Theory about the Dragon Crests - please post your opinions!

Panzer Dragoon
1

OK, this is the theory I promised as a response to legaiaflame?s ?finding the baby dragon inside Shellcoof? question, but this theory is a bit, erm, chunky so I thought I?d start a new thread.

I?ve had more free time than I thought I would today, and this explanation has ended up being pretty detailed, so please, grab a cup of hot coffee / tea / Dr. Pepper / whatever you prefer, some cake (as cake is always good,) and enjoy - then post your opinions. I?ll post the whole thing in sections so it?s easier to read.

(Oh, and please forgive this theory if it seems a bit argumentative in places; I know I’m going against the most commonly held ideas here, but I think the evidence I’m using to back up my ideas is reasonably good. I hope so, anyway!)

2

REASONS WHY I?VE SOUGHT AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE “HIBERNATION” THEORY:

1) LUNDI’S DIARIES

The most indisputable evidence that I can find is the information from Lundi’s diaries in Panzer Dragoon Saga. Basically, they emphatically state that Lagi’s body dies at the end of Zwei. They offer instead the idea that it is his spirit, the Impurity from Sestren - or the “Heresy Dragon”, as it is popularly known - that lives on. The following quotes, from the “Old Diary”, seem to best confirm this:

“Exhausting all his power, he discarded his body, and entered a deep sleep. I assume he has now re-emerged with a new body, and chosen you as his rider.”

“The dragon you ride has inherited the soul of my old friend.”

In the first quote, Lundi makes a clear distinction between the spirit - the “he” that enters the deep sleep - and the body, which is discarded (i.e. dies). It also states that the dragon will have “re-emerged with a new body”, which further opposes the whole theory of Lagi’s original body being renewed or rejuvenated.

In the second quote, Lundi again makes the distinction that Edge’s dragon is not Lagi, but that it is guided by that same “soul” - the Impurity - that once inhabited its predecessor. Given that Lundi has by this time experienced the enlightening and prophetic visions of the Zwei ending sequence - and has, as he says, a good understanding of the dragon’s nature and purpose - there is no reason to assume that what he says is wrong.

2) LAGI EMERGING FROM THE CREST… TWICE?

The theory states that Lagi is meant to be hibernating inside the Dragon Crest that we see within Shellcoof at the end of Zwei, and that he emerges out of it - still in the Blue Dragon form - prior to PD1. However, the theory doesn’t really have any way to explain his emergence from that crest “again” in Panzer Dragoon Saga, when the dragon pup that is clearly some version of Lagi comes out of the crest in Shellcoof.

3) THE DRAGON “REGRESSES” BETWEEN PD1 AND SAGA?

The theory seems to assume that the dragon in Zwei must be the same physical dragon that appears in PD1 because Lagi ends Zwei in that physical from - the Blue Dragon. However, if Lagi’s hibernation allows him to retain his form between those games, why does he change into the strange and unrelated Basic Wing that we see at the beginning of Saga? This physical being is not so much a “regression”, as this could maybe be explained, but rather it is a completely different creature that has to take a different evolutionary route towards the Blue Dragon form. The hibernation theory has no real way to explain this.

4) INFORMATION IN PD ORTA’S PANDORA’S BOX

Though this is admittedly the least convincing evidence here, I nonetheless think that it’s a good reinforcement of the above. Information in Panzer Dragoon Orta’s Pandora’s Box clearly defines the three dragons - the Blue Dragon, Lagi, and Edge’s Dragon - as individual and separate entities. Though all sorts of arguments could be made regarding the validity of this information (or of the narrator), I see no reason why the game’s creators would want to mislead new fans regarding this plot element.

5) PHYSICAL HIBERNATION IS NEVER MENTIONED IN THE GAMES

Though there are other reasons that the whole Hibernation idea seems to have problems, I’ll just finish with the fact that hibernation is never mentioned anywhere in the games, but that the Impurity (or “Heresy Dragon”) definitely does enter into a host body - Lagi - just prior to Zwei. For this reason, I think that the idea of the Impurity entering into a new body more than once is more likely than physical hibernation, as it requires less “what if…” thinking, and relies on fewer unknown factors.

