Sega Poll for Franchise Revival

[Abadd]

You betray a double standard now, because gaming forums are simply another control group. And any implied arguments for them being less valuable, as such, than the ‘professional’ reviews, are necessarily greatly subjective.

Actually, it is not a control group. There is no consistency in how games are rated on forums (I’m talking about scores). The majority of user scores on sites like Gamefaqs are either 10 or 1 (a bit of a hyperbole, but you get my point). While the exact meaning of a score of 5 from any given site will differ from site to site, a 5 on a specific site will always mean the same thing. However, on a user review site, one user may give something a 5 to mean it sucks, another may give it a 5 to mean it’s average. This evens out through consistency with media reviews, but with user reviews, there is no predictability.

With that and with the subsequence of that argument you present an assumption that the “official” reviews are (relatively) impartial, and again, in general terms it is a valid assumption. My argument is that in this specific example there is specific evidence of partiality.

I did not say they are impartial, only that they are the most subjective due to the context of the reviews. I do not take media review scores to represent the overall opinions of gamers, but use them instead as a abject score of the overall quality (if such a thing can be defined) of a game. There is a fine line.

Another perfectly valid general anecdote there, but once again I need to thank you for helping me make my point. That shows just how much hype alone can do for a piece of crap like SoE. MP is a very different situation because, in the first place it wasn’t broken and unfinished, and therefore it wasn’t blasted in the reviews.

Well, I never argued that hype doesn’t help. What I argued was that MP’s hype was reinforced by the quality of the game, and the subsequent positive word of mouth. Had word of mouth been negative, sales would have rapidly declined, and the sequel would have not sold well. That is not the case. You took my quote out of context, as I stated one of the criteria of judging a game’s success is sales over a longer period of time, and the sustainability of the brand.

The anomaly you call is why I phrased it that way in the first place. My viewpoint has nothing to do with Metroid Prime’s success in general terms, or any claim that it’s a worthless game, it’s that it does not belong in the rarrified air those scores would seem to indicate. There’s a difference between a game that may be a “big hit” and a game that’s a hit and strikes a chord as being legendary as well. That anomaly you talk about is the flip side of my anomaly, as in, Metroid Prime is NOT that kind of hit.

OK, no, that’s pretty well BS. Another attempt to shoehorn other examples into the argument. The games you mention there, as well as others, fully qualified as “system sellers” for the platform, and 2 of them were launch titles.

Whether or not something is a launch title does not change the fact that there was more than usual hype building up to their respective launches. People used Halo as a justification for the Xbox. People used Zelda as a justification for the N64. What defines something as a system seller? Is it a game that people buy a system for? If that’s the case, then even Metroid Prime counts, as the Gamecube received a not-insignificant boost to sales (at least in the US) when the game released.

Of the 3 platforms that finished the race, Gamecube was the loser, and while it certainly had games that sold the system, it really never did get that full blown, great white hope “system seller” title. The biggest titles became reasons to feel good about having a Gamecube, rather than reasons to buy one. XBOX and N64 were never in that same boat.

The N64 “lost” to the PlayStation… what makes the Gamecube’s situation any different? The best selling games on Gamecube sell just as much as the best sellers on Xbox (with the exception of Halo, of course). And while I’m too lazy to look up the exact numbers, the number of hit titles on both platforms is fairly comparable. Not sure how you made that distinction.

But the biggest thing for me at this point, is to remind you that it was you who split this issue in the first place.

Actually, I never split any issue. I just clarified that you can’t dismiss Metroid as an example, as it is clearly a good example of a game developed in the west that was a proper extension of an existing IP.

So yeah, it’s just the double standard that grates on me Abadd. The recurring pretense that your arguments are less subjective, by implication all of them. There is general validity in everything you have said, but applied to the specifics of this argument, the majority of those principles just fall under the auspices of “DUH!”.

I have tried to explain above why it is not a double standard, but simply a view of the success of a game from as objective a viewpoint as can be achieved. When judging whether or not you would be personally interested in a title, user reviews are completely valid reference material. You can pick and choose which reviews seem to best match your own personal tastes and use them as reference.

However, that is tailoring the usefulness of reviews to your own needs. In order to have an objective “bird’s eye view” of a game, you need to use a structured system of judgement criteria. In that respect, user reviews are not as reliable as the media review system in place.

