Was the Heresy Program really so unique?

OK, so at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga we found out that the dragon had always been empowered and guided by this black entity that originated in the Sestren data network, which we’ve since dubbed the Heresy Program:


Now I’ve always assumed that because it was guided by this program-entity, the Heresy Dragon must have been unique, because I’d also assumed that “normal” Ancient Age dragons (such as the Dark Dragon, the Guardian Dragon and Atolm) were just really advanced pure-type monsters who weren’t guided by such things.

But maybe the Heresy Dragon’s true nature is much more straightforward? Perhaps we’re meant to look at things the other way around, and assume that this dragon is a normal dragon - just one that had turned against Sestren - and therefore that all dragons were guided by similar program-entities. After all, we do glimpse that other golden program in PDS too:


… and as Geoff has pointed out in the past, the FMVs might actually be implying that this golden program entered into and guided PD1’s Dark Dragon.

So would this overall theory make sense? What would suggest that it was true, and what would suggest that it wasn’t? What do you guys think?

Special? Ofcourse he’s special, do you think that the Heresy Program would or even could create just any random dragon? Or that it would create a certain Dragon that it was designed to create? Imo the Program basically IS the Dragon we see in a way and by entering Lagi’s body turned Lagi into that specific Dragon, THE Dragon, Dragon of the legends as Lundi calls him and as everyone recognises him as that…
Also he seems to be the only Dragon that can destroy/shut down/whatever Towers…
So, imo, the Program was at some going to create that Dragon anyway because it was designed for it, for atleast one part of it’s original purpose. I see no other explanation for it being able to create the Dragon at all, we see every Ancient creation has a specific purpose and is equipped only enough for that purpose alone. They can alter that purpose like Azel did BUT as Abadd demonstrates they don’t have the power to do radically different things so if they decide to do something radically different they have to go about it with other means like Abadd tries to use Orta…

Are those not enough to make the Dragon Lagi has become special :slight_smile:

Don’t know about the Gold entity entering the Dark Dragon though, maybe that entity just remained in Sestren and sent an already created dragon to stop the newly created Dragon’s threat… I don’t think the Dark Dragon would need an entity like that anyway, he was a fully grown Dragon while the Program had to create a dragon from scratch making use of the coolia Lagi cos it had no physical body by itself…

Sorry for the misleading title, as obviously Lagi was a special case in most departments; my real question was the point I raised in the post itself: Have we been looking at the Heresy Dragon in the wrong light? Was it originally designed to be another “normal” dragon, and were “normal” dragons something greater than we’ve been giving then credit for? Were all dragons composed of a dragon-program that entered into or manifested itself in a physical form?

(Although you’ve pretty much answered those questions too, Al3x, I just wanted to clarify for everyone else. I’ve changed the topic title to something less confusing too, as it’s the Heresy Program - in fact, dragons and programs in general - that I was trying to bring in speculation about, rather than Lagi specifically.)

A thought though: what makes you think that Lagi was the only dragon that could destroy the Towers, rather than the only dragon inclined to destroy the Towers?

Since we don’t know the Heresy Dragon’s original purpose it’s impossible to know whether or not he’s special. Lundi said he was the only dragon that existed to destroy the Towers. We simply can’t know if the Ancients (the creators of the Towers) had programmed him to be able to do this. However, it’s not unreasonable to think that the Ancients had no place for the Towers in their new world.

Well D-Unit pretty much answered your question Lance. And to add to it that I also think that again cos of the specialization we see in Ancient creations. They don’t seem to be able to really go out of their way in the skills they have, only use them in ways other than the intended. So it’s only safe to assume that the Heresy Program wasn’t really able to add so radically new skills to Lagi out of nowhere… (For example to become the Light Wing he needed the D-Units, if he was able to do something as radical as add a Tower killing power to Lagi he would also maybe have no need for D-Units and just created the uber dragon form by himself… (Which he did I suppose with the Blue Dragon, but, you know what I mean…)

What occured to me is that this might be exactly what the Heresy Program did. Think of Azel, for example; she was created to be exactly what she was - a Drone that could interface with a Tower - she simply wasn’t intended to use her skills in the way that she eventually decided to. She wasn’t supposed to transport the dragon to Sestren or to destroy the Tower of Uru, but that’s what she ultimately did under her own motivation.

If the Heresy Program suddenly became an “impurity” in Sestren’s eyes becuase it actually did start thinking for itself and it decided that it wanted to turn against the Towers, that would give us some interesting possibilities. Ultimately it would mean that the Heresy Program was in a similar situation to Azel, though; it would still be exactly what the Ancients had created it to be, it would just be using its original skills and abilities in a different way.

