The RPG's top priority--character, battle system, or story?

[quote=“Kadamose”]

Worst than that thought was SEGA not bringing Grandia over , which still to this very day gets my skin up. The game was amazing in every way , and to make matters worse that Twat Bernie upsets one of the few corps that ‘might’ have brought Grandia over. All this at a time RPG mania inthe West was at its peak .

In saying that though, I wasn’t a fan of Vic and his school boy tantrums , a move which in the end cost him company , way

Grandia was ok.

As for Vic and Working Designs, who didn’t see that coming? When it takes four freaking years to bring out a first-generation game, you know there’s something seriously wrong (again, we go back to the laziness argument) - that, and that fact that he was a tad bit overbearing, is what ultimately cost him his company. Oh well, good riddance…the only good thing that company did anyway was bring over Falcom’s Popful Mail, which I still prize to this very day.[/quote]

What Working Desgin game took 4 years to come to retail ?,

Anway Grandia was more than ’ just ok’ and thanks to WD we got the Lunars’s and games like Iron Storm, Dragon Force , Pop Full mail some of my all time fave. The effort they put inthe packaging and voice over? s put almost all other corps to shame . Sure they never hit a street date, but most of the time their games were worth waiting for. Not overlooking that if SOA hadn?t upset Vic, we might have seen them convert the Shinning Force series (after all they did Shining Wisdom for the US market)never mind how l WD had Thunder Force V and the Raizing shooters singed up .

Of corse most of that could be just VIC saying it after the bust up with SEGA, and while I had no time for his childish rants, like it or not his corps was the only hope Saturn fans had of seeing the Shining Force series , Garndia, Dragoon Force II translated, pricks like Bernie weren’t going too, that much is for sure

Yeah. I just finished Grandia. While the PS version is probably nowhere near as pretty as the Saturn version, which I never got to experience, it sure beats the pants off of every game Square ever made.

After owning both versions of Grandia, I have to say in reality there’s very little difference between them.

Personally, something I would like to see from RPGs is encounters with more solutions. I would much rather play a game with with very few encounters, but where each one is of a higher quality, rather than the tedium that is endless random battles that all feel the same.

I’m actually going to use an example from Final Fantasy X here. Please don’t crucify me. XP

Right at the start there’s a battle where you’re outnumbered and surrounded, and you’re trying to reach the other end of the highway - in order to press forwards, you must attack the enemies in front of you. You are being attacked from all directions, but to get through the fight you don’t need to kill all your enemies - you just need to make it across the highway. I know it doesn’t sound like much, but just the addition of of the nice animations (it does this scene - including the movement - all within the battle system) and an actual context for the battle, with a goal other than “win the fight!” made it so much more involving than an average random battle.

This, and one or two other battles, stood out as moments that were actually engaging in a game that otherwise consists of walking down a very long, random battle infested road. =/

Another example.

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne had a wonderful art direction, a really intriguing setting and an interesting plot - unfortunately, I’m not sure where that plot goes, as I’ve not been able to finish it. Huge, sprawling, boring dungeons full of endless random battles managed to kill my interest before the end. I do intend to go back to it, but the idea of facing all those random battles is really putting me off.

I guess the point I’m making here is about variation. We all get sick of endless random battles that feel exactly the same. Abadd, I believe, pointed out that as great as Skies of Arcadia was, you could cut most of the random battles and it would actually be a better game. I personally think Skies contained enough interesting boss battles and puzzles in the dungeons that you could cut all the random battles, and it wouldn’t hurt the game. But maybe that’s just me.

In the future, I’d like to see more RPGs that have less encounters - but make each one much better thought out. It’s much more interesting when an encounter has an objective - and how you achieve it is up to you. If someone is trying to kill you then simply not dying would be the objective - and how you achieve it should be up to you. If you think the smartest thing to do is to run away - then not only should it be an option, they should make the battle system include a system for it that is as well thought out and interesting to play as the option to fight. It would use different skills from the combat option, and when you succeed you should get the same reward experience wise for completing the encounter in your own way. Too many Western RPGs nerf non-combat characters, because they quite simply don’t get experience, because they don’t fight.

A good thing that Western RPGs do (and JRPGs usually don’t) is keep conversations interactive - story sections feel far more like part of the game, rather than tacked-on movies - when there’s a system behind the conversations. It’s usually much harder to work this sort of thing into a plot with a main character who is simply a viewpoint character for the player - and has his own personality - rather than a plot where the main character’s personality is up to the player, of course, which is why this doesn’t usually feature in JRPGs. Still, it’s possible to add dialogue options that allow you to make decisions for the character, but keeping it within the sort of thing that character would ask about, and not letting the player choose exactly how it’s said. Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy, for those outside Europe) had a rather good system that was somewhat like this.

I’ve heard a lot of people saying games that leave the main character’s personality up to the player are superior to simply having a viewpoint character, and vice versa. I don’t think that either is superior to the other - they’re just different methods of story telling in the medium. It’s sort of like arguing that books written in first person are superior to ones written in third person. While you may have a preference, both are equally valid ways of telling a story, and I don’t think it’s a good mentality to think that all games should do it one way or the other.

