I didnt say all that to show the game is about good and evil, I just questioned there being anything “bad” with the riders themselves.
Edge was in the empire but he was quick to change his feelings about it when he saw the real ruthless face of the empire no?
At best the imperials are ignorant, at worst they are greedy and love themselves way too much
Zastava WAS evil in a way, he was a psycho imo, even Craymen didn’t like how he killed people and it showed in the intro if I remember right. He was in it for the killing it seems and didn’t care for what side it was.
Craymen was good I suppose but he did wrong things too. He realised his wrongs imo and wanted to set things right for once in his life by sacrifising himself to save Edge (and possibly a lot more people than that since I don’t think the Grig Orig was only a “Dragon killer” thing;)
And imo there WAS something sinister about the towers what with all the monster breeding, the Will Of The Ancients and their potential ressucitation (which now won’t happen ever propably after the events in Orta)
Well the monster breeding alone is reason enough but imo there’s more to it than that.
In an ideal world it would be about good vs evil yes, but the PD world is similar to ours so it’s far from ideal thats why there’s all those conflicts involved.
And also let’s not forget that the Dragon and Dragoons are basically a third independent “side” while the main “two sides” of the PD world are the Seekers and the Empire.
Sure they have more in common with the Seekers and even befriend them but that only happens in Saga, and well, for a good reason since the Seekers seem to be the ones with the real noble goals even if their methods aren’t that great sometimes(like jailing Orta).
But again this is war really and they are humans. Humans make mistakes.
Seekers make mistakes. Craymen made mistakes.
The Empire does much more than “mistakes”.
Picture this: you live in a world populated by monsters, all of which would like to shred your flesh and feed on your insides. You don’t really want this to happen to you, so what do you do?
a) Join the Empire, where you and your family are guaranteed safety and luxury
b) Join the Seekers, who although organized have inferior weapons to the Empire’s
c) Live as a nomad, which is almost certain death by monsters
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]I don’t see how the dragon riders are evil.
What did Lundi do that was so evil? He was basically hunted down by the empire. Should he not defend himself?
And what about Edge, when did he kill people that he didn’t have to do so in order to survive/save other ppl?
And Kyle? He was attacked on first place as well no?[/quote]
I didn’t mean the dragon riders themselves were evil. But they were influenced by the bond with Lagi. I doubt their actions were really their own choice, especially in Edge’s case. And how do we know if their actions could be considered good? The Ancients wanted to create a perfect world, but their way to accomplish that seemed rather insane. The rebels wanted to stop their plan, but how do we know the rebels’ plan (Heresy program, Divine Visitor) was that righteous itself?
Tell me this: was the attack on the Vermana in the first episode necessary? Seems to me like she really wanted to destroy it. And the Imperial squadron Iva was in? How could they possible have been any threat to her? She could have easily avoided that battle. They didn’t even have the chance to fire back.
I dont mean to be pedantic but that isnt what I said. I said IF the empire was peace loving(which they werent) then Lagi still would have destroyed them if they got in his way of getting the towers. The empire really was power hungry and not peace loving at all but that was merely a convenience, what I am saying is that the pollitical allegience of the empire was irrelevant to the heresy dragon, he would have destroyed anything that tried to stop him from destroying the towers regardless of whether it was good or evil.
Vyper03, how can you know what would Lagi do if the empire was a peaceful nation? Either way how would anyone use the Towers for “good”? That was the original Ancients’ intention (maybe atleast, we don’t know for sure) as well but it went horribly wrong didn’t it?
Edge wasnt guided by the heresy program he was guided by the divine visitor. We don’t have any evidence showing that the Dragoons do not have a will of their own when they bond with the Dragon.
Nevey, I didn’t call all Imperials evil did I? I just said they aren’t so innocent when they join a destructive force like the empire for their own well being and your post does nothin to counter that. When they do so horrible things for their own well being then how is it wrong to stop them from doing those horrible things? World domination is their moto imo. Saying that it was wrong in any way to defend against them or attack them in order to prevent them from doing certain things is pretty much like saying it was wrong to oppose the Germany in WW2 because not all Germans were evil and they only fell for what their leader was saying.
D-Unit, I don’t recall how the Vermana attack happened sorry.
I’m not sure how much credit we can give to Iva’s sub scenario. It may be “true” but it may also be something to show us Orta in another perspective.
Even if it is “true” this could be supposed to have been a story told by imperials so they could have changed things around to make Orta appear evil.
Either way Orta has nothin to do with the previous dragoons and the heresy program isn’t involved here either so even if she turns out evil (though with what we’ve seen so far imo she’s far from that) it doesn’t mean the previous riders were too. We have nothin against them.
Like D-Unit said, Orta didn’t have to take out that Imperial squadron that Iva was in. Or attack Assault Carrier Vermana. That’s really what I was on about.
(Actually, I’m learning about WW2 in History at the mo… :D)
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]D-Unit, I don’t recall how the Vermana attack happened sorry.
I’m not sure how much credit we can give to Iva’s sub scenario. It may be “true” but it may also be something to show us Orta in another perspective.
Even if it is “true” this could be supposed to have been a story told by imperials so they could have changed things around to make Orta appear evil.[/quote]
Iva’s story was indeed intended to show the dragon and Orta from another perspective. It’s a nice way to show us how most of the Empire thinks about the dragon. However, the story showed us that Iva’s real enemy wasn’t Orta. I admit that this is actually no proof that Orta is evil, quite the contrary even. Eventually, both Iva and Orta end up fighting the dragonmares. Iva’s story was told by Iva himself though, so there’s not much chance that it wasn’t showing us exactly what happened.