I understand that you are speaking about personal opinion, but I simply wanted to clarify that personal opinion cannot be used in place of abject observation when making blanket statements. We’re simply talking about two different things on two different levels… I completely agree with you about your opinions and whatnot (I feel the same way, for example, about games like FFX. All the “objective” materials would suggest that it’s a fantastic game - but I simply don’t like it), and while this is the internet so I understand there is futility in this, but I feel that when debating about generalized ideas, one should try to be as scientific as possible (I know you don’t think I am, but I really don’t know how to answer that.)

[The_Ancient]

OK… I used the control group reference against your (by implication absolute) dismissal of gaming forums as data, not to argue against your exact use of the principle. Since the substance of your point seemed to be that forums aren’t an accurate gage of overall opinion. The substance of my point being that neither are “official” reviews. They both qualify as special interest groups. And you’re once again obfuscating things by implying a parallel I never made, I don’t care about user scores, I’m concerned with opinions. I understand that is your argument, that this is not scientific, but I never remotely claimed it was.

I did not take the SoE anecdote out of context at all, you seem to just be agreeing with what I actually said anyway… Metroid Prime isn’t a piece of crap, State of Emergency is. But that seems to be the only real point it has as a parallel, to prove that MP isn’t a bad game, which again, I never said it was. It’s just not phenomenal, as the “official” reviews would lead one to believe.

In the total market context of the 32-bit generation, PS was the winner, N64 was the also ran, and Saturn the loser. My point for mentioning those as launch titles has nothing to do with the success of the games, it’s that both the platforms had their wholly ratified excuse right from the beginning. Of course Gamecube had some games that spiked it’s sales, which again leads to a point that serves my argument, it was almost always just spikes. Gamecube’s situation was certainly similar to N64 in that both were defined by the conspicuous separation of ‘hits’ and ‘misses’. Which is what makes GC very different from XBOX, it was generally only the ‘hits’ that sold much at all. And I know that you know my general point here, don’t quibble, you aren’t the only one allowed to argue in generalities OK?

I don’t believe that it is so clear that MP is a “proper” extension of an existing IP obviously.

And I know damn well that there is no scientific way I can prove that, I also know that while sales data and review scores may have scientific value, they have very little relevance, scientific or otherwise, against the assertion as such.

[Kadamose]

The main problems with games developed from the West is that the artstyle is generally pathetic, the gameplay is generally always through a first person perspective, and there are generally ALOT of bugs within the code (this is due to Western developers being less disciplined than those in the East; it’s not just laziness either - you could almost say that Western coders are unqualified to code - this is FACT)

The questions people should be asking is: Are Western developers capable of creating games like Okami and Panzer Dragoon Saga? The answer is a resounding NO. You can blame that one on culture, discipline, and genetics.

And yes, Metroid Prime was a really bad game that literally siphoned the charm of the original series and buried it in a hole somewhere.

[Pedro_The_Hutt]

The main problems with games developed from the West is that the artstyle is generally pathetic, the gameplay is generally always through a first person perspective, and there are generally ALOT of bugs within the code (this is due to Western developers being less disciplined than those in the East; it’s not just laziness either - you could almost say that Western coders are unqualified to code - this is FACT)

Whuh? So you mean that games like Monkey Island, Theme Hospital, Morrowind, Starcraft, Knights of the Old Republic, Splinter Cell, Prince of Persia and many more are all lousy glitch riddled first person perspective games with pathetic artstyles? Get real. >.>;; That’s the harshest generalisation I’ve read all month. All of the aforementioned games rank from good to great (if you ask me), have little to no noticeable glitches, and certainly have likeable enough artstyles. European and American developed games can be just as good as japanese hits like Zelda, Metal Gear and Final Fantasy, and some japanese games are rather lousy too. Neither region is better or worse at developing games per default.

And yes, Metroid Prime was a really bad game that literally siphoned the charm of the original series and buried it in a hole somewhere.

Whuh?? I got myself Metroid Prime all cheap like a while back and I found it very enjoyable, it almost literally plays like a first person shooting Zelda. XD And that in my opinion is by no means a bad thing. So I don’t see how MP is a “really bad” game, granted, I’m no long time Metroid fan, but I think it’s a great enough game in it’s own right.

[Parn]

Morrowind

I’m going to stop you right there, on that one. Morrowind became increasingly buggy the further you got into it. My brother’s favorite feature was his save game at a point that for some reason, kept making his Xbox lock up no matter what he’d do, forcing him to have to start the game all over from scratch to play.

