Now I hate to be pedantic, but in PDO you fight quite a good mix of monsters and Imperial ships - if anything it’s the other games that are more skewed:
You did notice that the Wormriders are all riding on Baldors, right…? Besides which, it’s not normal for a PD game to recycle exactly the same enemy designs; the only other time we’ve seen familiar creatures is in PDS, and then only as hidden cameos.
But as I say, the monsters and ships in any PD game are new designs; Panzer Dragoon Orta is not being different in this case.
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]Why do people keep making this as if the ones that don’t like Orta do it out of their love for PDS… I even strictly held my part of the discussion comparing Orta with Zwei, as did others, in order to avoid such things…
As for us “nitpicking” when we mention things like the statue or that “claws boss” airship, whatever it was called… Well, we are not nitpicking, they are the tip of the iceberg as far as out of place changes are concerned, they are simply more striking because they are bosses and they are huge and they actually represent a lot of the game’s visual changes… So they will obviously be mentioned as examples of the changes. Still, more common enemies were just as different (what the hell were those things you were fighting while flying at the side of the huge air fortress?). The dragon itself was different too, is that nit picking as well? You can argue that some of the changes on it happened due to its separation from the heresy program but the changes are not only anatomical (I actually liked the way the dragon runs even tho i didn’t like the way the claws looked while he flies around) but also in the visual style things are portrayed…
[/quote]
I a bit of this was down to the Saturn hardware as well. I bet there’s many things TA were not able to do on the Saturn in terms of looks and Art degsin. But thanks to the power of the X-Box could do now
In 1of the interviews I read that was a huge reasons why the Team wanted to go back to the Panzer world, after seeing the power of the X-Box.
For me ORTA was and is masterpiece and a worthy follow up. What I also like was it kept the Panzer Trademarks.
The incredible and weird bosses from Part 1, the fast action pace of part 2. The boss system from SAGA (truly amazing how Smilebit pulled that off). The story, Water effects and music that makes the Panzer series what it is. The ending was pure in ORTA was pure Dragoon too. It answered as many questions as it leaves unanswered .
For me it a work of perfection and SEGA best game since they became 3rd paty. And one of the best games they made in their history.
Panzer Dragoon is like Bladerunner (best film ever made) for me. Now one knows the real story (if he human or not) the film Answered just as many questions as it left answered. And left the viewers to make his or her mind up.
Panzer Dragoon is no diff. everybody as their own views and theories to the series. That what makes it so great. Even now after all these years we don?t know the full story or even who was the original Dragon rider in the intro to the very 1st game.
It would spoil it to know all the answers. Heck I?m sure half the time SEGA don?t know their self?s
Atolm : I played FFX,FF8 and FF6.I liked the later one actually.
You didn’t answer my question btw.Saga introduced a lot of change.I mean PDS introduced half of the PD world.Where are you trying to get?Do you think there’s some obscure reason why we don’t like Orta so much?
I understand that the drastic changes could be a bit odd for the hardcore fans. I just believe that the team was trying to inject something new into the series since the last game pretty much painted the series into a corner.
Considering that the Towers kept the natural balance of the world in place (or so we’re told… hahaha, sorry, couldn’t resist), destroying a Tower (or the Tower network, depending on how you look at it) would have drastic effects on the world itself. And with the fall of the Empire as we knew it, what sense would it make to have another Empire rise up and utilize the exact same design sense?
orta did nothing nearly as strange as putting sonic in the game; all the changes they made were well reasoned and fully explained. it would have been ridiculous if there were no changes; a lot had happened since saga and orta took us many places that the previous games had never tread.
and the towers shutting down had nothing to do with the change in imperial fashion- that was a result of the incorporation of the southern island cultures.
no baldors? then what are the warmriders(!) actually riding on? =DDD
yes, lets say it like that: Orta was way not Nausicaaish enough, this is what the old trilogy has been about. that killed a lot of the soul of the original games.
it would be like giving the old jedi religion a scientific explanation… oh wait they did that! how many people actually liked that?
and I had no problems with two deathstars, because it’s a clichee for mad emperors to try the same thing over and over again, only bigger and with more money. i think in that way the explanation wasn’t that far from reality.
