I always interpreted Sestren’s hunt for what it labelled an impurity as some type of purging process of a virus from its system.
The thing is, when I say “Heresy Dragon” I mean the program that downloaded itself into Lagi, not the Impurity. Like Geoffrey, I believe the Heresy Dragon originated from the Impurity which inhabited Sestren. Both Shelcoof and the Dark Dragon had the chance to destroy Lagi, but didn’t do so. However, Sestren states in the 5th memory orb “Impurity reacquired. Eliminate it once more.” indicating it had already destroyed it once, so it couldn’t be the Heresy Dragon. At that point, it must have been the Sky Rider that Sestren wanted to destroy, but I have to give my theory more thought before I write an explanation to this.
I don’t quite understand what you mean here, but - to make things clear - I am using the term “impurity” to describe what Sestren was using it to describe. That is, the entity that first appeared as a black dragon symbol within the Sestren system, which was then ejected into the physical world as energy, and ended up inside Lagi; at which point Sestren decided to pursue it with Shellcoof. In PD1 - same body or not - Sestren activated the Tower and Dark Dragon to try to destroy this entity, which was inside the Blue Dragon at the time. We finally see the entity in the ending of Saga, again as the black dragon symbol which had “inherited” the Sestren system. Then, retrospectively, we see it again in Orta, in the memory orb in Episode 7.
That is the entity I am discussing when I talk about the Impurity - I know that Sestren doesn’t use the word as a proper noun, but I find it fitting because it unambiguously refers to that entity, wheras what Lundi means by “Heresy Dragon” is debatable. I hope that clears things up.
My whole point is that, given the amount of problems with the “one body” theory, this seems like a valid alternative, even if the fine details of my theory may need some work.
Besides, we do know that the Impurity could depart a physical body and enter into a new one; you’re forgetting that it does just that right at the beginning of the series, when it enters into all those different Coolias.
The Impurity had to enter into the body of more than one Coolia before it was able to successfully enter the world as Lagi. Surely I don’t need to remind you of how the Impurity entered more than once into an unborn Coolia, began the growth process (starting with the glowing Bioluminary Oscillator in the throat) that would eventually turn it into a dragon, and then was born, only to have its host killed by Lundi’s fellow villagers and their superstitious beliefs?
Only when Lundi saved a Coolia that carried the Impurity - Lagi - was it able to reach full maturity. This whole episode clearly shows that the Impurity was capable of entering into multiple creatures, and of switching to another when one dies.
Perhaps that part can, but how would you interpret the more literal part about the previous body being “discarded”? The whole theory revolves around this idea that it is the same body, but if it abandoned that body, then - as I am trying to point out - the theory runs into a major problem.
Well, with the fact that he says the body was “discarded” elsewhere, doesn’t it seem more probable that he simply means that it’s dead? Dead things are stone cold too, Geoffrey… 
Again, my whole point is that we do not “know beyond all doubt”, as I’ve particularly explained above.
I’m not really questioning this. The dragon from the end of Saga and the Impurity were certainly “two parts of the same whole”, as they certainly co-existed in some kind of symbiotic relationship, prior to their separation, anyway. My point is that, for all the reasons I’ve been bringing up, I don’t think that Edge’s Dragon could be Lagi.
Hmm, I’m afraid I disagree with this; the Coolia pup from Zwei and the dragon from Orta don’t seem to be the same colour at all. I’ve just checked Zwei’s introduction to make sure, and the pup is a kind of pale grey-blue colour, whilst the Orta dragon is a very vivid green.
I’m quite sure that what Sestren describes as the “Impurity” is the entity that downloads itself into Lagi; the thing that was represented by the black dragon symbol within the System; as I’ve explained above. I have no idea how things could make sense if this wasn’t so.
As the Impurity goes on to survive until the end of Saga, it’s clear that Sestren cannot be talking about literal destruction when it uses the term “eliminate” - it would be contradicting itself within the same few lines of text, otherwise.
This was another reason why I believed Lundi’s description of Lagi’s death at the end of Zwei; this is when Sestren indicates that the Impurity has been “eliminated”. He only “reacquires” the Impurity when it resurfaces in the Blue Dragon of PD1.
