The Ancients were human

Panzer Dragoon
1

URU UNDERGROUND GENETICS LAB

Edge: What is this place? These creatures…They look like my dragon…

Azel: They’re the failures. Long ago, this was a genetics lab where prototype dragons were created. The project was terminated before they were finished.

Edge: Who created them?

Azel: HUMANS

Edge: Are you saying that humans created the dragons!?

Azel: Does that surprise you? Your dragon is no different than the monsters your fighting. They were both created by humans, and exist only to fulfill the duties asssigned to them. As do I…

So Azel even states that the ancients were in fact human. Is this statement by Azel sufficient proof that the ancients were human and the divine creators of all the bio-engineered creatures and technology?

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab1.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab2.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab3.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab4.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab5.jpg

2

Of course the English translation is extremely loose…

3

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab1.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab2.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab3.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab4.jpg

http://www.retroandhelix.0catch.com/urulab5.jpg

4

The dialogue seems unambiguous… While the translation may have been loose, it’s difficult to believe that the word “human” was not present in the japanese dialogue.

5

Waits for Abadd to comment.

This was discussed before at the old forums. Suffice it to say, every piece of dialogue stating or suggesting that the ancients were human is questionable.

6

The funny thing is that there have been several occasions throughout the PD series where it was stated that the Ancients were human, but we’ve never seen any indication that the Ancients weren’t human. Even Abadd never said they weren’t human, but (IIRC) he said that “thinking they were human might lead one to think they were different than what they truly are”.

7

I don’t even know why I like to think that the ancients weren’t human.

I think it just makes them more mysterious.

8

Maybe they were humans but at some point in history they turned into something more advanced using bioengineering. The other people remained fully humans maybe because just a elite were allowed to undergo the proccess.

I don’t recall seeing anything that can validate the theory that ancients weren’t humans in the games either.

9

[quote=“D-Unit”]

The funny thing is that there have been several occasions throughout the PD series where it was stated that the Ancients were human, but we’ve never seen any indication that the Ancients weren’t human. Even Abadd never said they weren’t human, but (IIRC) he said that “thinking they were human might lead one to think they were different than what they truly are”.[/quote]

Yeah, but have you noticed that Abadd is constantly reminding us that there’s no real proof suggesting the ancients were human in the Japanese Panzer games as if he wants us to keep an open mind.

If the ancients were human, then where’s the harm in stating it in the Japanese games? Their identity has been shrouded in mystery for a reason…

Almost everyone believes the ancients were human anyway, so why would anyone challenge that belief if there was some truth in it… unless it wasn’t quite true or not true at all?

Personally, I don’t believe that the rulers of the ancient civilisation, also known as the gods, were quite human. Have you ever watched Babylon 5? In it an incredibly advanced alien race called the Vorlons became so powerful that they started believing they were gods… until they encountered an equally powerful race with a darker agenda.

The ancients would need to be or become immortal before they could convince themselves that they were gods, but for all intents and purposes, they were gods. What is a god if not someone who can create life?

Now, if an official source dares to claim that the theme of gods present all throughout Panzer Dragoon Saga was the product of a poor translation as well, then I won’t know what to believe.

I dare say the Empire and the Seekers know exactly what the ancients were…

10

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]Yeah, but have you noticed that Abadd is constantly reminding us that there’s no real proof suggesting the ancients were human in the Japanese Panzer games as if he wants us to keep an open mind.

If the ancients were human, then where’s the harm in stating it in the Japanese games? Their identity has been shrouded in mystery for a reason…

Almost everyone believes the ancients were human anyway, so why would anyone challenge that belief if there was some truth in it… unless it wasn’t quite true or not true at all?[/quote]

I’m convinced that the Ancients at least originated from the human race. As I recently suggested, they could have used the Sestren to become evolved beings of data. Or they could have evolved into something else. Like you said, if they were simply human there would be no reason for anyone to suggest otherwise.

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]Personally, I don’t believe that the rulers of the ancient civilisation, also known as the gods, were quite human. Have you ever watched Babylon 5? In it an incredibly advanced alien race called the Vorlons became so powerful that they started believing they were gods… until they encountered an equally powerful race with a darker agenda.

The ancients would need to be or become immortal before they could convince themselves that they were gods, but for all intents and purposes, they were gods. What is a god if not someone who can create life?[/quote]

We can’t be sure that the Ancients tried to become Gods though, or if they ever believed they were. Their level of technology could have been enough to make people believe that they were Gods, but this might not have been their intention. The Uru records seem to suggest they weren’t god-like beings at all.

The Empire seemed to believe the Ancients were humans. However, this belief has caused the Empire to destroy itself again and again, so maybe they don’t know enough. They seemed to think that the Ancients’ technology belonged to them, but Abadd (the drone) clearly didn’t see the Imperials as descendants from the Ancients. He found nothing but “filth and destruction”, and thought that drones were more fit to inherit the world than humanity itself. If you take this into consideration, it again seems that the Ancients must somehow have been different from the humans that currently inhabit the world.

