leading the game when it comes to supporting Pal users
