Sega Poll for Franchise Revival

SEGA
121

Every Sega system was better in some ways and inferior in others compared to it’s direct competition. I’m quite surprised that DC is the only one you seem to think isn’t directly inferior Abadd. Aside from the more powerful CPU, Genesis was also higher resolution than SNES, and it could draw 2 1/2 times as much sprite data to a display line as well, though not with the same flexibility.

Two fairly obscure games have always been my example for the relative strengths of the Saturn And PS, and I mean for 3D, Last Bronx and Tobal 2. Each system wouldn’t have a chance in hell of running the other game anywhere close to the same way. And while we never had many examples of it, the shading/lighting in games like Saga and NiGHTS is superior - subjectively, but it’s also mathematically more advanced according to one reference I read - to the innate shading capability of PS. To say nothing of the imaging flaws of PS, not that Saturn had none, but they were very different.

122

Haha… This is what happens when I make a black/white statement that is out of character for me.

Yes, I know that each Sega system had stronger points and weaker points than the competition. It was the same during the MS, Genesis, Saturn, and even DC days.

But, in the end, the competition’s strengths ended up being the key deciding factors. While the Genesis was a faster machine, the SNES’ graphical and sound capabilities (as seen in games like SF2 and MK) pushed it over the edge. The DC may have had better sound and texture compression than the PS2, but the PS2’s polygonal capabilities and general computation capabilities gave it the edge.

It’s like comparing the X360 to the PS3. The PS3’s processor is more advanced and capable than the X360, but the X360 has a much more advanced GPU.

(And TA - no way in hell the DC’s texturing capabilities were more advanced than the Xbox. The Xbox could do everything the DC could do, and much, much more. But yeah, the systems were almost 2 years apart, so it’s a bit unfair.)

123

I have to say the quality of the texture resolve on DC always seemed nicer to me than the XBOX nvidia process. And of course the always on AA and the VGA output - which is how I played for most of my DC time - really pushes the DC’s IQ score over the top for me.

124

Abadd are you playing this devils advocate again :slight_smile: :P.
I mean lets look at the facts right until 1995 the Mega Drive was out selling the Snes in the West , and meant that even in 1995 SEGA had the biggest market share in the West, so the superior spec of the Snes made little diff, it was all to do with the games and marketing .
I don?t get the point of MK , because the MD version sold better, the Snes version was closer but a lot of that was to do with Sculpted software ace work on 1 and II on the Snes, when then also worked on the 3rd version for the Mega Drive it was right up there with the Snes (well part from colours and sound) but certainly way better than Prope ports. And I actually thought the MD version of SF II was better, the character were that bit better and had more animation and the music was truer to the Arcade version than the Snes (which was almost too good quality) it lost out in the Sound samples I give you that .
But in the 16 bit days image and marketing was the key and why the Mega Drive up until 1995 kicked the Snes in to touch when it came to sales.

Also I never meant that the DC had better textures than the X-Box , just that some times not even the X-Box could beat the display and colour that came from the DC output when using VGA or RGB . Not seen many games with better textures than VO II on the X-Box , Sonic Adv on the DC looked had better textures than Sonic on the X-Box and the backgrounds on MSR were way better than those in PGR (more 3D and more detail) .

BTW it was 3 years :)The DC came out in Japan in Nov 1998, the X-Box wasn?t launched until November 2001 Which given the 6 months law in GPU is massive . And if the beter tech wins please explain to me why the X-Box couldn’t outsell the PS2 , or the Master system could’t outsell the NES.

Oh there’s a bit of devils advocate for you :slight_smile:

125

The Xbox came way too late. To beat something you have to compete with it, not try to get its leftovers when it’s already established. The master system I don’t know, I wasn’t “there”. Anyway, bigger doesn’t mean better as you seem to be thinking when you hear the “better” tech wins… Abadd probably meant the overall strengths of the console as a whole rather than a by the numbers approach but I guess he’d have to clarify that himself. And of course we all know marketing plays a big part as well.