I never said the riders were evil, I was just wondering about the ancient rebels’ intentions when they created (or altered) the Heresy program. In Orta’s case, I realize that Orta seemed to become a more peaceful character towards the end. In fact, I’m not sure Smilebit ever considered the possibility of changing her into an evil character. If were ever going to see a a sequel and Orta’s character doesn’t change, I wouldn’t be surprised at all. But the thing is, it’s not that difficult to change her into an evil character. We don’t know how Lagi’s dead affected her. And why would she feel any sympathy for the Empire and the Seekers?
Well, here’s my general take on the “good or evil” thing.
The relationships between different characters and societies in the PD world are reasonably complex, and there are various enmities between them. Although the parties certainly do view one another as being morally right or wrong, I’d say that this is as far as the whole good vs evil thing goes; just a matter of opinion and perspective.
The PD world is realistic in that it offers quite complex and deep characters, who are hard to define in black and white terms. If you all remember, Edge set out at the beginning of Saga with the intent of killing Craymen; a simple journey of revenge. This is of course morally questionable, even if Craymen was responsible for the death of Edge’s friends.
But Edge is not evil because of this, he is simply a passionate and complex character. Even Zastava is eventually reclaimed, to some extent - ending up as something like a “noble barbarian” character who turns his strength against the greater threat of the Empire. And as Zastava is apparently insane, his “evilness” is harder to quantify. Even the most extreme characters - with the possible exception of the Emperor, who we ultimately know very little about - are much more than good or evil stereotypes.
Something that occured to me is that Iva’s sub-scenarios present the relationship between Orta and the Empire as typical to the two sides of a war. Both see the other as only “enemy”, only “evil”, whereas these are both ultimately limited points of view. Orta’s first experience with the Empire was those Dragonmares bearing down on her, and Imperial ships shooting at her, and I’d imagine that they had quite a negative impact. Iva’s view of Orta and the dragon, similarly, is mostly based on propaganda and folklore. That image of the vicious “dragon of destruction” ridden by a glowing-eyed rider is clearly a misconception, but like Iva, most of the Empire would not be able to know this.
As to the “evilness” of the PD riders, none of them ever do go out of their way to vindictively destroy any innocent Imperials. The only things destroyed in the games are the Imperial warships, after all, which from the rider’s perspective are out to kill them, so the act is pretty much self-defense. If the rider ever fires first, this would be understandable (if morally questionable), as anyone might be a bit jumpy after being shot at so much. Similarly, Edge does go after Grig Orig in Saga for vengeance, but also to eliminate the massive threat that it represents.
At the end of the day, the Emperor is always depicted as being greedy and tyrannical, but the Empire is just a human nation - just a society of people. We never really get to experience the non-military aspect of the Empire first-hand, but it seems that the normal citizens are no different from those of any human society.
I’m just personally glad that the PD world isn’t some shallow war of good vs evil, like so many other game storylines. Such things seem uninteresting and unrealistic, and ultimately pointless…
The Empire needs a face. It needs characters who believe in conquering the world and plundering all the ancient technologies just like the abmirals in Skies of Arcadia.
Abmiral Belleza said she believed in conquering other nations because if every country was under one rule, there would be no more wars. Sounds good to me!
Belleza was a well written character. She reminded me a lot of Craymen actually. She wanted to save the world by putting it under one rule. Craymen wanted to do the same - “Someone or something has to take control of everything or we will continue to destroy ourselves”. Interesting logic, although I can’t say I fully agree with him.
I think it would be cool if you could start off on the side of the empire, just hunting and killing monsters threatening imperial towns. Then Orta could appear first as your enemy then finally you would realise the empire was power hungry and evil then you could blow up their ancient weapon mining facility with Orta’s help. I think 2 dragons on the same side would be great. Probably better for a shooter game though. Also I quite like the idea of playing as an imperial dragon with imperial markings and being a hero for the people rather than a misunderstood rogue.
You know what else reminds me (REALLY reminds me) of PDS characters?
Has anyone read Phillip Pullman’s His Dark Materials series?
(Golden Compass, Subtle Knife, Amber Spyglass)
It’s another story basically about the end of the world, revolving around a guy and a girl who defy everything in order to save the world.
The Inquisition (the church) is out to get them because what they are doing is religiously heretical, and a man named Lord Asriel is fighting the Inquisition because he believes they are wrong. Eventually, the guy and the girl join with Asriel and they fight a huge war. And in the end, it turns into the ultimate battle between Heaven and Earth, Light and Darkness, so on and so forth.
It’s the 2nd-best good vs. evil book I’ve ever read.
If you can’t think of the 1st, you should be shot.
You can imagine who all of these can be compared to in PDS.
Yhea using the empire like you would use the main character would be cool, but might put you at a disadvantage, i mean really, how could a tank fair against bio-lasers? Not too fun, but then again what you might find out about the empire, if the guy does then you could join the heros side, but you get a chance to sort of do this in ortas sub senerios. Also fighting agaisnt ortas enemies and your own could be alot of fun, hard, but fun none the less…too bad they didnt think of something like this to do.
If Sega developed a new Panzer RPG, I’m positive we’ll gain more than just a glimpse of the inner workings of the Empire. Where else will we find viable villains?
Anyways - funny fact : today I dreamed about the arrival of a new PD RPG!I was on the net and I saw a little trailer where suposely two of the main characters where a couple (she was Orta’s daughter and looked exactly like Azel and he was related to Paet).Funny dream.Weird too.