If Sestren meant that Lagi - the physical creature - was destroyed, thus “eliminating” the threat the Impurity posed, and if the reason for it loosing track of the Impurity in the intervening time was that it was free-floating energy without a physical form, it would certainly make sense regarding the ideas I’ve put forward.
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/extra_images/lagi_01.jpg
http://www.panzerdragoon.net/extra_images/lagi_02.jpg
Although Lagi in Panzer Dragoon Orta seems like an ageing husk with skin as hard as rock and equally rough, his skin does indeed bear a close resemblence to that of the coolia he once was.
When the Heresy dragon occupied Lagi it took a whole year for him to grow into a dragon. Finding a new host in this manner wouldn’t be beneficial in the long run, as the chances of survival aren’t good. The Heresy dragon wouldn’t need to discard its body, not to mention the evolutionary path Lagi took in Panzer Dragoon Zwei led to him becoming the armoured blue dragon we see not long after Zwei in Panzer Dragoon. Why go to all the trouble of evolving a creature into a force to be reckoned with only to discard it in favour of starting all over again? The ancients could turn matter into energy and back again for the purpose of transportation but am I wrong in assuming dragon crests aren’t home to fully grown pre-made dragons? If anything, the Heresy dragon would’ve stored Lagi in the crest if such a thing were possible. As we know, the body was “discarded”. I think we’ve been subjected to a few translation errors or Lundi himself couldn’t be absolutely certain of what to expect in the years to come. In the Panzer Dragoon Zwei primary endings we do, after all, see Lagi resting within a huge crest inside Shelcoof – one in a different location to where we find the crest containing the baby dragon in Panzer Dragoon Saga.
As for the term “impurity”, like I said no one knows exactly what it is or was. To answer any questions related to it we’d need to understand the nature of the Heresy dragon itself. Was it a virus and thus appropriately deemed an impurity? Sure, that’s one possibility, but what if Sestren was always meant to create the dragon? A certain someone who occasionally posts here mentioned this and so we’ve been forced to re-think everything.
[quote=“Lance”]This was another reason why I believed Lundi’s description of Lagi’s death at the end of Zwei; this is when Sestren indicates that the Impurity has been “eliminated”. He only “reacquires” the Impurity when it resurfaces in the Blue Dragon of PD1.
If Sestren meant that Lagi - the physical creature - was destroyed, thus “eliminating” the threat the Impurity posed, and if the reason for it loosing track of the Impurity in the intervening time was that it was free-floating energy without a physical form, it would certainly make sense regarding the ideas I’ve put forward.[/quote]
Shelcoof wipes out Elpis but doesn’t actually acknowledge Lagi. In fact, after laying waste to Elpis the ship flies away from Lagi and in the direction of the Uru Tower. Most of the Heresy dragon’s essence could’ve been hiding in the resident mutants of Elpis which Shelcoof proceeded to obliterate. On the other hand, the ship does unleash a plethora of minions on Lagi as it flies to its ultimate destination.
If you remember the whole quote, it actually stated that the body was “discarded” - died - because it was exhausted after destroying Shellcoof. Getting a new body would have been a necessity rather than a choice, given the fact that the Impurity was determined to wipe out the Tower network, even though Lagi was exhausted from the effort of destroying the first Tower.
This makes sense, and also ties in with the Seekers’ assertion that to destroy all of the Towers in that way would take an unfeasibly large amount of time.
No, you wouldn’t be wrong; this is just a tentative theory I’m suggesting, so there’s no need to be harsh. And if you check my initial reasoning, I did theorise that the Impurity saved a copy / version / essence of Lagi in the crest within Shellcoof - that would be what you find in Saga. Saving his actual body in the crest would be pointless, however, if it was in fact exhausted and dead.
I don’t think we literally see Lagi within the crest, but the glowing light does suggest that some part of him has been recorded inside it, as I’ve discussed above. If Lundi’s diary is to be belived, though, he must discover Lagi’s body after seeing the crest - otherwise we would have seen it in the preceeding sequence, correct? This seems to heavily suggest that the physical creature is dead, and not inside the crest.