[Light_Wing]

Kadamose- MP is a sucess to the series. Like Resident Evil 4, it was criticized for being very different to the series, but still, it was a huge sucess. Same thing with MP.

As for Heretic Agnostic and Abadd…Gets a dictionary and starts
flipping pages of high vocab

And hey, aren’t we off-topic?

[Kadamose]

[quote=“Pedro The Hutt”]Whuh? So you mean that games like Monkey Island, Theme Hospital, Morrowind, Starcraft, Knights of the Old Republic, Splinter Cell, Prince of Persia and many more are all lousy glitch riddled first person perspective games with pathetic artstyles? Get real. >.>;; That’s the harshest generalisation I’ve read all month. All of the aforementioned games rank from good to great (if you ask me), have little to no noticeable glitches, and certainly have likeable enough artstyles. European and American developed games can be just as good as japanese hits like Zelda, Metal Gear and Final Fantasy, and some japanese games are rather lousy too. Neither region is better or worse at developing games per default.
[/quote]

With the games you listed, Starcraft is the ONLY game worthy of a highly honorable mention (a game which I religiously play to this day) - the others you mentioned (Splinter Cell - lol) are exactly what most american developers create…I mean, how many Call of Duty games can one make in a single lifetime? Sorry, but the West just doesn’t have enough spunk to make a good game - as I said, it lacks history, discipline, ‘education’, and an overall sense of direction. Is it any wonder why most sane people tend to avoid the Made in USA label?

You remember a crappy american game called Secret of Evermore for the SNES? That’s EXACTLY the current mindset of the West - and it’s not surprising that this rather narrow, simplistic perspective on game development hasn’t changed all these years.

Granted, there are always exceptions to the rule - there always are. But finding those exceptions is like digging for gold in a pyrite mine.

[Al3xand3r]

Well, no matter what games he brought as examples you would say they are shit because that’s just you, you claim you’ve played every single game out there even though you hated every single game out there which makes you some sort of masochist if you force yourself through horrible experiences like that just to have some forum rant material.

Still, he brought down at least one of the opinionated myths you tried to claim as fact by posting about many titles which are not first person shooters. The west, (and that’s not only the Americas by the way), has a long tradition of RTS, TBS, RPG, Adventure and Simulation (and many sub genres of this) titles. It’s totally stupid to even consider they only make FPS and anything else is the exception to some rule.

As for criticising the sequel mania, I do believe that for any western franschise that has “too many sequels” you can name, one can mention a Japanese series with double that (of course with exceptions ;). Since when is having 2 sequels (Call of Duty) an excess?

[Kadamose]

[quote=“Al3xand3r”]Well, no matter what games he brought as examples you would say they are shit because that’s just you, you claim you’ve played every single game out there even though you hated every single game out there which makes you some sort of masochist if you force yourself through horrible experiences like that just to have some forum rant material.

Still, he brought down at least one of the opinionated myths you tried to claim as fact by posting about many titles which are not first person shooters. The west, (and that’s not only the Americas by the way), has a long tradition of RTS, TBS, RPG, Adventure and Simulation (and many sub genres of this) titles. It’s totally stupid to even consider they only make FPS and anything else is the exception to some rule.

As for criticising the sequel mania, I do believe that for any western franschise that has “too many sequels” you can name, one can mention a Japanese series with double that (of course with exceptions ;). Since when is having 2 sequels (Call of Duty) an excess?[/quote]

Well, considering the US, Mexico, and Canada are about to merge into one country, yes, the generalization is a correct one.

And I’m not exaggerating when I say I’ve played 90% of the games out there (why do you think I pirate?) - that does NOT mean I complete these games, however…I only experience them, and if I don’t like what I see (which is what happens most of the time) then I simply abandon it. You would not believe the shit I’ve played – it almost makes me wonder why these developers even bother. Unfortunately, out out of the deluge of material out there, there are only a few games like Okami and PDS which do not insult the intelligence or the senses; unfortunately, game companies make a habit of disbanding teams which make beautiful, intelligent material because the goal is not to allow people to think or indulge in artistic splender: no, the goal is to dumb down the masses (which they have successfully done several times over)

Back to the argument at hand - name three good games from the ‘West’ that were absolutely legendary (with the exception of Starcraft) - I bet you can’t name any.