126

Oh I don’t know the X-Box only came a year and abit after the PS2 , Lets remember the Mega Drive had over 2 years head start In Japan yet almost overnight the Snes kicked the MD and the PC Eng in to touch for sales and went on to get 90% of the Japanese market. The Master system came out after the NES , but in Europe and more so the UK when to on to get the better market share , and coming late hasn’t hurt the Wii which the way its going will overtake the 360 for sales.

I take the point about the overall strengths of a console , but apart from Arguably the CPU , the X-Box is better in every area than the PS2, yet it could never come close to its sales .

127

Sort of. It’s less about the numbers and more about hitting the right features. Dreamcast had online support at a time that people simply weren’t ready for it (and the implementation was shoddy). There was nothing wrong with GDROMs, per se, but people were ready for DVDs (PS2). Saturn had great 2D abilities at a time when people were increasingly interested in 3D.

And TA - damn, you’re right. I had the US Dreamcast launch date stuck in my head. Yarg! :stuck_out_tongue:

128

[quote=“Abadd”]Sort of. It’s less about the numbers and more about hitting the right features. Dreamcast had online support at a time that people simply weren’t ready for it (and the implementation was shoddy). There was nothing wrong with GDROMs, per se, but people were ready for DVDs (PS2). Saturn had great 2D abilities at a time when people were increasingly interested in 3D.

And TA - damn, you’re right. I had the US Dreamcast launch date stuck in my head. Yarg! :p[/quote]

Oh I think you are right about DVD, That really hurt the DC Combine that with the public and 3rd party having enough for SEGA after the failure of the 32X and Saturn really hurt SEGA, but in Japan for certain a DVD rive would have really helped , I?m not so sure in the USA market though .

Hostley mate, I think it was the 32X that cost the Saturn inthr West , it had nothing to do with 3D graphics and being hard to programme for (that never really hurt the PS2) . To me SEGA putting all its faith in the 32X and talking down the Saturn was comical suicide, as was to ask over ?60 per 32X game, With out the 32X I really think the Saturn would have been a strong number II in the West .

Btw I really didn?t want to be anal or geek about it, But I remember getting my DC back in late November 1998 , Oh what a feeling , what a Night :wink: . That?s the only reason why I remember it so well

129

Marketing that successfully sells the public on ‘magic’ performance expectations and an established dominance of mindshare was a one-two combo that makes your points superfluous Abadd.

130

Unfortunately, Abadd, even though people were ready for 3D, 3D was not ready for the world during the years of the PSX launch. The math vectors were a freaking mess and the resolution was WAY too low (which only displayed at 320x240 - half of a standard 480i TV’ resolution) – that’s too pathetic, and the games at the time certainly showed it. All of the cult hits for the PSX turned out to be 2D games in the end (SOTN, Lunar, Wild Arms etc etc). Case in point, 3D was not ready for the masses, and Sony is the only one to blame for basically ruining what could have been an awesome 32-bit war. As it stands now, however, the 16-bit war still remains the best to this day, and much of that praise can come from the fact that Sony wasn’t in the picture at that time.

Sony basically ruined the videogame industry, and that’s no exaggeration.

131

The Motorola CPU in the Genesis was more than twice as powerful as the one in the SNES with better sprite scaling capabilities (mainly because the misers at Nintendo took the cheapest route possible), and loved by our good old friends at EA because they were simply more familiar with it.

The Genesis’s software was just amazing. It was the PS2 of its time to be honest.

As for the Saturn, when the twin CPUs were synced up it had more processing muscle than the Playstation (and more RAM) but by the time people managed to do it, it was too late (compare the Saturn version of DOA with the PS one to see what I mean - both pushed each console to their limits). Sony had most of the media on its side by then. It’s safer to say the Saturn was a 2.5D console which is what Sega of Japan really wanted in the first place because there was still a huge market for 2D games at the time but they saw the 3D age coming so they hoped to bridge the gap. Sega’s arcade developers were more than familiar with dual processing as well (like Team Andromeda) unlike the rest of the world who weren’t quick to catch up.

I really hate the Saturn myths, because it was truly one of the best consoles ever made, despite some shortcomings.

132

Please can we stop blaming SONY for everything its getting so boring and its wrong . Certanillty there?s a case of it with regards to the DC, but not the 32Bit days , where it was SEGA and NCL making all the mistakes their selfs And to say SONY weren?t ready for 3D when at the time they had some of the best and cleanest 3D Hardware around at the time is ridiculous, It was SEGA and SEGA along that messed up what could have been a great 32Bit War.

