Silent Hill 5 and Playing Pass-the-Franchise-Licence

Yesterday I came across the news (slightly late, I know) that Silent Hill 5 is going to be outsourced rather than developed by Team Silent. It’s been long known that the case is the same with the prequel game Silent Hill Origins, which is also in development at the moment (for the PSP, and by a different company than is assigned to Silent Hill 5). Effectively this means that the series is no longer being continued by the people who created it, at least for the foreseeable future.

I’m sure the net is filled with forum topics regarding SH5’s fate, so that isn’t the only reason I made this topic. The question currently in my head is “Is this a good thing?”, not just for Silent Hill but for any game franchise in this situation; and more specifically, under what circumstances can this be a good thing?

The only way it could EVER be a good thing, is if the original story writer is involved with the project. This is a fact that has been proven many times with other series when the original story writer was not involved (anyone remember the disastrous Blood Omen 2 or the pathetic Panzer Dragoon Orta?) Basically, what happens when you lose the most important member of the development team is you get a game that isn’t canon with its predecessors.

Outsourcing programmers isn’t a big deal - but when you outsource art designers and story writers, especially when it’s for a game series that’s generally considered epic, the outcome will never be good.

Considering the state of Silent Hill 4, I can’t see it as anything but a good thing. F Zero GX was outsourced. Some of the design and character work for Suikoden 5 was handed over to Hudson. Gradius V was developed by Treasure. Outsourcing =/= bad games.

I’d use a lot of words to describe PDO, but pathetic wouldn’t be one of them. I’d use that word when talking about Sega’s handling of that series, but for me a truely pathetic game is some rubbish like Crazy Frog Racer or Tak and the Power of JuJu.

[quote=“Kadamose”]The only way it could EVER be a good thing, is if the original story writer is involved with the project. This is a fact that has been proven many times with other series when the original story writer was not involved (anyone remember the disastrous Blood Omen 2 or the pathetic Panzer Dragoon Orta?) Basically, what happens when you lose the most important member of the development team is you get a game that isn’t canon with its predecessors.

Outsourcing programmers isn’t a big deal - but when you outsource art designers and story writers, especially when it’s for a game series that’s generally considered epic, the outcome will never be good.[/quote]

It depends if the writers and artists respect the source material. If you check out Bethesda’s Fallout 3 you will see that they’ve kept much faithful to the original games.

Just because Konami has outsourced this does not mean it will take a turn for the worst, especially if they have people overseeing the development. The script for SH3 had already been written when SH2 was being made, so we have no idea what the staff had planned.

And judging from the making of SH videos the developers take this quite seriously.

The trailer sounds rather intriguing. “They say war is hell, but there are worse things”.

Can you say awesome?

The main problem with SH4 was that it wasn’t originally planned to be a SH game, so the SH team found themselves a little lost at the start. It was a game that didn’t know what to do with itself because you had moments of oldschool horror tainted with misdirection.

I can understand Konami wanting to use the SH brand to make it more recognisable.

I felt the main flaw lay with main character’s utter lifelessness. He was a zombified male model running on barely grasped curiosity, but other parts of the game did have a lot of redeeming qualities, even if you had to look too hard to find them sometimes.

SH2-3 were just awesome for what they were. I don’t see why SH5 can’t be as well.

There are plenty of good examples of games being outsourced and receiving a boost. Take a look at the recent DQ8. Done by Level 5 and received scores in the 9s. Metroid is another good example.

That’s a good point, but my own personal bugbear with the game was the invincible ghosts that can spawn anywhere at any time and damage you just by being near you - not to mention that beating them only makes them stand in the corner for a short while (and in one partilcularly helpful instance, blocking off the exit).

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]The main problem with SH4 was that it wasn’t originally planned to be a SH game, so the SH team found themselves a little lost at the start. It was a game that didn’t know what to do with itself because you had moments of oldschool horror tainted with misdirection.

I can understand Konami wanting to use the SH brand to make it more recognisable.[/quote]

I agree that Silent Hill 4 should be cut some amount of slack, as it was an SH game in name alone (well, in name and in a half-dozen irrelevant links to the previous games’ plots). The last “proper” SH game was certainly the third, and to be honest, SH3 gives me reason to think that a new team’s take on the series might be quite welcome.

As good as SH3 was in its own right, it didn’t seem to do anything that the second game hadn’t already done. While that didn’t bother me much for that game alone, I wonder how many SH2/SH3 clones I could play through before the magic would keel over and die. As an obvious parallel, I thoroughly enjoyed the first few Resident Evil games I played, but by the time I’d gone through RE1, RE2, RE3, Code Veronica, the RE1 remake and RE0, I’d honestly lost interest; they were just different iterations of the same game. If RE4 hadn’t been billed as significantly different, I wouldn’t have felt interested in it.