I’m quite sure that it’s meant to be the same room. Admittedly it looks shoddier (and smaller) with Saga’s in-game graphics rather than an FMV sequence, but I can’t see Team Andromeda doing something so confusing (and coincidental) as putting two crest-chambers inside Shellcoof, which could only be visited in seperate games.
I’ve come up with similar theories, too - that it was a program, a sentient virus, or just a corrupted part of Sestren that had re-evaluated its task and decided to preserve humankind rather than eradicate it.
I guess we cannot know for sure, given the small amount of information we have, but how the Impurity came about doesn’t seem as relevant as what it seems to be - some facet or element of the actual Sestren AI that was not functioning as intended, went “rogue”, and eventually managed to destroy the AI and inherit control over the system, at which point it allowed itself - and the Towers - to be switched off. Those seem to be the “facts”, if they can even be called that - its true origins and methods of functioning, and whether or not it was truly sentient, is all shrouded in mystery.
Did I seem harsh? Sorry if I gave that impression; I never intended to be.
I know an official source confirmed that the dragon in each game was one in the same. When asked if the dragon in Panzer Dragoon Orta was the same dragon as the one in the Saturn trilogy they said something along the lines of, yes, but that the dragon in Panzer Dragoon Orta and the gold dragon seen at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga were different, yet two parts of the same whole. Lagi is also confirmed to be the narrator in the Japanese version of Panzer Dragoon Orta.
Just assume they are all the same dragon for a moment. How would you explain differences between the incarnations in each game?
How is making a copy possible though? Are we talking about an exact carbon copy of Lagi down to every last memory? I think being stored in a crest is far more feasible based on what we already know about the ancients. But of course, Lagi didn’t enter the crest in the form of energy to be re-assembled at a later date.
According to a friend of the community who has intimate knowledge of the games by virtue of his profession, Sestren was always meant to create the dragon. Now I could find this believable, but the how and the why of its undesired activation remains the true mystery. Something activated it or took control of it. I don’t believe ancient rebels could even build something as dangerous as the Heresy dragon for the express purpose of roaming free inside Sestren space. After all, they never built the Towers or the tunnels existing between time and space which linked them all together into a network. How would they access Sestren in the first place?
A series of games sparking so many questions and providing so few answers is refreshing to say the least.
Fair enough
The thing is - from what you and Solo have said - this sounds suspiciously like an answer to the specific question: “Is the dragon in Orta meant to be the same dragon continuing on from the Saturn trilogy?”
The answer to this would be, as we both agree, “yes”. However, was the person answering the question truly also stating that the Zwei dragon was also the PD1 dragon, and the PD1 dragon was the Saga dragon, within this statement? And even if that was the intent of the question, the answer sounds like just a simple answer to that “is the dragon still alive in Orta?” question that I’m sure confused many of us at first.
I guess it’ll be hard to come to conclusions without a transcription of the interview. If anyone here knows where it can be found, a link would be hugely appreciated.
I wasn’t aware of that, but I can definitely accept it; the idea of a nonpersonal, omnipotent narrator always seemed like a bit of a cop-out to me, to be honest.
But, erm, how can he narrate the bit after he’s dead? The bit about the “birth” of the baby dragon, I mean. Or is it just meant to be his voice narrating?
You mean if I was arguing for the “one dragon” theory? I’m not sure; the fact that I honestly can’t find another good reason for the dragon’s complete metamorphosis - apparently for the worse - at the beginning of Saga is one of the reasons that I’m doubting the theory. I’ll definitely have a think about it, though, and post when I’ve got something convincing.
To be honest, this idea of mine is exactly the kind of “What if! What if! What if!” reasoning that I’m trying to avoid, but I’ll try to explain more clearly.
My big point is that neither theory can easily accomodate the dragon pup that comes out of the Dragon Crest in Shelcoof. Though it is clearly some kind of incarnation of Lagi, one theory states that he is alive but elsewhere at the time, and the other states that he is dead. It’s a bit of a stumper.
The most plausible thing I could come up with was that it was either his “essence” - maybe his spirit, preserved within the crest and granted that new, baby dragon body - or a copy of him, designed as more of a caricature than a literal duplicate.