Not instead we had the idiots at SEGA America and Europe talking down the Saturn with talk like ? We Don?t expect to sell many Saturn?s?, ?32X is the only 32bit mass market item? or so the so called great one Tom Kalinske would say, Or what about good old Barry Jafrato from SEGA Europe ? Mega 32 has been built to handle more polygons than the Saturn ? , which even a complete simpleton would know that wasn?t the case.
If that wasn?t enough, SEGA America and Europe put all their marketing budget and games development behind the 32X with the Saturn getting the leftovers So we had this lovely mixed message Saturn is ok but we don?t expect to sell many , and 32X is the way to.
Well if SEGA West had no confidences in the Saturn, how the hell did it expect it to sell it the user ???

Only for all this talk of massmarket for SEGA Europe then to have cheek to ask for ?170 for a 32X with no game , and then ?60 per game, so much for being mass market for the price of the 32X with a couple of games, one could have got the Saturn and saved money thanks to the CD based medium , Honestly you had complete morons running SEGA west at the time, then hen to make matters worse after the 32X turned out to be complete and utter flop we were in the ridiculous situation of SEGA America/Europe after taking down the Saturn every chance it got , now saying Oh we got it wrong in fact the Saturn is the only 32Bit mass market item and now you people that got a 32X or a PS need to buy that , Yeah Nice one Tom .

Thanks to baboons like Tom (might have done gerat inthe16 bit days, did anything but inthe 32bit war) , SEGA spent tons on 32X development and promotion at the cost of the Saturn . So instead of fighting the 32Bit war with a single platform , a single marketing budgets/message and games development , with had SEGA trying to back the Saturn, 32X, 32X CD , Mega Drive it was just ridiculous .
With out the 32X the Saturn USA /Pal launch would have been much better thanks to more funds and more importantly The Saturn having the likes of Doom , VR Deluxe and Star Wars (which all would have been better on the Saturn) to add to its launch line up, along with most of the 32X games 3rd parties started only to can after sh8t sales, even EA were going to give FIFA to SEGA 1st with the 32X, that would have been a massive bonus for the Saturn in the Europe , only as it turns out the Saturn was the last platform to get a Saturn game L. Oh if that wasn?t enough we get idiots like Bernie to make sure with his 5 start plan to kill the Saturn and send out a great message that SEGA couldn’t careless about the people that bought a Saturn (buy a N64 or PS instead if u want games) Hey its SEGA and when our hardware fails we shut up shop and tell the user wait for our next hardware , it will be diff next time, trust us rolls eye?s

133

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]The Motorola CPU in the Genesis was more than twice as powerful as the one in the SNES with better sprite scaling capabilities (mainly because the misers at Nintendo took the cheapest route possible), and loved by our good old friends at EA because they were simply more familiar with it.

The Genesis’s software was just amazing. It was the PS2 of its time to be honest.

As for the Saturn, when the twin CPUs were synced up it had more processing muscle than the Playstation (and more RAM) but by the time people managed to do it, it was too late (compare the Saturn version of DOA with the PS one to see what I mean - both pushed each console to their limits). Sony had most of the media on its side by then. It’s safer to say the Saturn was a 2.5D console which is what Sega of Japan really wanted in the first place because there was still a huge market for 2D games at the time but they saw the 3D age coming so they hoped to bridge the gap. Sega’s arcade developers were more than familiar with dual processing as well (like Team Andromeda) unlike the rest of the world who weren’t quick to catch up.

I really hate the Saturn myths, because it was truly one of the best consoles ever made, despite some shortcomings.[/quote]

Oh I agree the Mega Drive was the PS of its time, which literary hundreds of good games , with ever genre covered much like the PS/PS2
|Sure the Snes might have had more what one could call AAA games, but for every good Snes game there were at least 10 good Mega Drive games When it came to shooters and sports games the Mega Drive outclassed the Snes by a HUGE margin .