[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Atolm : I played FFX,FF8 and FF6.I liked the later one actually.
You didn’t answer my question btw.Saga introduced a lot of change.I mean PDS introduced half of the PD world.Where are you trying to get?Do you think there’s some obscure reason why we don’t like Orta so much?[/quote]
Obscure reason? No of course not, but you cant help but feel the negativity around the game because of the changes… one moment I hear praise next moment I hear it as a black sheep. I cant help but feel a little bit of confusement as to who really enjoyed the game and who would be really be upset at the little things, This does not mean I think people hate the game, although I know some of you do… Perhaps I missed too much during my brief absence but hey, thats my fault. If you want to discuss this more Gehn, Private Message me.
It is like the changes that were made to the Ecco the dolphin Series, if anyone has played the Genesis versions you would be famiilier with the ideas of Vortex, Asterite and Atlantis. Now go to the Dreamcast Ecco the dolphin and there is a new story line with no Vortex but the FOE, the Asterite is not there to guide you but you have something called the Guardian and Atlantis is not at all what we see from the genesis versions. It is a brand new storyline and the only thing that made it Ecco was putting a dolphin in that had stars on his head and he could travel in time and of course calling him Ecco.
This is not the Ecco that many hardcore fans of the previous games had wanted, with the scrapped ones of the 32x and the saturn, it was a great dissappointment that the story had completely changed so that nothing (maybe Hanging Waters level as a tribute level) of the orginal games remained. But that did not make it a bad game, it is actually a very excellent game.
At least with Orta, there is something that the fans of the older series could relate to and something that new fans to the series can look to. There are baldors in this game, they are just sleek and shiny looking, but I do have a picture of a worm rider riding a PDS style Baldor…0_o;
and many things can happen over a period of 30 years, many many things, thats like comparing the 1970’s to the 1990’s.
i don’t remember it saying that the empire actually fell… the emperor died, there was a time of unrest, but it was ultimately the annexation of the southern peoples that changed the empire’s styles.
maybe i’ve spent too much time in pandora’s box…
that’s exactly what i was trying to communicate to divine dragon
[quote=“lordcraymen”]Fact is that the remaining TA members at smilebit had no idea what the panzer story was about, so they just made something up. They had no time and even had to change the story 3 months prior the original release date.
So this can’t have helped with quality a lot, regardless if some peaople liked it or not. I highly doubt most of the changes were deliberate desctions or came from the brain of more than maybe 2 or 3 people.[/quote]
I don’t think we can really judge Panzer Dragoon Orta on what the team may or may not have planned, but what actually ended up in the game. Sure, lots of very questionable things were probably changed in the design process (like the dragon talking with his lips for example) which would have made the game a lot worse, but the fact is that those design choices didn’t make it into the final game, even if Smilebit were planning to put them in there at one stage. And that’s really all that matters, surely? Does it really matter if they planned this and that and those features didn’t make it into the final game?
What I’m saying is that I don’t think that all of Smilebit’s choices while developing the game were flawless and well thought out either. What I do think though, is that the final product that was released is far from a bad Panzer Dragoon game.
Yeah, there were lots of similarities between the Saturn designs and the ones in Orta definately. But, isn’t that exactly what fans want - more of the same? At least, that’s what I’ve gathered from reading this topic.
Music and art style aside, I can?t think what else in Orta is actually that much different in those area that you mentioned. Could you elaborate a bit more on why you thought the level design in Orta was worse than Zwei? If you compare the canyon level in Zwei with the second level in Orta (Altered Genos) what is worse about the level design in Orta?
Just curious - you could also apply that logic to Shining Force Neo saying that the Shining Force battle system has been rehashed over ten(?) games and is well overdue for a new battle system. Not that I think that the Shining Force battle system needs to be replaced with an action RPG battle system, but I’m wondering, what are your thoughts on that? >:)
[quote=“lordcraymen”]yes, lets say it like that: Orta was way not Nausicaaish enough, this is what the old trilogy has been about. that killed a lot of the soul of the original games.
it would be like giving the old jedi religion a scientific explanation… oh wait they did that! how many people actually liked that?[/quote]
The different themes in Orta didn’t so much “kill” the soul of the original games, they just expanded the existing story in a different story IMO. The originals are still there, but the world carries on… a place now free from the will of the Ancients (kind of) and therefore not so bound by the same themes. Many of the themes are shown in art style of Orta. The world is now brighter which reflects the changes that deactivation of the Towers had on the world. It shows how important shutting down the Towers actually was, as opposed to the world being the same and showing that Edge’s sacrifice did nothing at all.