Assuming for a second that the Impurity can operate the crests at all, and that they can indeed store the body of a physical creature as data, I was thinking along the lines of the Impurity salvaging Lagi’s (the Coolia’s) consciousness and putting it in the crest, where it somehow arranged for a new body to be gestated.
Either that, or - being an entity made of data - the Impurity just entered into the crest and rearranged all the zeros and ones in its memory (or whatever the Ancient equivalent would be) until a data-copy of Lagi was arrived at. So that, if the crest was activated, the Lagi copy would come out, despite not literally “going in” there in the first place.
Think about the way you can create, say, a document in Microsoft Word and print it off out of your computer - it was never “put in” there in the first place, but was rather created in there. I’m thinking along those lines, but taken to hideously complex extremes.
As I said, however, this copy-idea is strictly a theory - just something vaguely plausible that just about explains why Lagi can be in two places at once (or dead and alive in different places) - and I very much doubt that Team Andromeda had this specific notion on their minds. What they did have on their minds is utterly beyond me…
But why didn’t the Dark Dragon destroy Lagi when he had the chance instead of heading for the Tower then? Maybe because it had already accomplished part of its mission: the Impurity was destroyed. I can’t imagine the Dark Dragon flying away after shooting down the Sky Rider because he wasn’t strong enough to defeat Lagi. At that point, Lagi was much weaker because the Sky Rider was injured. I seriously doubt he could have defended himself from the Dark Dragon. In my opinion, it was Kyle that made Lagi stronger than the Dark Dragon.
About Lundi’s diary:
*“Exhausting all his power, he discarded his body, and entered a deep sleep. I assume he has now re-emerged with a new body, and chosen you as his rider.”
“The dragon you ride has inherited the soul of my old friend.”*
I think there’s a chance that Lundi was wrong about the dragon’s future. He mentions somewhere that “Lagi’s final act sealed the life from the airship forever.”. However, Shelcoof was partially active again in Saga, probably because Lagi had left it. This means that Lundi didn’t expect Lagi to leave Shelcoof. What he had in mind though when he said Lagi would re-emerge, was probably the baby dragon. He must have thought that the Heresy Dragon would occupy the new dragon instead of Lagi.
I suppose it’s Lagi’s other half, the Heresy Dragon. It does seem to be the same voice.
A “friend of the community who has intimate knowledge of the games by virtue of his profession”? That sounds like a reasonably interesting acquaintance to have - who is this person, can I ask, and does he post here at all?
I too find it hard to believe that ancient rebels were responsible for the creation of the Impurity, but mainly because of the obvious point: why would rebels create a virus to shut the network down, and then design it to go active only after ten thousand years?
Could the dragon have been a fail-safe system, perhaps? The Ancients might have predicted that, if the Towers had not completed their task after ten thousand years, it must mean that something was malfunctioning, and that a swift shut-down of the network would be appropriate. Or something along those lines.
In fact - even more fitting - what if the Impurity was actually the backup Sestren AI? As in, the standby designed to step in if the original ever started going astray? I’ve often thought that the Sestren AI must have been behaving at least a bit differently to how the Ancients intended. If the Impurity was literally another Sestren, it would explain both why it looked the same in Sestren space - i.e. a black dragon symbol compared to the true AI’s gold dragon symbol - and why it was able to “inherit” control of the system at all.
Hmm, I still don’t see how the Impurity could be anything other than the entity represented by the black dragon symbol. Really, in the memory orbs in Saga, that being (that enters into Lagi) is the only thing that Sestren could possibly be referring to as “the Impurity”; and as it is still alive at the end of Saga - after emerging from the dragon - it clearly wasn’t destroyed.
I doubt the Dark Dragon was making a very educated descision, whatever it was doing; but it seemed absolutely determined - presumably by programming - to return to the Tower. If this was its primary objective, then everything else would become less important, and it would only have attacked the Sky Rider to temporairly disble the dragon while it headed for the Tower. After reaching the Tower, well, presumably then it would have turned its full attention to destroying the Blue Dragon.