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ALTERNATIVE THEORY OF THE DRAGON CRESTS

The only time that we see a Dragon Crest literally do something in the series is when the crest in Shellcoof “ejects” (for want of a better word) the physical dragon pup in Saga. The pup is clearly, in some way, the original dragon Lagi, from Zwei; a being that is his essence, at any rate. As no other parties can really be brought in, it seems safe to assume that the Impurity / Heresy Dragon was responsible for that being getting inside the crest in the first place.

However, Lundi’s diaries clearly discuss Lagi’s physical death and the continuation of only the Impurity / Heresy Dragon after that game, so the idea that Lagi hibernated / rejuvenated himself within that crest doesn’t seem to work. A new theory follows:

As we know from Panzer Dragoon Orta, the Ancients were capable of transforming matter into pure data, and vice versa. As the pup came out of the crest, it seems likely that it was stored as data within the crest, and “downloaded” into the physical world in the same way that Orta leaves Sestren in PD Orta.

The Dragon Crests are obviously relics from the Ancient Age; they are in the recognisable Ancient style, and the three we get to see are all built into Ancient Age structures. Thus it doesn’t seem unreasonable to assume that their purpose and function in the Ancient Age was the same as it is now. Namely, I believe the point of a crest is to “store” a dragon, (or perhaps any living creature, but I’ll try not to sidetrack,) so that it can be downloaded into the physical world if and when necessary.

4

Sounds pretty interesting, and valid too.

I was never really sure how the dragon from those games could’ve all been the same anyways.

5

… AND FINALLY, AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY OF THE DRAGON’S CONTINUITY

As the Impurity / Heresy Dragon was some kind of offshoot of the Sestren AI, it presumably knew about the nature of these crests, as it seemed to know about many other things. Thus, what I conclude happened at the end of Zwei was that the Impurity decided to preserve some remnant of Lagi - the noble, good-natured beast that bore it - inside the Dragon Crest, when it became evident that the physical being was going to die. I will come back to this point in a moment, after introducing a more fitting example; the origins of Edge’s Dragon from Panzer Dragoon Saga.

Assuming that, for the reasons discussed above, Edge’s Dragon is not the same dragon from PD1, the obvious question of its origin arises. However, I think that the Dragon Crest on the bottom floor of the Excavation Site ruins is heavily implicated in all this.

If the purpose of a Dragon Crest was to store an actual dragon in the Ancient Age, it seems perfectly feasible that there could be Dragon Crests around the Continent with actual Ancient Age dragons inside them. If this was how dragons were stored, it would also explain the Empire’s sheer inability to find even a non-functional specimen in the present time.

If the Impurity / Heresy Dragon was left bodiless again after the events of PD1, is it so far fetched to assume that, being an energy-data offshoot of the Sestren AI, it would have the ability to activate a Dragon Crest in order to make it download its contents? If Edge’s Dragon was a standard Ancient Age dragon downloaded out of that Dragon Crest in the ruins, and taken over by the Impurity / Heresy Dragon, it would explain quite a few things. Of course, it gives a reason for why the dragon and crest are both coincidentally at the site; but it would also explain why the dragon looks so different in Saga, and why it has to start morphing - via a different evolutionary route - into the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing.

As is stated in the games, the dragon was the ultimate living weapon developed by the Ancients, and this was presumably well-known by the Impurity / Heresy Dragon when it was ejected from Sestren prior to Zwei. After all, why else would it choose to mutate a creature - Lagi the Coolia - into that specific form? The answer is of course, because to Sestren’s knowledge - and so to the Impurity?s knowledge - that was the most powerful physical form available. From the way the Impurity always seems to strive towards the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing form, I can only conclude that on top of the dragon being the most powerful creature designed by the Ancients, the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing was the most powerful dragon designed by the Ancients.