Although I don’t think Silent Hill is at that stage yet, I also think it’s perhaps better that it never gets there. A new team will hopefully bring some sort of innovation.

It’s interesting you mentioned the storyline first because, for me, the storyline is not the selling point of the SH series. (My opinion is that the first game’s storyline is unnecessarily cryptic and not particularly rewarding; that the second game’s narrative is very good, but more of a concept than a story; that the third game has effectively no plot except for the revelation in the middle of the game that what happened in SH1 is more or less happening again; and that the fourth game has probably the most developed plot of any of them, despite having a non-character as the protagonist and barely being a Silent Hill game.)

What attracts me is the playing experience itself, which I feel is really defined by the mood and atmosphere of the games; without this distinct atmosphere, the games would be little more than Resident Evil clones, as the gameplay is otherwise mostly identical. The art direction and audio direction and the well-thought-out horror set-pieces in each game are the things that really set them apart in my opinion.

This is partly why I feel warier about the series being outsourced than some other game series: this abstract, artistic angle is the sort of thing that different developers can have quite different takes on.

As a quick example, one of the monsters in an earlier (and discarded) version of Silent Hill Origins looked to me like it had walked straight out of a cheesy Hollywood zombie film; it was a mutant/zombie style monster that I’d say barely fitted the feel of the SH series at all. The person who designed it presumably didn’t think that, though.

I’d say that several successful outsourced games - the Metroid Primes and F-Zero GX, for example - have an easier ride in that they don’t have as much abstract and artistic baggage weighing them down.

Anyhow, on a related note, some more info and media for Silent Hill Origins has started turning up online since I posted this topic.

[quote=“Lance Way”]

It’s interesting you mentioned the storyline first because, for me, the storyline is not the selling point of the SH series. (My opinion is that the first game’s storyline is unnecessarily cryptic and not particularly rewarding; that the second game’s narrative is very good, but more of a concept than a story; that the third game has effectively no plot except for the revelation in the middle of the game that what happened in SH1 is more or less happening again; and that the fourth game has probably the most developed plot of any of them, despite having a non-character as the protagonist and barely being a Silent Hill game.)

What attracts me is the playing experience itself, which I feel is really defined by the mood and atmosphere of the games; without this distinct atmosphere, the games would be little more than Resident Evil clones, as the gameplay is otherwise mostly identical. The art direction and audio direction and the well-thought-out horror set-pieces in each game are the things that really set them apart in my opinion.

This is partly why I feel warier about the series being outsourced than some other game series: this abstract, artistic angle is the sort of thing that different developers can have quite different takes on.

As a quick example, one of the monsters in an earlier (and discarded) version of Silent Hill Origins looked to me like it had walked straight out of a cheesy Hollywood zombie film; it was a mutant/zombie style monster that I’d say barely fitted the feel of the SH series at all. The person who designed it presumably didn’t think that, though.

I’d say that several successful outsourced games - the Metroid Primes and F-Zero GX, for example - have an easier ride in that they don’t have as much abstract and artistic baggage weighing them down.

Anyhow, on a related note, some more info and media for Silent Hill Origins has started turning up online since I posted this topic.[/quote]

That statement was for all epic games, in general. The story writer, art designers, and musicians are very key roles which, in most cases, cannot be replaced without altering the game series significantly. Programmers, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen, and really do not mean anything; therefore, they’re easily replaceable.

Do you want to see what happens when story writers and art designers decide to scrap a project and have someone else take up the series and start from scratch? Check out Resident Evil 1.5 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWpEE_5pDzQ

What could have been is always going to be greater than what is though, because your mind fills the gaps with intangible awesome instead of the crap or unworkable sections that probably would have ended up there if they’d finished it.

I suppose that’s true to an extent - however, the argument that the end product we all received was a watered down version of the original idea remains true. It makes you wonder how many times we’ve actually been jipped, and how many of the many, many bad games out there, could have actually been really good if the stupid suits didn’t stick their greedy, little noses where they didn’t belong in the first place.

With this in mind, I further support my stance on Hentai games being vastly superior to the rubbish which is currently being released on consoles/PCs; the reason for this is because Hentai games are made without trying to please the masses – and thank goodness for that because the masses are fucking retarded. I think the best part about Hentai games is that you get a wide range of goodies EVERY FRIDAY – meaning you don’t have to wait 3 fucking years for some stupid, mediocre console game to come out. Granted, interactivity is sacrificed in most cases, but what is lacking in interaction is made up for in STORY – which is what people should be playing games for in the first place. Oh, and plenty of Hentai games get outsourced, and even those tend to be bad at times, but I have played alot of good ones too.