I agree that we can’t be 100% sure of Lundi’s correctness, but personally I think he’s got the right ideas. By the way, have you noticed that the contemporary Dragon Books - as opposed to the retrospective Old Diary, written much later - seem a lot vaguer than that later work? Regarding the whole ending thing, anyway. He’s still calling the dragon and Impurity “Lagi” at that stage, for example, rather than defining the Impurity as a seperate “soul”, as he later does. I guess that could be due to it being a relatively traumatic exerience, and him having had more time to consolidate and come to terms with his new-found knowledge by the time of the Old Diary.
[quote=“Lance”]
A “friend of the community who has intimate knowledge of the games by virtue of his profession”? That sounds like a reasonably interesting acquaintance to have - who is this person, can I ask, and does he post here at all?[/quote]
Abadd posts here occasionally but he joined the old forums using the name Abadd long before the Japanese version of Panzer Dragoon Orta was even released. He’s very smart, though I recommend you judge his personality for yourself. Why does he have to be so damn cryptic all the time?
[quote=“Lance”]
I too find it hard to believe that ancient rebels were responsible for the creation of the Impurity, but mainly because of the obvious point: why would rebels create a virus to shut the network down, and then design it to go active only after ten thousand years?
Could the dragon have been a fail-safe system, perhaps? The Ancients might have predicted that, if the Towers had not completed their task after ten thousand years, it must mean that something was malfunctioning, and that a swift shut-down of the network would be appropriate. Or something along those lines.
In fact - even more fitting - what if the Impurity was actually the backup Sestren AI? As in, the standby designed to step in if the original ever started going astray? I’ve often thought that the Sestren AI must have been behaving at least a bit differently to how the Ancients intended. If the Impurity was literally another Sestren, it would explain both why it looked the same in Sestren space - i.e. a black dragon symbol compared to the true AI’s gold dragon symbol - and why it was able to “inherit” control of the system at all.[/quote]
One theory is that the Heresy dragon was meant to be activated after 10 000 years when the terraforming ruins we call the Towers should’ve had more than a sufficient amount of time to cleanse and rejuvenate the entire planet. Because Sestren’s original task hadn’t been accomplished yet due to circumstances beyond its control, it would simply shut down the Heresy dragon the moment it was activated/created. Something forced the Heresy dragon AI to disobey Sestren which inevitably led to a power struggle. Whatever that something was, is debatable. A virus is my best guess.
When it comes to this i dont have any idea how you people can type so much! This is practicaly an grade 10 Essay on one topic!
You should see the essays I write for Uni in real life…
Anyway, to get back to my original point; I’ve given this whole thing some more thought, and I honestly don’t believe that my whole “download a dragon out of a dragon crest” idea can be true. It’s just too convoluted. I’ve revised my whole alternate theory - which now makes a heck of a lot more sense - and I’ll post it below.
One point first, though, regarding what came up earlier: PD Orta’s Pandora’s Box confirms that “Blue Dragon” and “Solo Wing” are just two names for the same thing. I stand by my opinion that the Solo Wing in Saga is just the Blue Dragon form with morphing capabilities, which it simply never had before.
This also supports my idea that this part of Pandora’s Box is not written from an Imperial perspective, but from an omnipotent one - as only the player ever knew that that form was called the Solo Wing. And it therefore backs up my idea that its identification of the different dragons - as three seperate entities - is accurate.
[quote=“Lance”]One point first, though, regarding what came up earlier: PD Orta’s Pandora’s Box confirms that “Blue Dragon” and “Solo Wing” are just two names for the same thing. I stand by my opinion that the Solo Wing in Saga is just the Blue Dragon form with morphing capabilities, which it simply never had before.
This also supports my idea that this part of Pandora’s Box is not written from an Imperial perspective, but from an omnipotent one - as only the player ever knew that that form was called the Solo Wing. And it therefore backs up my idea that its identification of the different dragons - as three seperate entities - is accurate.[/quote]
I still get the impression that this part was indeed written from the Empire’s perspective, and for the following reasons (these quotes were taken from the parts about the dragon of Pandora’s Box):
*“During the rule of the 7th Emperor, the Blue Dragon invaded the Imperial Capital…” *
“…30 years after the Blue Dragon’s assault on the Imperial Capital.”
Lagi’s goal was not to invade the Empire, yet the writer seems to think it was.