11

Hmm… that’s a good point. Abadd didn’t seem to think highly of humanity, if he gave it any thought at all.

So we agree that the ancients were somehow more evolved, whether through bio-engineering, evolution, knowledge or technology?

I do believe it’s possible that the ancients were so arrogant that they thought they were gods. If only someone would provide us with a direct translation of the original Japanese Saturn Panzer Dragoon trilogy scripts. I’m sure the artbooks and guidbooks contain a lot of never-before-seen insights into the series as well. It makes me wonder what we don’t know. However, the information contained in Panzer Dragoon Orta was clearly intended to alleviate our ignorance… to some degree.

12

Okay. . . I’m sorry if I missed something. . . Abadd is a cool guy and all, but why the hell does everyone “wait” for him to comment on a PD thread?

Did he work for Sega or something among those lines? Help me out here people. . . .

13

[quote=“U K Narayan”]

Okay. . . I’m sorry if I missed something. . . Abadd is a cool guy and all, but why the hell does everyone “wait” for him to comment on a PD thread?

Did he work for Sega or something among those lines? Help me out here people. . . .[/quote]

Let’s just say that Abadd is a friend of the Panzer community who can be described as an “official source”.

14

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]Hmm… that’s a good point. Abadd didn’t seem to think highly of humanity, if he gave it any thought at all.

So we agree that the ancients were somehow more evolved, whether through bio-engineering, evolution, knowledge or technology?[/quote]

If the Ancients were indeed human - which seems more and more likely - then at what point in time did humans become “the Ancients”? The people we describe as “the Ancients” seem to have built the Towers in order to overcome humanity’s greatest flaw: the ability to destroy itself. By keeping humanity under control, they could successfully rebuild the world while they went into hibernation. They probably thought that this was the only way to allow humanity to survive.

Another issue: if the Ancients were human, then they must have been unable to operate their own ruins. Why would the Ancients prevent themselves from operating their own structures? Did the Ancients become so evolved that they needed the drones as a tool? Or was it simply a safety measure, so that no humans could ever achieve control over the Towers?

15

They are human it?s so obvious at the ending of SAGA.

16

Another possibility is that the Ancients’ technologies became so advanced that the Drones were a necessity. It looks like the Towers (which the Ancients needed Drones to operate) would have been so complex and unique that a normal human mind couldn’t interface with them. Drones tended to control technologies with their thoughts, so I’m guessing that this was the only appropriate way to operate those structures. Assuming that the Ancients were human, that would mean that they had no choice but to make the Drones; if they wanted to play around with such advanced technology, they would have to create custom-made workers to operate it for them.

As for the Ancients being strictly human or not, it’d make sense if they used their bio-engineering skills to enhance their own bodies. There’s no real evidence either way, but everything in the Ancients’ world appeared to be shaped by their mastery of genetics. It’d at least be logical for them to improve themselves, too; making their bodies more powerful and more durable, and ultimately less human.

17

They human, and if you read between the lines at the end of SAGA. You?ll see that Team Androemda are having a tongue in-cheekjoke at their self?s.

And at todays technology (well 1996/7)

18

The word “humans” is not news for me.The only thing that doesn’t let be 100% convinced they were human is the fact the english translation of Saga is known to have some problems.

#"@$% is it so hard for us to contact someone who can give us official info??

Oh…

…i forgot : such questions might not even have been given answers by the creators when they made Saga…

19

If the Ancients weren’t human, and every single point where the Ancients are refered to as human in the Saturn games is wrong, then why wasn’t the original Panzer Dragoon re-translated when it was added to Orta’s Pandora’s Box? I doubt it would have taken long to translate the few lines of text that make up the game, yet the opening text consists of several important pieces of information that confirm that there were humans living in the Ancient Age.

Thousands of years have passed since a once thriving human civilization perished in the dust.

the few remaining human beings struggle to regain the power that they have lost

So, a human civilisation did thrive in the Ancient Age. The question is, was 100% of that population actually human?

20

I think that they simply didn’t bother updating the first game. But even in PD Orta, both Iva and the Empire stated that the Ancients were human. It’s of course possible that they simply didn’t know the real identity of the Ancients, but again we hear nothing about them not being human. The game’s introduction does say this though:

“However, from amidst the ashes, a human Empire rose to power.”

This might give the impression that there was a non-human Empire once. Is this simply a way of making the Ancients look more mysterious?

Pandora’s Box further complicates things by stating that “the Ancients” are in fact “the citizens of the Ancient Age”, which means humans were indeed Ancients once. Why would some of those Ancients be different from the humans living among them?