I liked the Snes more as a games machine myself (NCL were in a class of thier own in those days) , but like the Saturn I hate this myth that it was somehow underpowered , when back in 88 the Mega Drive was the best kick ass hardware around , and there is nothing on the Snes that comes close to Streets Of Rage II , Red Zone , Adv Of Batman and Robin or more so Thunder Force IV (plays the Snes version of Thunder Force for a bloody good laugh) . That part of SEGA problem in that in mose cases it was 1st with its Hardware , not so much SEGA never pushed the boat out with the spec’s . One would expect with the Snes coming out 2 years later to have better hardware and to a point it . But NCL cost cutting came into play , it had fantastic 2D Hardware (better than the Neo Geo) all held back thanks to a poor CPU .

As for the Saturn yes it had drawbacks , but it wasn?t has bad as people loved to make out (just cover to back the PS more, as EGA were lossing it) . Play Virtual Cop and SEGA Rally and tell me this machine wasn?t made with 3D in mind . I see people go about Assembly , the fact that it drew quads instead of triangles, lacked transparencies .

That?s a Laugh Model 3 drew it words in Quads , and that?s one of the best 3D machines ever made, The early version of Model 1 and II used Assembly and lacked transparencies effects in Hardware , which is one of the reasons Model 2 SEGA Rally had a mesh effect on the Car windows and the Team didn?t put in a Snow track , people going to call the Model 2 board rubbish at 3D ??

I guess the Really problem was the Twin CPU and the fact they was delay as both could work in true parallel , or access memory at the same time .
But to SEGA with most of its boards using at least 2 CPU most cases 3 CPU this wasn?t so much for a problem .
I remember a great interview with Mev Dinc: of Vivid Image being asked why the Saturn version of Street Racer looked so much better (running in higher Res , more effects ect ) And d he said at 1st he used C and the Saturn version looked rubbish in comparison and run slowwwwww , but his Team spend the next 3 months studding Saturn and changed to Assembly and the results speck for their selfs .
The Saturn version destroys the PS version, much like DOA on the Saturn . Like Mev said the Saturn was powerfull Hardware just to the best out of it, one couldn?t port across PS engines made in C, One had to code to the metal and use Assembly

134

If the Saturn had been top dog the same way PS2 was, we would have seen an equivalent refinement of tech and increase in the results as can be seen between first and last gen PS2 standards. I have no doubt of that at all.

And to put it simply TA, I think your point is pretty much that both Sega and Nintendo served the 32-bit race to Sony. It had nothing to do with the innate potential of the machines, Saturn and N64 were both significantly more powerful, in theory, than the PS. But the Playstation did what it did very easily, and it was significantly less expensive for the consumer, and just as importantly, for the developers. That’s one thing people really like to forget about, having the ‘right’ price point should not be underrated.

It’s ironic, and entirely predictable, that Sony should self inflict the exact same wound that they took advantage of to gain their console presence in the first place.

135

The Saturn was an amazing machine, and I have the devkit to prove it. If the parrallel CPUs were used to their full potential, we could have seen games for the Saturn which were very comparable to Grandia II for the DC. The main drawback with the Saturn is that the texture and video compression is HORRIBLE, but, as I said, it was never intended to be a 3D system. Despite these rather severe bottlenecks, one could still easily produce a game that could completely outmatch both the N64 and the PSX. Unfortunately, most developers at the time weren’t willing to invest the kind of time and effort needed to create a such a game…and thus, the demise of the Saturn was inevitable.

But, even though the Saturn was unsuccessful in financial terms, it was a huge success in regard to the games, and is still reveered by many as the best console of all time. Personally, I think it’s the second best console of all time; first place definitely goes to NEC’s Turbo Grafix-16/PC-Engine, which severely outclassed both the Genesis and the SNES on all fronts.

136

How does having a dev kit prove the Saturn could outclass the systems you mentioned? Now if you can back that up by providing a tech demo that will run @ full speed on the Saturn and really outclass anything seen on the N64 or PSone and of course do that in game-like conditions and not only with clever art direction but by raw processing power then I may agree it is a possibility…

Still, nothing even Sega managed to create could outclass the likes of Ocarina of Time or even Mario 64, a launch title. Sure those games have far from perfect graphics but the amount of on-screen content, the view distance, the complexity of the worlds is not even reached by the best areas of PDS if we exclude the factor “art direction” which should be excluded when we discuss a system’s power and potential.

