1up is doing a cover of Sega/Camelot’s SHINING FORCE and it’s impact on gaming as well as reviewing the new version NEO which they seem to like…a lot.
I guess it good to see a historic account of Sega’s classic RPG series.
Have you not been to shiningforcecentral.com ? The place to go, for all the Shining! I know for a fact that Geoffrey and I have very separate views on Neo, but if you’re interested I’m happy to share my take on the game. 
Excerpted from 1up.com’s interview with SF Neo’s chief designer:
We wouldn’t want a game that’s “restricted” to a great combat system like the previous Shining Force games now, would we, you moron?
Obviously, Neverland were either too incompetent to take Shining Force further into the 3D realm (Camelot will have a good laugh at this), or merely wanted to stick to the games they make best. In other words, restrict the series to their own personal vision of it.
Sega killing my favourite series of games has more or less killed my faith in Sega. Maybe I’ll buy a GameCube for Fire Emblem after all, which according to the Shining series’ project manager, Tadashi Takezaki, is the type of game that doesn’t belong on a home console because it couldn’t possibly hope to take full advantage of its power like an Action/RPG would. Never before have I read such nonsensical BS.
Goonboy has been posting at SFC for some time now. Unfortunately, the community there died a long time ago (no thanks to Sega’s poor handling of this series).
Chris and Parn are also long-time posters there.
Kimini, who doesn’t know Geoffrey’s opinion on Shining Force Neo? You only need to mention the letters “S” and “F” in succession when he suddenly springs out from behind the pot plant in the corner to whinge and whine like no other man can. Sorry, Geoffrey, but it is true.
As for myself, I am willing to judge Neo on its merits as a game - and, the critical opinion appears to concur, it’s a very good one - rather than get wound up into an incoherent corkscrew of angst over a single word in the title.
[quote=“Robert Frazer”]Who doesn’t know Geoffrey’s opinion on Shining Force Neo? You only need to mention the letters “S” and “F” in succession when he suddenly springs out from behind the pot plant in the corner to whinge like no other man can (sorry Geoffrey, but it is true.).
As for myself, I am willing to judge Neo on its merits as a game - and, the critical opinion appears to concur, it’s a very good one - rather than get wound up into an incoherent corkscrew of angst over a single word in the title.[/quote]
My issues with SF Neo stem from more than a mere name. SF Neo was a game that hoped to jump on the Action/RPG bandwagon while hoping to cash in on SF’s brand recognition. Nothing more, nothing less.
If this game sells well, it will only encourage Sega to make a sequel. Is that what you really want?
Geoffrey, you ARE just moaning about the name. If it was “Shining Wotsit”, it wouldn’t be “Force” and thus your ever-so-precious sacred cow would be intact.
If, when it eventually arrives on UK shores, I play it, enjoy it, and appreciate that it is an intelligent, sound, solid and worthy title - then by all means, bring on a sequel!
Also, if it’s just an attempt to “cash-in” as you perpetually insist it being, why has a great deal of effort evidently been invested in the game to produce a title that the critics, both in Japan and America, have welcomed instead of just dashing it off?
It’s hardly a bandwagon either, Geoffrey - or if it is, it’s been one that’s rolling on for more than a decade. Popular A-RPGs have been around for quite a while, you know.
I can’t help but feel that your rabid opposition to Neo derives more from a holier-than-thou disdain for the A-RPG genre than anything that’s actually substantive. Just because you don’t pin a general’s stars to your chest in an A-RPG doesn’t mean that you switch off your brain.
Also, have you considered the fact that Sega called it “Shining Force NEO” instead of simply “Shining Force”? If it was the latter, they’d be genuinely rebooting the franchise and erasing all they’ve gone before, but why can’t you accept the alternative explanation that by appending “Neo” that Sega are recognising an alternative strand, and not a replacement one?
Not to to speak for Geoffrey, not necessarily to excuse him either but…
In this instance I can fully understand the feeling at least. It’s less about the proliferation of Action/RPG’s than about the scarcity of Tactics/RPG’s. And there’s already precedent for the whole “Shining Wotsit” being more expected, since Camelot previously had the good graces to name other non-tactics RPG’s something else?
We’ll have to wait and see if SF Neo represents the future of the Shining series. If it’s the game that kills Shining Force (regardless of however good it may be), then you’ll have to forgive me if it pisses me off to no end. If SF Neo is indeed the future of the series, then you’re more than welcome to it.
Action/RPGs have strayed from their Zelda roots now too, now focusing almost entirely on simplified hack ‘n’ slash gameplay, because as I have written before in the past, hardly anyone has the patience for anything else. That is a recent phenomenon with Diablo firmly paving the way for more of its ilk by bringing this sub-genre unto itself further and further into the public eye. And at what cost? Less and less turn-based RPGs (Interplay’s own long-awaited Fallout 3 was among the casualties). Instead of Shining Force IV, Sega decides to publish this piece of mass market trash instead. Bravo. The market isn’t so much to blame as Sega is for wanting to jump on the Diablo/Dynasty Warriors/Kingdom Hearts bandwagon when there’s still a market for simulation RPGs in Japan (especially) waiting to be tapped.