Oh, and as a side note - I’m really looking forward to Mass Effect. Bioware are working on making a really compelling conversation system for it. It’s nice to see developers looking to improve aspects of their game that AREN’T the combat system.

My theory on good game design is that the more you can keep interactive, the better. It’s what sets video games apart from other mediums. If something is being put into a cut scene - I think the developers should ask themselves why. If the scene could be playable, they should make it so. At least, that’s my take on it.

As for video game plots - while it may be true that really deep narratives aren’t as common as they should be (although I maintain that there are more than you might think) - I reckon that the average plot in a video game such as Final Fantasy is better than your average Hollywood movie. Seriously, at least FF has fleshed-out characters and always make an attempt at symbolism. While they might be fairly amateur, which would you say is better? Final Fantasy, or the latest Vin Diesel action movie?

@ Alex, Geoff and Kadamose.

Totally on Alex’s side for this one. It’s not laziness on the developers part that they get saddled with a bad project. In fact, it’s proof that the developers really care about what they do that the latest crappy football game looks so good and features great physics. As Alex said, devs quite simply DO NOT get into video games purely for the money - with the same qualifications there are FAR more lucrative jobs out there. Don’t blame the devs for working on these games - blame the state of the industry that demands that developers produce only “safe” games in order for a publisher to show any interest. If the developer doesn’t already have a large enough fan base and an established franchise to fall back on, then anything that could be deemed risky has very little chance of ever seeing the light of day. And the alternative to developing games that actually will get published is to go out of business.

Planescape: Torment :anjou_happy:

I agree pretty much entirely, Drenholm. Knocking down 400 soldiers in half an hour of Dyansty Warriors is no where near as compelling as the 16 planned, though-out Colossi (Colossus’?) in Shadow of the Colossus. I’d much rather RPGs give me twenty spectacular fights than two hundred zombies, slimes or were rats.

Sadly, I can’t see the situation changing any time soon - rewarding players for skill, planning and style is far more difficult than “kill monster = EXP” which means that the priests and bards will still be battering things about the head for a good while to come :slight_smile:

[quote=“Drenholm”]While they might be fairly amateur, which would you say is better? Final Fantasy, or the latest Vin Diesel action movie?

@ Alex, Geoff and Kadamose.[/quote]

They’d both tie for extreme idiocy. I mean, seriously, the Final Fantasy series’ script ALWAYS seems like it was written by a fucking third grader. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if that were true. As for Hollywood drivel, well, we already know that most scripts are made by stupid, lazy, illiterate people who have no clue whatsoever when it comes down to writing dialogue. I have yet to see a movie, that takes itself seriously, where this statement does not apply.

Final Conclusion: They both equally suck and are not worth anyone’s precious time.

Growlanser.

Oh, and Magic Knights Rayearth - that game took about 5 years.

Drenhold - I should have phrased it “more RPGs that are not about saving the world” :wink:

As for your reference to FFX, I actually thought “heh… they did something right!” when I played through that sequence. The fact that there is dialog during the battles, that there was a contextual point to the battles… all made a huge difference. After that, though, it devolved back into the usual FF stuff =\

Solo - Certain things could be done that the player could notice. For example, your first time passing through a small village, everything is fine and dandy. But as you pass through the area again, perhaps the village has been raided by local bandits? No quest to slay the bandits… no need to save them. It’s just a reality of their world and they are already on their way to rebuilding and recovery. Or something as simple as a passage of seasons. Take Jade Empire, for example. The passing of seasons is a huge part of Asian culture, poetry, mythology, and whatnot. Colors, weather, and whatnot are constantly used as references to certain seasons, each with a certain set of emotions and themes that come attached. None of those were even mentioned in Jade Empire.

As for your comments about gamers plugging through quests as quickly as possible and all that. Maybe it’s just a byproduct of how we’ve been programmed to play? Are fetch quests really that fun? Are non-essential battles really that fun? I mean, what would the LOTR movies have been like if every 5 minutes, the main characters were suddenly assaulted by 5 goblins which they quickly dispatched of each time in a matter of seconds? Penny Arcade made a great point when talking about the Gambit system in FF12. While I haven’t played it myself, they talk about how they didn’t like the idea at first, then realized that in all the random encounters, you simply pound on the X button until all the mobs are dead anyway. How is that any fun?

I have a design for an RPG where a designer friend of mine and I took a long hard look at what RPGs are, why they are that way, and then tried to rethink how to achieve the same goals without relying on preconceived gameplay constructs. I think we came up with some amazing solutions… that would unfortunately require an enormous budget to achieve :stuck_out_tongue:

But someday, man! Someday!

edit: And Kadamose, seriously. No need for the personal insults.

[quote=“Kadamose”]

Growlanser.

Oh, and Magic Knights Rayearth - that game took about 5 years.[/quote]

Read that on the internet did we ? , Go and read the translations notes and you?ll find out it took 30 months , not 48 or 60

There’s loads ( but you do after look), thanks to the use if the VDP II on Saturn, The water effects are miles and miles off (just go to the docks) and latter on inthe game there effects like Fog effects which just aren’t as good onthe PS. Much like with Thunder Force V , the PS had trouble when emulating the VDP II

I almost spit water from my mouth when you said about Hentai games. I thought those kind of games had no gameplay, story or characters, nothing. I don’t why the hell you talk about it.