Anyway, to return to the theory, I believe that the Impurity stored some kind of data-copy of Lagi inside Shellcoof’s Dragon Crest in order to in some way preserve him, despite the actual Lagi dying, as Lundi states. This would explain why the dragon pup in Saga seems more like an essence, or a caricature of Lagi, rather than the real him.

Following that, there seems to be a lot of events missing between Zwei and PD1, by anybody’s reckoning. Lundi’s diary necessitates that the Impurity must have found another body in this time; maybe it mutated another Coolia, maybe it found another dragon in a Dragon Crest, or maybe it acquired one through some other means. What is clear is that by the time Kyle encounters the dragon for the first time, it has already had some kind of a journey; time enough to acquire and bond with a new rider, (our mysterious Sky Rider friend,) and time enough, it seems, to evolve whatever body it found into the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing form again.

At the end of PD1, when it presumably exhausts itself in destroying another Tower, it seems that the Impurity was separated from the dragon again, and eventually settled on the body stored in the Dragon Crest below Saga’s excavation site, as discussed above. In the course of Saga, the Impurity downloads the copy of Lagi stored in Shellcoof’s crest, and through that process at the Red Ruins merges with it, both helping it to re-attain the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing form and also letting Lagi live on as a part of the physical dragon.

6

OK, so I?m sorry that was a bit lengthy, but what do you guys think? Those of you that are still alive after attempting to read it all, anyway… :slight_smile:

7

Wow. Sounds good. The whole dragon-downloading-off-crest thing would sure explain a lot! :slight_smile:

8

You have some good arguments in your theory, but I think that it was the same dragon throughout all the games though (I think this was confirmed in an interview too but I?m not sure).

I don’t think it’s a different dragon because of what the Heresy Dragon says in PD Orta to Lagi: “Your body is fragile and mortal now?”. This basically means that before the Heresy Dragon left Lagi, he was immortal.

Maybe the Base Dragon is so different from the Blue Dragon because Lagi had to downgrade himself in order to evolve into a new form. When he reached D-Type 01 level, he reached his maximum level for which he was designed. He couldn’t evolve any further, which means he had to go back to a base level in order to evolve to the Light Wing, an evolution that the Ancients had not planned for him.

Pandora’s box makes a difference between the dragons because it was written from the Empire’s perspective. They couldn’t know that it was the same dragon.

9

Entering a deep sleep is akin to, if not the equivalent of, hibernating. Lundi merely assumes the dragon he knew would take to the skies again in a new body. Morphing into the armoured blue dragon at the end of Panzer Dragoon Zwei explains how and why Lagi reached the peak of his evolution by the time the events of Panzer Dragoon transpire.

10

Smilebit confirmed that the dragon ridden in all the games thus far was the same dragon: Lagi.

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Thanks for the feedback thus far, guys; I’ll address some points:

D-Unit:

Hmm, interesting point. I don’t think that it means Lagi was actually immortal before, however, as he could still presumably die. (And what are the diaries talking about if he didn’t die?) The focus of that enigmatic conversation just seemed to me to be that the dragon’s body was much weaker, now, and that he would eventually die in battle.

On an unrelated note, perhaps the Impurity / Heresy Dragon’s old prophetic visions have informed it of this? It seems very sure that the physical dragon will die, and as it knew that, for example, the Sky Rider would die - even at the time of Zwei - this seems like quite a plausible explanation.

As I said, that information is not particulalry convincing - but still, why would Smilebit want to confuse players, given that most of the other information in the Box is correct (except where it blatantly has an Imperial bias)? Also, as far as I can tell, that section of the box is not definitely written by the Empire, but rather it could be any omnipotent narrator. The lack of any information backing up the hibernation theory in Pandora’s Box is also suspicious to me, given how central the idea would have to be if it were true.