[Light_Wing]

[quote=“Kadamose”]
And I’m not exaggerating when I say I’ve played 90% of the games out there (why do you think I pirate?) - that does NOT mean I complete these games, however…I only experience them, and if I don’t like what I see (which is what happens most of the time) then I simply abandon it. You would not believe the shit I’ve played – it almost makes me wonder why these developers even bother. Unfortunately, out out of the deluge of material out there, there are only a few games like Okami and PDS which do not insult the intelligence or the senses; unfortunately, game companies make a habit of disbanding teams which make beautiful, intelligent material because the goal is not to allow people to think or indulge in artistic splender: no, the goal is to dumb down the masses (which they have successfully done several times over)

Back to the argument at hand - name three good games from the ‘West’ that were absolutely legendary (with the exception of Starcraft) - I bet you can’t name any.[/quote]

Halo, World of Warcraft, and Half-Life, you retarded idiot

[Al3xand3r]

Baldur’s Gate, Warcraft, Elite, Freespace, Ultima, Ultima Underworld, Ultima Online, X-Com, Civilization, Mechwarrior, Sid Meier’s Pirates!, Thief, Homeworld, Falcon, Fallout, System Shock, Deus Ex, Total War, tons and tons more. And of course the titles I do mention are more than they seem if you count because most of these have at least one worthy sequel (perhaps one or two not so worthy as well but that’s besides the point).

Then again I don’t know why I bother responding to you, you responded to nothing I peviously said and your reply here will be something along the lines of “all these titles are boring and none of them are as good as PDS”. Still, the fact remains they are legendary even if you can personally claim you hated all of them just to back up your nonexistent point.

[Kadamose]

[quote=“Light Wing”]

[quote=“Kadamose”]
And I’m not exaggerating when I say I’ve played 90% of the games out there (why do you think I pirate?) - that does NOT mean I complete these games, however…I only experience them, and if I don’t like what I see (which is what happens most of the time) then I simply abandon it. You would not believe the shit I’ve played – it almost makes me wonder why these developers even bother. Unfortunately, out out of the deluge of material out there, there are only a few games like Okami and PDS which do not insult the intelligence or the senses; unfortunately, game companies make a habit of disbanding teams which make beautiful, intelligent material because the goal is not to allow people to think or indulge in artistic splender: no, the goal is to dumb down the masses (which they have successfully done several times over)

Back to the argument at hand - name three good games from the ‘West’ that were absolutely legendary (with the exception of Starcraft) - I bet you can’t name any.[/quote]

Halo, World of Warcraft, and Half-Life, you retarded idiot[/quote]

Halo = hyped up CRAP
World of Warcraft = hyped up SHIT
Half Life = hyped up and extremely buggy bullshit.

Oh, and the name calling really suits your low intellect, btw.

[Kadamose]

[quote=“Al3xand3r”]Baldur’s Gate, Warcraft, Elite, Freespace, Ultima, Ultima Underworld, Ultima Online, X-Com, Civilization, Mechwarrior, Sid Meier’s Pirates!, Thief, Homeworld, Falcon, Fallout, System Shock, Deus Ex, Total War, tons and tons more. And of course the titles I do mention are more than they seem if you count because most of these have at least one worthy sequel (perhaps one or two not so worthy as well but that’s besides the point).

Then again I don’t know why I bother responding to you, you responded to nothing I peviously said and your reply here will be something along the lines of “all these titles are boring and none of them are as good as PDS”. Still, the fact remains they are legendary even if you can personally claim you hated all of them just to back up your nonexistent point.[/quote]

Thief and Deus Ex were really good games; what they lacked in gameplay, they backed up with deep storylines - the others on that list are really generic though; I don’t care how successful they were.

[Goonboy_Panzer]

[quote=“Parn”]Original point nothing. I’d appreciate it if you’d play along and answer the question. What benefit is there to Sega developing these games internally versus outsourcing, other than having the title screen list Sega exclusively? After all, this seems to be a really big deal for you, unfortunately.

Or we can continue the “if you had intelligence” and “if you knew how to read” internet forum debating method circa 1997, which would ultimately come back to your dodging the question.

Edit: And since you keep bringing it up, I never once accused you of referring to Sega of America’s development of games as rubbish. Go ahead and look through the posts. The only thing I’m accusing you of is thinking that the development of these games would be better if they were coded by Sega of Japan instead of Sega of America. And once again, answer the question.[/quote]

That last statement implies exactly that you think i was saying these games won’t be as good as the sega Japan ones. Your "gotcha"comment also implies this. I never once said that these games would be better if they would be handled by sega japan either so again why don’t you take your own advice and read people’s posts carefully? I said in the last post quite clearly that i was concerned about sega japan’s lack of games and whether you like it or not the reason most people are fans of this company are because of the games made from that division. Quality of the games was never mentioned by me at all concerning Sega west. So stop dragging something that you clearly lost,admit your mistake and move on.