Agreed. Think about it. Panzer Dragoon Saga ended with the destruction of the tower system. This completed threw the world over it’s head. Enviroments completely changed. The Empire went through mass turmoil after the death of the emperor, and went through a lot of cultural changes after taking over the southern islands. PDO represented a changed world, and rightly so. There was a 30 year difference between Saga and Orta, and a lot of things changed between those two times. And I beleive Orta showed that quite well.
And in defense of the statue…yes, it was a foolish boss. But I think it also had a small purpose. In Panzer Dragoon Saga, it was shown the there were people who beleived in Gods that would protect them from the monsters and danger. The golden statue is actually the symbol of a Goddess in some cultures. Perhaps the Empire adopted a religion into their culture, and that statuee was more of a symbolic weapon, then a practical one?
Anyway, I’ll be honest, I didn’t notice a huge difference between the music in Orta and the music in past games. It felt as Panzerish to me as the past games. It just sounded like it was given a more “techno-esque” tone to it, similiar to PSO.
It’s anything but techno-esque.Well Ancient Weapon 2 may be but certainly not the rest.Unfortunately Ancient Weapon 2 is the best track next to City in the Storm.
I think people aren’t getting each other’s points.Of course there had to be major changes in the world.As far as landscape is concerned.
The Empire rised from the ashes of battle.Well thousands had to have survived the Great Fall.Those were bound to keep their traditions right?I mean for 60 (years or so ) we saw basically the same Empire in terms of aesthetics.Some slight changes but keeping with the trend.
A catastrophy happens.For the Empire as a nation to have survived numerous citizens must have survived too.Nations don’t usually evolve culture wise after wars.At least not so drastically (40 years).
Plus you are forgetting about pure-types.They weren’t affected by the Fall.I mean, Towers are required to produce them and they were shut down.Why then are we seeing completely (and i mean completely) new pure-types?Not even one cameo appearence?
Admit it people : Smilebit could have been a lot smoother with their aesthetical changes.
(for the record I like the new pure-type inclusions in PDO)
Many countries after WWII changed pretty drastically from the end of the war to the mid eighties. Just take Japan for example and Germany also. 40 years is a lot longer than one might think, technology can sky rocket in that time and with it cultural change to reflect progress. The modern day computer hasn’t been around for 30 years yet and look at the leaps its made. I don’t think the changes made were unrealistic at all. (Not claiming they were good or bad.)
[size=167]IT WASN’T THE DAMN WAR, IT WAS THE ANNEXATION OF THE SOUTHERN PEOPLES AND THEIR CULTURE!![/size]
read the damn encyclopedia, OR MY POSTS!!
ahem and secondly, new monsters can be explained by orta going to new regions. we saw new monsters in each panzer dragoon after the original, why is it that this is brought up only in orta’s case?
I think the statue is meant to be of the Seventh Emperor from Panzer Dragoon Saga, which the new Empire constructed to honor his “bravery”. I’m personally not a huge fan of the statue though as it does seem a bit out of place in the Panzer Dragoon world, but then, who knows what the Empire could have constructed. Different cultures means different types of structures.
[quote=“Gehn”]The Empire rised from the ashes of battle.Well thousands had to have survived the Great Fall.Those were bound to keep their traditions right?I mean for 60 (years or so ) we saw basically the same Empire in terms of aesthetics.Some slight changes but keeping with the trend.
A catastrophy happens.For the Empire as a nation to have survived numerous citizens must have survived too.Nations don’t usually evolve culture wise after wars.At least not so drastically (40 years).[/quote]
If you have a look through Pandora’s Box there are a few quotes worth mentioning:
The Empire was without an army, and
the islanders were without leaders.