“Reports from Imperial units stationed in the outlands…”
I would surprise me if anyone other than the Empire could have had access to these reports. This indicates that this part was indeed written from the Empire’s perspective, and that’s why they speak of 3 different dragons. They didn’t notice the difference between the Solowing and the Blue Dragon either.
After checking through the information in the Box again, I am now even more convinced that it is not in fact written by the Empire. I’ll explain why:
1) The Empire is always discussed in the third person.
The narrator never actually identifies itself as being Imperial. On the contrary, it always refers to the Empire in the third-person, as if it were merely describing it. For example:
“Even though the humans have found strength in numbers and have banded together to form an Empire…”
[quote=“D-Unit”]“Reports from Imperial units stationed in the outlands…”
I would surprise me if anyone other than the Empire could have had access to these reports.[/quote]
I didn’t mean to imply that some other entity had written these pages. What I am suggesting is that an omnipotent narrator wrote these accounts. For anyone unfamiliar with the term, it refers to the voice in a third-person narrative - say, a novel - that simply describes events without actually belonging to anyone in particular. I have no doubt that the narrator in this case often focuses on the Empire. In a novel, though, the third-person narrator would focus on the protagonists in exactly this way, following their train of thought without revealing much information that was totally unknown to them.
Given the tone of other (confirmed) pieces of Imperial literature - such as the book you start with in Saga, which is incredibly full of bias and propaganda - the tone here sounds far too neutral to be Imperial. Observe the following sections: The article on Wormriders, which is extremely neutral given that the Empire apparently sees them as “disgusting savages”. The account of the Meccania Federation, compared to previous accounts of “Meccanian scum” from Saga. The account of the Li Vis invasion; if this was Imperial text, surely they would at least try and make their takeover sound fair and just? Instead it is just cold and neutral. Also, the lines: “Unfortunately after many attacks by these creatures, [Yelico Valley] was abandoned, and forgotten.” Why would the self-obsessed Empire think that there was anything “unfortunate” about it?
The only real propaganda part is the bit about the Emperor from the time of Saga sacrificficing “his own life” in a noble way, but as this is clearly introduced as being quoted from Imperial records, this is fair enough. This propaganda tone again is reminiscent of known Imperial works, but it contrasts with the rest of the box information, which is neutral.
[quote=“D-Unit”]I still get the impression that this part was indeed written from the Empire’s perspective, and for the following reasons (these quotes were taken from the parts about the dragon of Pandora’s Box):
*“During the rule of the 7th Emperor, the Blue Dragon invaded the Imperial Capital…” *
“…30 years after the Blue Dragon’s assault on the Imperial Capital.”
Lagi’s goal was not to invade the Empire, yet the writer seems to think it was.[/quote]
By either of our theories, this must be accepted as colourful language. We know from Saga’s Tower Report 1 that even the Empire knew that this was not so, and that the Capital fell as a by-product of the battle betwen the dragons.
2) The narrator knows some things that the Empire clearly could not.
You may be missing my point here - how could the Empire know that the dragon was even meant to be called the Solo Wing? This is just an official name given to that form by the game’s creators, and it is never suggested that any in-game characters know it as that. The only form name that is mentioned in-game is the Light Wing, but that of course has a story behind it.
Similarly, the narrator has a very good knowledge of both Lundi and Kyle, though as many sources (such as the Dragon Report) confirm, the Empire never had any idea of the riders’ identities (prior to Edge).
3) Why would Smilebit want to totally confuse new fans?
Even if the above evidence is totally ignored, the burning question still remains - why would Smilebit purposefully put so much “false” information into a part of the game that is meant to expand the player’s knowledge?
It would make no sense, as it would not be mysterious or interesting at all. Players new to the game would have no way of realising that the Empire is “wrong” about these things, in the way that Saga players were confronted early on with the fact that the Empire’s documents were full of propoganda.
All things in the Box that are meant to be Imperial conjecture are clearly labelled as such. On the other hand, these statements I am discussing - regarding the seperateness of the dragons, and of the names “Blue Dragon” and “Solo Wing” being synonymous - are presented as fact. I see few reasons why they should not be, given that Smilebit are trying to educate us here.