[Light_Wing]

[quote=“Kadamose”]Halo = hyped up CRAP
World of Warcraft = hyped up SHIT
Half Life = hyped up and extremely buggy bullshit.

Oh, and the name calling really suits your low intellect, btw.[/quote]

You’re the one who called me a retard just because I mention Final Fantasy 7

[Kadamose]

[quote=“Light Wing”]

[quote=“Kadamose”]Halo = hyped up CRAP
World of Warcraft = hyped up SHIT
Half Life = hyped up and extremely buggy bullshit.

Oh, and the name calling really suits your low intellect, btw.[/quote]

You’re the one who called me a retard just because I mention Final Fantasy 7[/quote]

That’s because only a mindless zombie would like a game like Final Fantasy 7.

[Pedro_The_Hutt]

[quote=“Kadamose”]
Thief and Deus Ex were really good games; what they lacked in gameplay, they backed up with deep storylines - the others on that list are really generic though; I don’t care how successful they were.[/quote]

I’d bet a euro though that you haven’t played half the games Alexander and myself listed. >.>;; But either way I would stop generalising the gaming industry into Japan: Good. Rest of the world: Bad. As said before, even Japan had lousy games and the western world has made several genuine gems.

As to the Morrowind thing Parn brought up: Really? o.o I’ve never had an issue happen to me while playing Morrowind, but then again, I have the PC GOTY version. So perhaps things got patched up.

[Parn]

I said in the last post quite clearly that i was concerned about sega japan’s lack of games

So basically, it’s “unfortunate” that these titles are being developed by Sega of America instead of Sega of Japan because it means Sega of Japan produced less games this year?

Do you really expect me to buy that?

why don’t you take your own advice and read people’s posts carefully?

When did I give you that advice? Go ahead and quote me. I have a good idea of what you’ll probably reference and it’d be really reaching, but feel free to surprise me.

So stop dragging something that you clearly lost,admit your mistake and move on.

This isn’t 1997. Telling the other poster that you’ve won isn’t going to win you an argument, online or offline.

[Light_Wing]

[quote=“Kadamose”]
That’s because only a mindless zombie would like a game like Final Fantasy 7.[/quote]

Oh, so you’re saying everyone who likes FF is a mindless zombie? I talked to a couple of people who liked FF and they say that it influenced other RPGs. Some say that the series saved Square Enix and made it popular. Lastly, they say it make them grow interest on other RPGs. And you say the series is nothing but a waste and a show-off. Well, I tell you what. What you said about video games from the west, I bet you never played them, you just lied claiming that you know every west game and making comments of how crappy they are. Its like saying Japanese Animation is better than American Animation. So what I say about FF and you, just look at my sig.

Back to the topic, you know Sonic the Hedgehog for the PS3 and XBOX360 and the score they got? Thats one of the “bad games” from Sega of Japan.
Its not the lack of games, its the lack of time and planning carefully.

[Kadamose]

[quote=“Light Wing”]

[quote=“Kadamose”]
That’s because only a mindless zombie would like a game like Final Fantasy 7.[/quote]

Oh, so you’re saying everyone who likes FF is a mindless zombie? [/quote]

That’s exactly what I’m saying. The entire Final Fantasy series lacks substance in every sense of the word - basically what I’m implying is that the series has no soul. You can’t make a game with just pretty graphics alone and Square-Enix STILL has not learned this vital lesson.

[quote]
Back to the topic, you know Sonic the Hedgehog for the PS3 and XBOX360 and the score they got? Thats one of the “bad games” from Sega of Japan.
Its not the lack of games, its the lack of time and planning carefully.[/quote]

No, MOST games suck nowadays because the videogame industry is saturated with mediocrity; this basically stunts creative development all across the board. Unfortunately, making games isn’t about creating art anymore, which was the mindset in the early 90s; instead, it’s all about taking home a paycheck. That’s how low the industry has fallen, and, unfortunately, once you stoop that low, there’s no way to dig yourself out. The ONLY way for creative development to come back into the picture again is if there is another videogame market crash.