Just look at all the goodies: {Warning, link contains adult content ~ Solo} getchu.com/categori/

Say what you want about the “suits,” but they are a necessary part to the whole process. Without the businessmen, there would be no one to actually pay the bills.

Since technology never stops advancing, you’d constantly have people wanting to upgrade their engines, add new areas/features, tweak this, change that… A game is never done. Just as a book, movie, picture, etc can always be improved, there is just a point where you have to say this is the best we can make it within the limits we have been given. Sure, sometimes those limits are ridiculous, but on a good portion of large-scale projects, the limits are reasonable and people must adhere to them.

As for your comments on hentai, without getting into a debate about the merits of hentai itself, I think people should be playing games for a blend of story and gameplay. If story is all you are looking for, read a book or watch a movie. They’re much cheaper and much more advanced in their storytelling styles and techniques. Games should be played for their interactivity - whether it’s interactivity for interactivity’s sake, or to interact with a story.

[quote=“Abadd”]Say what you want about the “suits,” but they are a necessary part to the whole process. Without the businessmen, there would be no one to actually pay the bills.

Since technology never stops advancing, you’d constantly have people wanting to upgrade their engines, add new areas/features, tweak this, change that… A game is never done. Just as a book, movie, picture, etc can always be improved, there is just a point where you have to say this is the best we can make it within the limits we have been given. Sure, sometimes those limits are ridiculous, but on a good portion of large-scale projects, the limits are reasonable and people must adhere to them.

As for your comments on hentai, without getting into a debate about the merits of hentai itself, I think people should be playing games for a blend of story and gameplay. If story is all you are looking for, read a book or watch a movie. They’re much cheaper and much more advanced in their storytelling styles and techniques. Games should be played for their interactivity - whether it’s interactivity for interactivity’s sake, or to interact with a story.[/quote]

Books suck, especially nowadays where terrible pieces of literature, such as Harry Potter, are considered ‘great’. The same goes for movies – who wants to watch cliched, hollywood diatribe? The true beauty about videogames is that you get both an audio and video representation of what the storyteller is trying to get across. You do not have to use your imagination for basic details, such as what an environment looks like, or what a character looks like – or how another character interacts with another character. Books can’t properly portray that feeling, and neither can movies because human ‘acting’ is quite pathetic and phony. It’s too bad that most game developers have no clue, whatsoever, as to how to properly make use of this medium; they’ve had 30 years to improve the medium to the point where it is indistinguishable from a book or a movie, but they have failed royally – the technology has improved, but game design is still as bad as it was in the early 80s.

And before you go dissing Hentai games, Abadd, you really should go and play one. The stories are VERY good, mainly because they have to be, since there is little to no interaction at all. A good analogy of this phenomena is when someone loses their vision, and suddenly their hearing gets a a major boost because they now must rely on that particular sense to survive. Hentai games are the same – but if one must truly be technical, Hgames are really not games at all, but semi-interactive mangas with voice acting. I, personally, love Hgames - because not only do I get beautiful scenery and great sound, but I also have the option to get my rocks off at the same time. That’s pure bliss.

Oh, and I don’t know if you’ve noticed or not, but for the past two generations, console games have LOST interactivity; in fact, the original Super Mario Bros for the NES has more interactivity than ANY game on any console from 1998-present. That’s how bad game design has become and no one really realizes this because they’re being hypnotized by pretty special effects. What’s even more insulting is that some of these crappy cell phone games are more fun than any of this next-gen bullshit. How can you explain this?

Everything takes shape for some reason of course, but the point that “suits” are a necessary part of the process, while being completely valid in a vacuum, is rather unconnected to the actual issue of stifling creativity. Just because they may ‘need’ to be there doesn’t in any way ameliorate their guilt, if and when they are indeed guilty of gross interference with the creative flow. Such the case being hardly the exception I would say…

The only time an executive overseeing any artistic endeavor is ever not guilty… is when they are capable of truly suspending personal ego and viewing themselves as a servant of the process rather than it’s master. And that sort of person is very rare to find anywhere in life. It’s the exact same issue with politics, very very few of our supposed public servants are even capable of understanding the concept on a gut level.

Is this simply the way things have to be? Clearly it’s not the only way things can get done, take a look at the products of the BBC and American public broadcasting for an example of what can happen when the bottom line isn’t actually above all other concerns. I’m not anti-capitalism at all, but what started as a truly humanist experiment now embodies all the same oppressive elements of feudalism with, if anything, ultimately less in the way of natural checks and balances.