Geoffrey:

Agreed, but Lundi is not talking about the body hibernating, he is talking about the spirit - the Impurity, which neither of us are disputing - resting in some way. Consider the statement again, looking at the emphasis and meaning of “he”:

*“Exhausting all his power, he discarded his body, and entered a deep sleep. I assume he has now re-emerged with a new body, and chosen you as his rider.” *

The “he” is definitely not the composite dragon; it is just the spirit, as Lundi is clear about it loosing its original body. That body was Lagi, in the same way that the dragon you ride in PD Orta was the physical dragon from Saga, as we know the body to be separate from the Impurity, even if it was guided by it.

Now I guessed something like this must be so, to explain the origins of the idea. However, are you 100% sure that they were talking about the physical dragon surviving through all the games? The distinction between the physical creature and the Impurity is quite a hardcore fan notion, if you know what I mean, and it would surprise me if Smilebit just casually mentioned it in a normal interview, considering that they were very vague on the whole thing in the game itself. Alternatively, are you sure that they weren’t just saying that the dragon you ride in PD Orta is the same one from the end of the Saturn trilogy, which I don’t think anyone is disputing?

Whatever may be the case, I would be extremely interested in reading whatever interview or quotation states this, so links to a transcript would be much appreciated.

Does anyone else have opinions, or feel that this theory falls down in any way?

12

Wow, this is a huge theory, it’s taken me some time to read through it all. Interestingly, this is almost exactly what I used to believe - before I had played Panzer Dragoon Orta. Curious why I thought this too, but no longer? Read on.

Certainly there are lots of gaps in any theory of this type, and assumptions need to be made. One of the main problems (this one actually annoys me greatly) is that certain details from the translations of the Saturn Panzer games may or may not be correct. However, considering Smilebit chose a plot device from the Saturn games (the Azel/Edge love plot) I think it is reasonable to give the Saturn English translations the benefit of the doubt.

The reason I’m saying this is because Lundi’s journals are VERY important when determining the truth about the dragon. However, this interview will Smilebit can not be ignored either. Unfortunately the interview was on the old panzerdragoon.de site, so unless Lord Craymen (the webmaster of that site) can dig it up, there is no link I can provide. One of the questions was something like “Is it the same dragon Lagi from the Saturn games, or an all new dragon?” The answer was one of riddles - “Sort of. They are the same, yet different parts of a whole”. If only the whole interview could be pasted here we could see their exact words.

One of the things that has convinced me that it is the same dragon is the scene where the two “dragons” are talking to one another in PDO. It certainly was the dragon from PDS’s body, and if that was so then why wouldn’t it be the same dragon in all four Panzer games? Why should one dragon be immortal (the PDS one) but not the others? (the PD and PDZ ones)

Why was the dragon born as a coolia in Zwei when it could have just appeared in another crest in a fully grown body? That seemed the reason for a prequel: to show the origins of the dragon and how it grew up.

This is a very interesting theory though, Lance. I can certainly see why you’d think that they were seperate bodies.

13

One thing I’d like to mention though: I don’t think the Heresy Dragon is the same thing as the Impurity that Sestren wants to destroy. If it was, then the Dark Dragon and its rider would have destroyed Lagi after they shot down the Skyrider. It was probably the Skyrider that was carrying the Impurity. I’m working on a theory about this, but that’s something for another thread.

About Lundi knowing about the existence of the Heresy program, I’d like to add this: The Heresy Dragon and Lagi’s spirit were one at that time, so Lundi couldn’t really tell the difference, even if he knew that the Heresy Dragon downloaded itself into Lagi. Lagi’s spirit was not just the Heresy Dragon, it was a combination of the two. So when Lundi says “he discarded his body”, he’s also talking about the coolia.

14

I fully, 100% agree that the dragon in Orta is the physical dragon from Saga. I really don’t believe that it was immortal, though; rather, it never had to exhaust itself by destroying a tower like its predecessors. This is, after all, the reason Lundi gives for Lagi’s death, and I’m theorising that the PD1 dragon would have exhausted itself as well, hence that change of dragon for Saga.