Why ressurect Shining Force, a brand that is not only (heretofore) synonymous with Strategy/RPGs but still carries some weight in Japan, only to recreate it (in Neverland’s image)?
Geoffrey claps half-heartedly, clearly unimpressed.
Back to World of Warcraft for me I think (until the new Fire Emblem, which ironically enough is everything SF Neo is not, arrives in England).
[quote]1UP: How was the overall experience of developing Neo Was it fun to work on the Shining license, and would you like to continue the Neo series We enjoyed it very much, so we most certainly would like to see more of this sort of game.
MT: I’ve been a fan of the Shining Series myself, and so I was very happy to have the chance to work on this latest installment. There was a lot of pressure, though, and there are still some things that I wish I’d had the chance to do that I didn’t get to. If I got the chance, I’d love to get to expand upon the Shining Force Neo name.[/quote]
That pretty much confirms my fears that if the same team get to work on a new Shining Force game, it will be Shining Force Neo 2, and not Shining Force IV. 
You know… Nintendo has a large and loyal fanbase for a reason… they keep releasing the games that their fanbase wants. This is why it continues to grow in size, and is something Nintendo can rely on.
Sega on the other hand, prefers to release games which they think will sell well, and if it happens to coincide with what the fans want, so much the better. Shining Force Neo happens to NOT be one of those games, and I’m going to sit back and watch this game sell like crap.
Buying it is support for a future of more Shining Force Neos. No thanks, I’m afraid.
Nintendo is currently airing Fire Emblem commercials on American television, for the record. Apparently Nintendo thinks there’s a market for it. I suppose we’ll see in a few months.
We wouldn’t want a game that’s “restricted” to a great combat system like the previous Panzer Dragoon games now, would we, you moron?
Easy there, Tamerlane. Think of your blood pressure.
Though I do agree that it IS possible to mangle a series. Besides, Sega isn’t the only company out there genre-bending series…serieses…their games.
[quote]You know… Nintendo has a large and loyal fanbase for a reason… they keep releasing the games that their fanbase wants. This is why it continues to grow in size, and is something Nintendo can rely on.
[/quote]
You know what, that’s all Nintendo have to rely on. They certainly haven’t done much to attract new business during the GameCubes tenure. I wish they’d experiment more, not less, as it’s these daring leaps that gave us Metroid, StarFox, Animal Crossing… I’m sick of all the rehashes and updates. Sega may not always get it right, but at least they try. Sometimes you get a Shenmue, sometimes you get an opinion-splitting SF Neo.
Personally, I’d give Neo about a 6/10. It’s above average, but not much more. Good fun though, if you like your Diablo/Baldurs Gate (console) style RPGs.
[off topic-ish]
Well, every Nintendo franschise will feel different from now on if only due to the Revolution’s controller.
Still, they are experimenting with more than that. Even the mighty Zelda is going to change radically, atleast gameplay wise. According to Nintendo atleast, the next GameCube Zelda is the last we see of Zelda as we know it.
The next Nintendo DS Zelda will be heavily using the touchscreen in order to manipulate objects around Link (they haven’t specified in what ways), and I assume this is the first step to a fully interactive Zelda for the Revolution…
I don’t think Sega experiments that much with their own series btw… Sonic, with some smart thinking, could have been just as big as Mario and have a huge range of different games that sell well and help Sega along in a big way…
[on topic]
I also don’t think SF Neo should be compared with Shenmue in any way in this discussion. Shenmue was a new franschise for which Sega was able to develop what they wanted without any fear of disapointing loyal fans of a series.
On the other hand, with the latest Shining Force, they first got people’s hopes up with its announcement and first media, then totally shot them down by announcing it’s an action RPG, and later on (I think) renaming it to Shining Force Neo possibly to undo some of the damage done.
Though a “Neo” at the end is definitely not enough to redeem them for what they have done to a franschise with a rather loyal fanbase.
What if Sega announced a next gen Panzer Dragoon Saga, only to later unveil it as a rather generic looking Action RPG, with a totally different storyline style (like the “Force” of Neo), and then have it renamed to Panzer Dragoon Saga Neo and talk in ways that make it sound like they believe it really is better than in the past. Would everyone here really be ok with it and have no hard feelings whatsoever?
If not, why should Shining Force fans be ok with what Sega has done in this case? Especially when they could have easily named it Shining ‘Whatever’ from START and have everyone happy.
But more than that, judging from various announcements and interviews, it’s not only a game that doesn’t live up to the fans’ expectations, it’s also an indication of where Sega is taking the series as a whole, which makes things look rather grim for people who were hoping they would one day play a real Shining Force game once again.