At that point, an alliance seemed to be
the only logical solution.
and
After wiping out all the satellite regions
of the Empire, Craymen and his men
activated the ruins near Lake Ul in
the northeast section of the Continent.
Consequently, a great many
bio-engineered creatures emerged from
the ruins and ran rampant, causing
further damage to the Empire’s remote
cities and regions.
So, even though the Empire’s fleet wasn’t entirely wiped out in Panzer Dragoon Saga, the vast majority the remaining ships were likely to have been destroyed after the Towers were deactivated… from rampant biomonsters. That explains why when the Empire started to rebuild itself, it required new ships - ships that the southerners just happened to have.
I wonder why the Southerners didn’t just conquer what remained of the Old Empire?
I’m not sure if it actually says anywhere in the Saturn trilogy that the Towers are the only structures that can produce biomonsters. Remember, there were a number of other ruins that weren’t deactivated by the Great Fall. Edge simply disabled the main Ancient ruins; the Towers.
As for not seeing any pure types from the older games… as Lance said before, how often did we see the same monsters in more than one game before Orta? Since PDO is set in a different region to PDS, it makes sense that the monsters are different, just like how you find different animals in different countries in the real world.
Felix : but those advancements were due to other countries who were more advanced in terms of research at that time.
Megathedium : I know what you mean already damnit!I read the PBox before too!!
But ( and this is for you too Solo) the annexation of nations that are inferior in terms of technology doens’t normally spur advancement.The reason why I know those nations weren’t more advanced is because of what Solo said : if they wer emore powerful they would
1-Have invaded the Empire before they did
2-Who not be defeated by the Empire which didn’t really have firepower that the time
Abadd: I like change. And obviously since most of us love the whole saturn trilogy like changes too because those games have a lot of differences when compared… But, again, the changes in Orta do not feel natural for a lot of us. Why was the art style changed? Was that necessary to portay the new things they wanted to do?
IE: Why does the dragon’s armor look like rigged old bone like material instead of the smooth armor like look of the original games which basically looked like the same material as the float engines are made of? And why are the float engines themselves different too? Surely those atleast should have remained the same since they are still simply being excavated so their designs would be the same as the engines excavated in the previous games, no?
As for the creatures… Ok the new creatures COULD exist in the panzer world and perhaps they are not “unnatural” in that aspect. Still, that doesn’t mean we have to like the new designs simply because they are “possible” when we are used to seeing creatures that to us are “better”? (For the record I too like the new pure type creatures and would even like to see more of them since they are a very small part of the game…)
The flow of the game/story could be a lot better too… Seeing the dragon in Orta opening its now healed wings to fly once again after the “run” level felt like a very cheaply created rehash of the original “first flight” sequence in Panzer Dragoon Zwei which was a lot more dramatic and well made… I don’t think i have any really memorable moments from Orta to be honest except the stuff with the heresy program and azel… But that’s only because they are references to the previous games so I’d propably remember them regardless of the qualiity…
As for what I meant by level design and enemy patterns, this has been discussed before. For example, in PDZ episode 3 you keep switching your vision left to right as the stingers come at you from all directions,swaying left,right, up,down while chasing your dragon… The way imperial crafts move in Orta feels a lot less interesting. The same goes for the level design, there were a lot of exciting moments placed within the standard gameplay in PDZ. Like the part that you go through that city (speculated to be a meccanian city by fans) where a war is going on and airships attack other installations - and you - as you ride through it on your dragon… Or the high speed route in the caverns with the enemies appearing again in all directions… then a sudden change of pace, silence as your dragon lands on that bridge… and suddenly you notice something in the water, the bridge collapses and you are in for one hell of a boss fight… (you may mention the ancient ruins level in Orta as similar but it doesn’t hold a candle compared to PDZ’s caverns or even the inside-the-shellcoof level…) Same for the boss fight of Episode 3 with the enemy always shifting positions from left to right, behind you, in front of you… The only Boss that came close to that feel in Orta was the boss of the level with the pure types… Propably because it attacked in a similar fashion to that PDZ boss. In fact I think the way you are able to shift your position during a boss fight was what made them compromise in the boss patterns in order to allow you to do that showing that, again, the “less” gameplay of PDZ actually was “more” in the end…
Solo, I think the point LC was trying to make when he talked about the “features” that were planned and taken out (thanks to a certain someone) near the end of the development was that they really did develop it “cheaply” without completelly understanding what they should have set out to do and then patched it up in a hurry in the end thus resulting in a final game that a lot of us don’t find up to par with the previous in the series…
PS: I’ll understand if you guys don’t read this post, I’m not very good in explaining things in english (or any other language tbh)… I did my best
[quote=“lordcraymen”]Fact is that the remaining TA members at smilebit had no idea what the panzer story was about, so they just made something up. They had no time and even had to change the story 3 months prior the original release date.