Well, that’s where my theory starts to stumble a bit, I guess. I could suggest that the Impurity had a limited lifespan outside of a physical body, and so had to just take the first thing it could get. Alternatively, perhaps it was disoriented from being ejected out of Sestren? Or maybe it was just temporarily weakened, and unable to travel far? Who knows?

And yes, all of these theories require assumptions and “what if” guesses. The sheer fact that the Panzer series gives us a chance to think for ourselves rather than spoon-feed us a plot is one of the things I like most about it… it’s certainly refreshing to have an interesting debate about a video game storyline :slight_smile:

15

As far as I’m aware, the whole point of the adventure in PD1 was that the Dark Dragon was trying to return to the Tower. Sestren intended it to get augmented with all that extra armour and weaponry in the last Episode, so that it could definitely annihilate the Blue Dragon. As Sestren’s memory orbs in Saga show, that is why the Tower and the Dark Dragon were activated; the same reason that Shellcoof and its guardian were before them.

As the end of Episode 2 shows, the Dark Dragon isn’t much of a match for the Blue Dragon before the enhancement. I believe that’s why the premise of the journey is “don’t let him return to the Tower…”

Well, regarding the separation of the Impurity from the physical dragon prior to PD Orta, a clear distinction is made between the physical dragon - whatever “spirit” it may have included - and the Impurity. I guess your theory could be right, but there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that Lagi the Coolia’s separate spirit was capable of leaving his body and carrying on with the Impurity.

Lundi only clearly identifies the Impurity - not Lagi’s separate consciousness - in his diaries. As Lundi states that the Impurity entrusted him “with the secret of his existence”, I don’t see why we should assume that Lundi was wrong or mistaken about its nature.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but the “Heresy Dragon” (or “Heresy Program”) is the widely accepted fan name for the Impurity, isn’t it? I’m sure they’re just two names for the same thing.

The only place that a “Heresy Dragon” is mentioned in the games is in the Old Diary. In that, Lundi uses it as his name for the Impurity - or, in a more general interpretation, the dragon containing the Impurity.

The dragon’s spirit, the Impurity, and the Heresy Dragon all refer to the same entity in my above theory at any rate, if anyone is confused.

16

The idea that the dragon “de-evolved” into a lesser form through choice rather than necessity is certainly interesting. Don’t forget, though, that the Light Wing in Saga is again a “lesser” form than the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing that the dragon already was in PD1. I still stand by my point that this whole concept of de-evolving only to re-evolve really doesn’t make sense, and that it’s not very well explained by the other theory.

17

Good point. But still, I believe Lundi was not just listening to the Heresy Dragon, since it didn’t exist separately at that time. One thing that should be noted though is what Lundi says about Lagi re-emerging: “I assume he has now re-emerged with a new body”. This indicates that he was not 100% sure. He knew what the dragon was capable of, but he didn’t know exactly what he had planned for the future.

The creators of the Light Wing called it the ultimate dragon, perhaps even superior to themselves, so something must have been very special about it. The Solo Wing could transform into different dragons too, which makes it different from the Blue Dragon form. Maybe Lagi couldn’t reach the Solowing level without reaching the Light Wing level first? Because he had to downgrade, he stored his D-Type 01 data in the baby dragon.

In my opinion, they are three different entities :slight_smile: The thing is, I’m currently reconsidering everything that is known about the events throughout the PD games. Was the Heresy Dragon really Sestren’s target or was it the Impurity Sestren was after, was Azel really that important or just another drone who was never fully completed, …

18

[quote=“Lance”]

Agreed, but Lundi is not talking about the body hibernating, he is talking about the spirit - the Impurity, which neither of us are disputing - resting in some way. Consider the statement again, looking at the emphasis and meaning of “he”:

"Exhausting all his power, he discarded his body, and entered a deep sleep. I assume he has now re-emerged with a new body, and chosen you as his rider."