I think Sonic Jam’s 3D section came as close as the system could do but we can hardly call that game-conditions anyway as there was no AI whatsoever included for example.

137

Well you’re right the N64 had in some ways better 3D Hardware, but sucked when it came to texures and while you can bring up Mario 64 (still for my money the best looking N64 game) You name me one fighter onthe N64 than came close to VF II or Last Bronx onthe Saturn, most of the N64 racers were miles off SEGA Rally graphics too , and not a single N64 game run in the Saturns High Res 720X480 , so at times even in 3D the Saturn did better than the PS and N64, just play Duke onthe N64 and the Saturn version

In fact most PS and Saturn games had better textures than N64 games , The N64 had the benefit of having more effects to hand , but when it came to textures it sucked . To me when it came to texures the Saturn was far better than the PS and N64

138

[quote=“Parn”]Your attempts to play the victim is laughable at best. You insulted me first, remember? You take offense to the word “faggot” being used after labeling me stupid three times in a row? Apparently bigotry is OK so long as you don’t use words that offend minorities.

Of course name-calling isn’t a tantrum. It’s part of what makes a tantrum, dipshit. I said something that displeased you and you weren’t getting your way, so you resorted to name-calling. Sure, I’m just as guilty now since I’m now calling you words like fuckface, but I’m not the one playing innocent, claiming to be worried about how the site looks to onlookers. YOU started the insults, and YOU turned the discussion into a flamewar. It is only recently that I have started flinging your insults right back at you, except with a hundred times the ferocity, because that’s how I deal with things. I overreact, it’s what makes me, me. At least I’m honest.[/quote]

Hahaha. I’m hardly playing the victim and its really not my fault if you don’t understand a simple thing explained to you but you see when you replied to my topic you didn’t do it because you were geniunely wanted to know something you were doing it to bully me into giving an answer YOU
wanted. You were delibritly being obtuse and i responded in kind. I don’t respond well to bullies and you got what you deserve especially when the original point was sorted out well before you decided to participate. You the one who wanted this flame war as you put it my mistake was to bite on something that wasn’t worth it.

And now you accuse me having the tantrum well i didn’t i just called you a name,Your the one who went over the top with your “imaginary” post and never stuck to the actual debate. That’s a tantrum.
Oh and if you noticed i stopped the name calling as you put it a while back its you who carried on with a lot of dubious words. Your reaction to it says a lot about you than it does about me for example…

[quote=“Parn”]Three days ago, you said this:

…and now you’re complaining about off-topic heated debate after contributing to the problem?

I’ll stop flaming when Goonboy quits telling me that I’m too stupid to understand his point when it’s a two-way street, and I could just as easily say that he’s too stupid to understand mine. I make wiseass comments on a consistent basis, sure… but I didn’t start throwing insults until he started telling me that I’m basically too stupid to read, over and over. Fuck him.

Since we’re in the business of talking down to each other, how about this, Goonboy. I used to work on and fix multimillion dollar radar equipment at my previous job, am currently coding DoD software, and I’m close to finishing two associates degrees and will be pursueing a bachelor’s degree afterwards. What the fuck do YOU do, smart guy?[/quote]

A obvious chip on your shoulder.You feel the need to prove to me that you are not stupid by telling me parts of your life story? It just indicates i’m not the only person that has ever called you stupid and more importantly you have developed a complex about it.

And i don’t see calling someone a faggot and calling someone stupid as being the same thing. I mean who admits to being stupid? Are you saying you are offended because there is a race of stupid people out there? You campaigning for stupid people rights? Calling someone a faggort whether they are gay or not is obviously going to affect people of that persuation if they happen to come here or are already m,embers of this forum while calling someone stupid isn’t apart from the individual being called it since nobody thinks that they are stupid.

139

And maybe thats why I don’t really like this place.

140

TA, like you said, “at times” the Saturn did better than the N64. However, a single example of the N64 doing better than the Saturn is enough to show which system is more powerful, even if the developers did not make use of it 100% of the time. I mean, N64 got even less support than the Saturn did so let’s not go there…