So this can’t have helped with quality a lot, regardless if some peaople liked it or not. I highly doubt most of the changes were deliberate desctions or came from the brain of more than maybe 2 or 3 people.[/quote]
I don’t think we can really judge Panzer Dragoon Orta on what the team may or may not have planned, but what actually ended up in the game. Sure, lots of very questionable things were probably changed in the design process (like the dragon talking with his lips for example) which would have made the game a lot worse, but the fact is that those design choices didn’t make it into the final game, even if Smilebit were planning to put them in there at one stage. And that’s really all that matters, surely? Does it really matter if they planned this and that and those features didn’t make it into the final game?
What I’m saying is that I don’t think that all of Smilebit’s choices while developing the game were flawless and well thought out either. What I do think though, is that the final product that was released is far from a bad Panzer Dragoon game.
Yeah, there were lots of similarities between the Saturn designs and the ones in Orta definately. But, isn’t that exactly what fans want - more of the same? At least, that’s what I’ve gathered from reading this topic.
Music and art style aside, I can?t think what else in Orta is actually that much different in those area that you mentioned. Could you elaborate a bit more on why you thought the level design in Orta was worse than Zwei? If you compare the canyon level in Zwei with the second level in Orta (Altered Genos) what is worse about the level design in Orta?
Just curious - you could also apply that logic to Shining Force Neo saying that the Shining Force battle system has been rehashed over ten(?) games and is well overdue for a new battle system. Not that I think that the Shining Force battle system needs to be replaced with an action RPG battle system, but I’m wondering, what are your thoughts on that? >:)
[quote=“lordcraymen”]yes, lets say it like that: Orta was way not Nausicaaish enough, this is what the old trilogy has been about. that killed a lot of the soul of the original games.
it would be like giving the old jedi religion a scientific explanation… oh wait they did that! how many people actually liked that?[/quote]
The different themes in Orta didn’t so much “kill” the soul of the original games, they just expanded the existing story in a different story IMO. The originals are still there, but the world carries on… a place now free from the will of the Ancients (kind of) and therefore not so bound by the same themes. Many of the themes are shown in art style of Orta. The world is now brighter which reflects the changes that deactivation of the Towers had on the world. It shows how important shutting down the Towers actually was, as opposed to the world being the same and showing that Edge’s sacrifice did nothing at all.[/quote]
Great post mate. It is utter rubbish to say that Smilebit didn’t know the story to Panzer.
A lot part of the Smilebit Team come from the people that made SAGA and Zwei, not a lot of the original TA Team worked on Zwei or SAGA. Has a lot of new memebers came in for parts II and III.
Have a look at the information SB put in Pandora’s Box on the history of the world (Just as a bonus). And tell me these people knew nothing of the story.
People that actually worked on the game and for TA should now a thing or too about the Story and backround for the game.
As for the music that makes me laugh too. Zwei was a massive change in style over that from the 1st game. Much more Techno , and synthesized than that found in the original (which was much more classical).
Don’t remember people saying that Zwei wasn’t a Panzer game becasue the music was changed so much.
ORTA is just as much a true Panzer game as any in the series. I just hope the ORTA guys get a chance to make a SAGA II
I’m gonna faint!The Imperial District Goes Up In Flames is the best example of how wrong (or sleepy :P) you are.
And I agree.Zwei’s music was a lot different from PD1’s.But people shouldn’t forget it was Saori Kobayashi the responsible for both Saga’s and Orta’s music.
And there’s an even greater gap between those two.