But I’m on a tangent…

In TV/Film/Games most breakout hits happen because they started under the radar, the product of people who are still hungry and idealistic. 99% of all actual progression starts as the wrong way to do something. As I’ve said before, videogaming is still in it’s infancy. At least film executives are prone to admit that no one really knows how to predict a “hit”, and so the most successful executives know to ride the filmmakers and not the films. Once again, things will only really get better when the names of the actual talent mean more than the production labels, across the board.

That said, there’s no way to ever remove the Lowest Common Denominator factor from entertainment, and no reason to ever try. But there’s a thin line between appealing to said factor, and outright pandering to mediocrity.

Who knows, maybe that’s the real X-Factor in Hentai games that lets in something Kadmose can actually respect, that they’re about as shamelessly ‘lowest’ as you can get. It’s sort of like being a good whore… if you’re a whore there’s really no room for pretension, and no one really expects anything more than the basics, so anything above and beyond the call is necessarily out of personal expression.

The more I read, watch, and play various stories, the more I’m finding that the novel is my preferred form of storytelling. I really can see where you’re coming from about books not being able to portray the authors’ vision down to the last detail - there is only so much that the written word can tell. But in many ways, this is one of the great beauties of storytelling. If we know every single detail, there is no room for filling in the blanks, which are where many of the interesting theories and discussions come from on boards like this one.

Another great thing that the novel does is tell the story from a character’s eyes. I know movies and games do this too, but you don’t find many games/movies that explain what the POV character is thinking.

I doubt Harry Potter is the sort of story you’re looking for. What exactly are you looking for in a story that most books don’t offer you, but games do?

Read more books.

Watch more movies.

This sounds more akin to movies and animations than video games, what your telling me is, instead of you imagining scenarios etc, “they” imagine it for you? It’s a book’s role to lodge a “bitmap” into the reader’s mind to create a more intimate and personal journey for the reader’s imagination. Something that video games and movies CAN’T do.

Again, watch more movies, read more books.

Subjected to click & stroke mechanics? No thanks.

Wow…

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
I doubt Harry Potter is the sort of story you’re looking for. What exactly are you looking for in a story that most books don’t offer you, but games do?[/quote]

I look for tragedy, depth, and most importantly, the villain MUST win - because good is dumb. There are quite a few stories by Arthur C. Clark, Greg Bear, and Issac Asimov where the antagonist wins and causes massive amounts of destruction – but I’ve read them all; unfortunately, modern day authors try to do it too sometimes, but their writing styles are quite pathetic.

To be honest, I almost became a writer myself many ages ago, and wrote a book titled, “Death Comes Beyond Chaos”, but I never had it published. The story is about a man so fed up with physical reality, that he tries to find a way to destroy his own soul/consciousness so that he could end the vicious cycle of reincarnation. In the end, he succeeds, but at the expense of the universe, itself. What started out as a self-less act, innocent and pure, involuntarily and unknowingly becomes corrupted and selfish. THIS is the kind of material I look for in books, movies, and videogames – but they fail to deliver almost every time.

I’ll agree with most of that, although there have been some authors of recent years that have written some remarkable pieces of fictional literature (although they’re not necessarily sci-fi “post-apocalyptic” based so…) What else do you read (a little off topic I know)?

But is this not based on the narration of a video game more so than the game design of a video game? It’s somewhat limited wouldn’t you say? I’m all for a great story in a video game but if I don’t have anything that requires challenge/sacrifice and consequence in my actions within the virtual world then I’m left with something that is pretty much like a H-game, except with no porn…

[quote=“Elohim”]

I’ll agree with most of that, although there have been some authors of recent years that have written some remarkable pieces of fictional literature (although they’re not necessarily sci-fi “post-apocalyptic” based so…) What else do you read (a little off topic I know)? [/quote]

I’ve read the entire Wheel of Time series (which has become very stupid and cliche), the Death Gate Cycle series (bleh!), and many other scifi/fantasy books that are standalone like Voyager III and Childhood’s End. Needless to say, I haven’t really ever read a book that made me say, ‘holy shit, this is awesome’ - and this is because very few people take risks and think outside the box. So much for independent thought, eh?

It would seem that the main problem with you and books Kadamose is that you’ve got an incredible narrow remit on what makes a book good (your very specific set of plot rules) and you’ve decided that you’ve exhausted the supply of good books in the world, and everything else is crap. If you go in with that kind of attitude, you’ve already decided that the book won’t be worth your time before you’ve even read the blurb on the back so it doesn’t really have a fighting chance, does it?

As for your comment on “Hollywood diatribe” - don’t watch Hollywood films, maybe? America isn’t the only place on the planet that makes films.