For someone who called me a retard for comparing FF and PDS, you’re just jealous that theres no SAGA 2. So, why complain about FF, they have nothing to do with PDS? Heck, if I tell the FF fans about PDS, they won’t even know what I say.

I think it was your choice to play those porn games. Perhaps out of jealousy. If you complain about FF and how bad it is, keep your mouth shut or you’ll face a million fans out there.

I’d be perfectly content if there were more RPGs like PDS. Sega got it right on where the genre needs to be, they just didn’t have enough time to implement the other important features such as the skill based experience points rewards, and other things such as game difficulty and balancing. When it comes right down to it, PDS is the most perfect RPG ever, and it’s saddening that Sega and the other companies do not agree.

[quote=“Light Wing”]I almost spit water from my mouth when you said about Hentai games. I thought those kind of games had no gameplay, story or characters, nothing. I don’t why the hell you talk about it.

For someone who called me a retard for comparing FF and PDS, you’re just jealous that theres no SAGA 2. So, why complain about FF, they have nothing to do with PDS? Heck, if I tell the FF fans about PDS, they won’t even know what I say.

I think it was your choice to play those porn games. Perhaps out of jealousy. If you complain about FF and how bad it is, keep your mouth shut or you’ll face a million fans out there.[/quote]

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The Final Fantasy script is written by people like these.
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Totally incoherent.

Seriously, before you people start bashing Hentai Games, you all should find a torrent of Gore Screaming Show and play it - it has, by far, one of the best storylines ever written, since it leaves NO plotholes or anything. It’s also one of the goriest games ever, because as the name implies, there’s lots of killing…rape and dismemberment. It basically has everything a twisted mind can think of - which is excellent.

Dude, I’m 14 and I’m a girl. You want me to see that stuff? You’re such a sick bastard.

The quicker you’re desensitized to it, the better. One of the major things that’s wrong with Western society is that it’s sexually repressed. Of course, alot of this repression has alot to do with the idiotic religious people who are completely unaware that their so-called jealous god is completely fictional. God, save us from religion.

Of course, there’s a large difference between being sexually repressed and being sexually deviant, but why split hairs?

sigh

[quote=“Abadd”]Of course, there’s a large difference between being sexually repressed and being sexually deviant, but why split hairs?

sigh[/quote]

Sexually eccentric? Never heard that one before.

While money is the biggest motivation, I don’t foresee games being all they can be when tailored for this majority of non-gamers. You only need to take one look at the adaptation of say, I-Robot, to see how something truly profound was made more marketable to an audience that may have otherwise found it too alien to fully grasp. In which case, why adapt the book to the big screen in the first place if it isn’t faithful to the source material?

Ruin a story or go out of business? Recycle themes or go out of business? These excuses only go so far.

[quote=“Kadamose”]

The quicker you’re desensitized to it, the better. One of the major things that’s wrong with Western society is that it’s sexually repressed. Of course, alot of this repression has alot to do with the idiotic religious people who are completely unaware that their so-called jealous god is completely fictional. God, save us from religion.[/quote]

True to an extent. Over-exposure just numbs people to it all over time. Constant violence can destroy every inche of a person, and to them, someone beating someone else to a bloody pulp is nothing out of the ordinary.

So no, constant exposure isn’t the solution to the problem of sexual repression because it can create its own set of expectations enslaving the will of a whole new generation of people. Why does a woman have to have globular breasts before she can be attractive to you? You want girls barely into their teens undergoing surgery, having their bodies cut open, for breast implants, or starving themselves to death to lose weight just so they can feel wanted?

As for God, he/she/it/whatever you believe would see where you were coming from, don’t worry.

In actual fact this (the abandonment of God) is infinitely more thought-provoking subject matter than how much an adolescent hates their father.

Oh my children do they cry. Do they hear their father sigh?

Well, for one thing, breasts on a woman simply means that she has an abundance of estrogen and is suitable for offspring. Women are meant to be soft, curvacious, graceful and nurturing. Unfortunately, due to genetics and enviromental triggers, the modern female has become the antithesis of what was originally intended; this metamorphisis has made the modern female almost completely masculin. Of course, the same can be said about males, as well - through observation, it’s been observed that many males are becoming more feminine and this has been linked to one of the main reasons why men’s sperm counts are drastically dropping.

As far as my own tastes go, however, I prefer blondes with blue eyes and big tits, not because the aryan race is genetically superior (even though that is true) but because they are aesthetically pleasing. I always shake my head in disgust whenever I go to a populated city and see many knocked up women – only to see that that they have no redeeming qualities whatsoever: most of them are fat, ugly, and lack intelligence. The most unfortunate thing about this is, is the fact that the offspring will acquire those worthless traits and repeat the cycle. With this in mind, is it any wonder why the world is rapidly decending into the pits of a self-created hell? The only thing that can really save us now is genetic engineering, transhumanism, and nanotechnology…because the gene pool is now fucked beyond repair.