The next big question in that line of thought would be: what did the Program’s creators intend it to use those powers for? That’s what I was thinking about in this topic (and my other recent one, too).

Lance, my point was that the Dragon would always have the Tower Killing skill… It wasn’t something added in the light of his new “duty”.

Azel was always meant to be able to control the Tower. She controlled it for different reasons than they wanted her to but ultimately she didn’t use a NEW skill, she used the skills she already had for a different purpose.

A Tower “Killing” skill like the Dragon has cannot have any other purpose other than… “Kill” Towers… This is another reason I insist on the old theory you don’t find so propable anymore…

But why are you so convinced of that? What makes the dragon’s ability to manually destroy a Tower special compared to any other ability that creates a really massive explosion of energy? Why couldn’t this ability have had other intended uses by its ancient designers, such as annihilating anything horrendously threatening which opposed the Towers or Sestren, or which threatened the balance of their programme?

It’s been like 3 years since I last played Saga.I need to rewatch that scene agehn.

After so much time posting in diewelt/twota my mind is beeing heavily influenced by some people’s opnions.

Where exactly are the words “Heresy Program” mentioned in PDS??

Well, they never are Gehn; that’s just what we’ve come to call it. (Unless that was a rhetorical question?)

As stupid as you may find it it was not.At this point I’m getting a little confused.

That’s just it!I always assumed that specific program had a duty that went agehnst TWOTA.

He became heretic only when he entered the coolia.

The program was never mad to be heretic.
These are my conclusions.

Remember that Sestren already kicked the program out of Sestren before it entered the Coolia.

If it did kick it out it still proves my point.You needn’t a gate.To some extent it’s sorta magical…

I think that’s the other topic, Gehn; but there’s one fairly important point that you might be forgetting. Azel warned Edge that the Sestren AI would be able to escape through the data transformation gateway in the Tower of Uru if they kept it open too long, which is why she had to destroy the Tower immediately afterwards. That literally shows that things can’t just jump out of the network in a physical form anywhere in the world; they need the gateway.


But why are you so convinced of that? What makes the dragon’s ability to manually destroy a Tower special compared to any other ability that creates a really massive explosion of energy? Why couldn’t this ability have had other intended uses by its ancient designers, such as annihilating anything horrendously threatening which opposed the Towers or Sestren, or which threatened the balance of their programme?[/quote]

Cos nothing that powerful ever existed? And Lagi never used that skill even when struggling so hard with Atolm or other powerful enemies? It seems that skill’s only purpose was to destroy the Towers. And we don’t know if it actually causes an explosion or if it causes the Towers to explode. To me it seems it’s the latter as we just see his horn glow in PD1 and then the Tower explodes… And then something similar happens in PDZ with Shellcoof… We don’t have any indication that the dragon actually creates an explosion, do we?

And yeah, I replied the same exact thing as you in the other thread that the gate discussion is going on… lol

Yeah, I noticed that :smiley:

But on the other hand, we don’t really have any indication that the dragon doesn’t cause an explosion. When you think about it, all of the dragon’s offensive moves are based around lasers and explosions; it does seem like a pretty realistic possibility. And considering that each time the dragon used that “technique” it physically exhausted itself for several decades, it would seem to make sense that it wouldn’t use it for anything else whatsoever except the ultimate completion of its goals.

Give a good reason why Lagi uses a different body in Saga then Al3x.

But he was in danger of not completing them before… The Atolm encounter was quite dangerous for example… And his other powers are like that cos he’s still a dragon like the rest… What’s a dragon without attacks? A flying good for nothin lizard :stuck_out_tongue:
His original goal was importand, he had to be able to defend himself against anything…

A different body? Are you saying the dragon we ride in Saga is not Lagi?

And even if so (which ISN’T the case but ANYWAY) why would he need a different body in Saga but not a different body inbetween PDZ and PD1? He did the same action…

Really? I can get an Excellent grade against Atolm every time. :stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously though, I think the kind of thing you’ve said yourself in the past (at least I think it was you) about storyline and gameplay often not quite linking up would probably apply if this was the case. Quite simply, it would be “dumb” (although quite gratifying) if you could make the dragon perform some kind of kamikaze death-berserk nuclear explosion attack at will, considering that it tends to put the dragon out of business for several years afterwards, which would probably amount to “game over”.