The “he” is definitely not the composite dragon; it is just the spirit, as Lundi is clear about it loosing its original body. That body was Lagi, in the same way that the dragon you ride in PD Orta was the physical dragon from Saga, as we know the body to be separate from the Impurity, even if it was guided by it.[/quote]

There’s no reason to believe the Heresy dragon hijacked a whole multitude of bodies when we don’t know if the Heresy dragon could’ve even departed the body it originally inhabited.

We know the translation of Panzer Dragoon Saga was accurate, but we still don’t know how accurate, so that alone can cast doubt on how you interpret the passage above. Another way to intrepret the passage in question is to take into account the dragon’s morphing abilities. Lagi/the Heresy dragon could indeed return to the world in a “new body”.

Lundi also writes about how Lagi’s body was “stone cold”, which seems to suggest some kind of prolonged hibernation IMO. Now If we know beyond all doubt that the Heresy dragon couldn’t find another body, then the only real conclusion we can draw from this is that it used the same host body for the entirety of the host body’s lifespan up until the time Panzer Dragoon Orta is set.

Btw, we also don’t know what exactly the impurity is. Some believe it was the Heresy dragon itself, but I believe it was whatever activated the Heresy dragon – some type of virus that served to awaken it at the most inopportune time.

[quote=“Lance”]

Now I guessed something like this must be so, to explain the origins of the idea. However, are you 100% sure that they were talking about the physical dragon surviving through all the games? The distinction between the physical creature and the Impurity is quite a hardcore fan notion, if you know what I mean, and it would surprise me if Smilebit just casually mentioned it in a normal interview, considering that they were very vague on the whole thing in the game itself. Alternatively, are you sure that they weren’t just saying that the dragon you ride in PD Orta is the same one from the end of the Saturn trilogy, which I don’t think anyone is disputing?[/quote]

Lagi (the coolia) and the Heresy dragon (the gold dragon we see at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga) were meant to be two parts of the same whole. At least, according to Smilebit. When Lagi separated from the Heresy dragon, as many of us know, Lagi became mortal in every sense of the world. Notice how the coolia Lagi and the dragon Lagi in Panzer Dragoon Orta share the same rough green skin almost as if Smilebit wanted to remind us of the dragon’s humble beginnings.

19

You too have a good point; the word “assume” means a great deal. I guess we can’t be sure just what and what he did not know from such a short diary entry, but I still feel that he knew a great deal from those prophetic visions. He new that the dragon would resurface in some way, that there would be a new rider, and he knew a lot about the nature of the Towers, all of which was apparently imparted to him by the dragon.

My guess is that, seen as the Blue Dragon was identical to the Solo Wing’s Normal Class form, they are the same thing - and the reason that the dragon never morphed into the other Classes during the course of Zwei and PD1 was because it couldn’t morph at all in those games. Perhaps it just didn’t have the knowledge or power to do so back then? Or maybe - in regards to my big different-dragon-for-each-game theory - only Edge’s Dragon had the ability to morph at all, and it just introduced that unique angle to the Blue Dragon form when the Impurity finally brought it up to that level?

Hey, radical thaories are cool, and I’d like to hear them when you’ve decided… but as the the bit about the Impurity being Sestren’s target, I’m quite sure that this is true. The whole idea was that the Impurity desired to destroy Sestren’s and the Towers’ hold on the world, and to do this it entered into the body of Lagi; I think it’d be hard to dispute that. Similarly, Azel’s importance lay in her ability to open the gate to Sestren, surely?

20

I’m certain someone confirmed that the dragon the player rides throughout all the games so far was the same dragon.

I remember Abadd stating that the coolia was “the creature” Lundi found and named, in the midst of all our confusion about the dragon’s true identity. At that time we thought the mutant coolia and the gold dragon were the same entity. Edge even describes the gold dragon as “the dragon’s spirit”, so we naturally assumed it was his inner personality finally given a voice.

By virtue of the fact there was no way to distinguish between Lagi and the Heresy dragon as single entities until they separated, we may have an explanation for why Lundi believed Edge’s dragon inherited the soul (the Heresy dragon) of his old friend (Lagi). Now all it starts to make sense.