[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]Excerpted from 1up.com’s interview with SF Neo’s chief designer:
We wouldn’t want a game that’s “restricted” to a great combat system like the previous Shining Force games now, would we, you moron?
Obviously, Neverland were either too incompetent to take Shining Force further into the 3D realm (Camelot will have a good laugh at this), or merely wanted to stick to the games they make best. In other words, restrict the series to their own personal vision of it.
Sega killing my favourite series of games has more or less killed my faith in Sega. Maybe I’ll buy a GameCube for Fire Emblem after all, which according to the Shining series’ project manager, Tadashi Takezaki, is the type of game that doesn’t belong on a home console because it couldn’t possibly hope to take full advantage of its power like an Action/RPG would. Never before have I read such nonsensical BS.[/quote]
This is exactly what i’ve been saying for sometime about Sega. They don’t seem to take any reasonable care of their franchises specifically ones that’s been out of the public eye. While certain games series are “protected” by the big three within Sega, other games franchises are treated by Sega like a landlord letting their property to anyone with the bucks and sweet talk to get in the door only for them to ruin the house behind their landlord’s back.
This familiar pattern with the old Sega can be seen many times with the most recent being 3D games atrocious reworking of classic sega IP in the SEGA AGES:2600 series.
Someone said that Sega is taking an alternative route to the main SHINING FORCE series. But what’s the point when Camelot created an alternative route with the Shining series of games that didn’t have the tactic engine of SHINING FORCE,in the first place? The way that guy spoke about the prev ious games was of total disrespect and he was coming across as arrogant.Anyhow the game bombed in japan so the last laugh is on him.
Thankfully the SEGA AGES series has beeen retooled to show the classic sega games in it’s original glory under the Sega Sammy regime which also gives me hope that they will also straighten out the SHINING FORCE SERIES.
Sega has always been inspired by their peers as well as inspiring others. The fact that their former rival has seemingly not only embraced the SRPG format and the art style remiscent of the early Shining gamesbut the fact that FE outsold SFN ten to one in Japan may get the big wigs in Sega to order the developers to go back to the drawing board and release the game as it was intended and not used as a sick homage to Kingdom Hearts.
I have no doubt that is true. However, the sum total of RPGs on Gamecube is similar to around what gets released on PS2 every month in Japan. To put it simply, if you have 10 RPG fans on the Cube and only 1 game to buy, then of course that one game will sell better than the alternative - the same 10 RPG fans with a choice of 4 games will be spread out more across what’s available.
Please note that I’m not disputing the quality of FE, nor the fact that it is a far superior title to SFN, but I’m saying that comparing different console userbases buying choices is a bit “apples and oranges”.
SEGA…
It’s evident that no one here is likely to deny Sega has lost it’s way. But in many ways, the Sega Way has become a losing way. The desperate condition Sega has been in for the last 5 years is at least as much a result of being unable to change with the market as the result of any actual changes for the worse.
It’s very easy to look at individual decisions and failures and pass judgement on their integrity or lack thereof. But as we lament this near mythical titan of old, this philanthropic force once fostering such diversity and creativity, we should perhaps try to respect the full nature of the beast.
The very same short-sightedness and irresponsibility that got Sega where it is today, is intrinsically linked with the reckless abandon and open-mindedness that, well… got Sega where it was yesterday so to speak.
If Sega wasn’t a bunch of dumbasses, if they’d been more deliberate of course, more jealous of property, they really wouldn’t be Sega. They’d be… Nintendo more or less.
Your point might have been valid, if not for the fact that Sega could have just as easily made the game on GameCube instead. Given the RPG-starved userbase for that platform, it would have made more sense if you asked me.
Namco probably did a spit-take when they saw the sales figures for Tales of Symphonia in the US. Heh.
[quote=“Parn”]
Your point might have been valid, if not for the fact that Sega could have just as easily made the game on GameCube instead. Given the RPG-starved userbase for that platform, it would have made more sense if you asked me.
Namco probably did a spit-take when they saw the sales figures for Tales of Symphonia in the US. Heh.[/quote]
Agreed with Parn, If Sega was so desperate to relaunch SHINING FORCE as a big player in the growing crowd of RPG franchises then it would have been better if they had launched it on a platform where there were less RPGs than a platform that is spoilt for choice in RPGs. The sales alone would have made people notice.
Look at SPARTAN for instance. This title has actually sold better on the GC than it has on the other platforms it’s available on and that’s because there isn’t that many action style games on the NGC in the first place. If Sega had the foresight to release NEO on the NGC then it would have acheived the 200,000 sales target that that fool Tadashi Takezaki put on the game which it never acheived on the PS2. Since the Nintendo consumers were ALREADY familiar with the SHINING series due to the GBA titles,it was a no brainer to release the game for NGC. But as usual Sega shot themselves in the foot.
I agree with you both completely. Fancy buying a few wet fish (with “I’m stupid” written on the side) and walking round to Sega HQ to slap a few people in the face?