Panzer Dragoon 5: Proof of existence

In response to Gehn: Take, for instance, the movie “Sixth Sense.”

SPOILERS!!!

Take any scene from that movie involving Bruce Willis, after the opening sequence. Bruce’s character’s interactions with the rest of the world aside from Cole (Haley Joel Osment) are all merely suggested by the use of movie-making techniques: when Cole comes home to find Bruce’s character sitting in the chair across from his mother, the audience automatically assumes that the mother and Bruce were deep in conversation when Cole comes home, though it’s never actually explicitly stated or shown.

Or, for instance, every time Bruce went home to go to his basement, he’d find the door locked. The camera would only show from the handle up, and it’d show Bruce fumbling in his pocket for his keys. The next scene would always be him sitting in his office in the basement, leading the audience to automatically assume that he’d found his key, opened the door, and went downstairs as normal. However, M. Night Shyamalan’s direction was great in that it made the audience feel as oblivious to the truth as Bruce’s character.

It was Shyamalan’s understanding of the medium that allowed him to use those tricks to tell a story in a new and unique way.

Or, take, for instance, the movie “Memento.” The story in and of itself wasn’t terribly innovative. However, the way it was told could only be effectively done so in the movie medium.

It’s that sort of thing that I’m talking about. I’m looking for a game made by someone who has an intimiate understanding of the medium itself, and design the story/gameplay around those unique aspects of the medium.

But, there are books and movies that do this equally as well, or even better, in many cases. What is it specifically about this that makes you elevate it above all else? There are plenty of stories that have great characters, well executed plots, etc. etc. etc. You’ve only stated general thoughts about how great the game is, but you haven’t said why.

No offense taken, other than the fact that this pretty much proves you don’t listen to anything anyone says that doesn’t feed your mindset. I’ve stated over and over my dislike for games like FF (in fact, I imply as much in this very thread). And for the record, I’ll name a game: Ico (at least I know Al3xand3r is paying attention). Sheer genius. And it actually does something unique, which PDS does not (again, not to take away from the quality of its execution).

[quote=“Kadamose”]
It’s the most imaginitave universe I have ever seen - and not only that, but the Panzer world is a literal hell - it’s not a happy place at all. This, alone, gets major browny points.[/quote]

How is it the most imaginitive universe ever? Ever read Nausicaa? Laputa?Ever read Moebius’ stuff? PDS is directly related to those.

And as for your comments on piracy… I won’t go into details, just because I’ve done it too many times and I’ve learned that people will continue to pirate regardless of what truths are presented before them. But, your comments about the $10 per game thing interest me. Care to elaborate? How is it you propose that this business plan will work? You obviously have great insight into the costs of building a game, and how the industry works… what are your plans for establishing a $10/game business model?

[quote=“Abadd”]I’m not saying a story is less profound because it’s not interactive. I’ve seen plenty of movies that have made me think, moved me to tears, or have otherwise enriched me. I’ve also read books that have done the same, and I’ve played some games (albeit only as many that I could count on one hand) that moved me as well.

However, what I’m saying is that games need to find their unique voice. They need to find what it is about their medium, and exploit it. Otherwise, games will never advance. The graphics will get better, the battle systems may get more complex… but you’ll never have another unique experience.

Panzer Saga WAS NOT a huge innovation… it just did what other RPGs were doing and did it better. It told a story that could have been told in a book, a movie, or an anime, but allowed you to interact with some parts of it. It had a battle system that could be argued as innovative, but it was still based around old constructs: random encounter, turn-based (even though you’ve got time bars, it’s not “real time” in the true sense of the word), etc. etc.

As for the guy who claims to have stumbled on a strategy/RPG game from Sega… I can guarantee that whatever it is, it’s not a PD game, so don’t get your hopes up.

Kadamose, you go on and on about how grand PDS was and how nothing has ever come close to it’s quality. Care to explain what about it was so splendid? Not to detract anything from its quality, but I fail to see why you think PDS is some pinnacle of perfection, never again to be reached by mortal minds. I don’t mean to instigate this any further, because god knows (it’s just a saying, I’m not referring to you) that nobody is going to change your mind. I’m just really, really perturbed by your claims and your constant assurance that the rest of humanity is stupid, that catgirls are the next big thing, and whatever else your mind thinks up.

Oh, and pirates are asses.[/quote]

It really was for a Japanese developed RPG. The battle system was original, as was the morphing system (at that time). But the truly original thing about it was the fact that through out the entire game you never joined a party.

It was you and the Dragoon all the way.
And the ending to the game is still the best ever. So original, memorable.

I think SEGA will never top SAGA. They could make a SAGA II that could be almost as good, but it will never have the same impact.

In just the same way SEGA will never top Saturn SEGA RALLY (still the best driving game). Those games were 1 of those thing, where you had the right people, the right hardware, making the game at the right time

But one of the very first console RPGs ever didn’t have a party, either: Dragon Quest 1. The battle system was creative, but it wasn’t revolutionary. It didn’t necessarily turn the genre on its ear. It definitely helped move it forward and added a level of strategy that wasn’t necessarily there before, but I’d like to think the term “revolutionary” would mean something completely and utterly new.

Sorry to butt in everyone, but Kadamose, if you’re honestly convinced that we’re all such utter morons why do you bother posting on this forum at all? There’s nothing cool or clever about insulting other people’s personal likes and dislikes, it’s just childish. If you really think that people must be stupid just because they don’t agree with your personal opinions on everything from the philosophical to the most completely trivial, grow up. Having your own personal viewpoint and opinions on things is just great, but not only is it pointless to go around pushing your opinions at people like they’re indisputable facts because you’re convinced that you’re infallibly right and that everyone else is wrong, but most people don’t want to hear about it.

I guess it depends what you mean by “top”, exactly; sequels, follow-ups and “clones” by definition usually don’t receive as much acclaim as original games, but this doesn’t seem to be so much because they’re not as good but because they’re not as innovative or unique. Take the N64 game GoldenEye for example; that’s arguably one of the most famous FPS games to date, but although its direct sequel (Perfect Dark) improved on most aspects of the original game it just didn’t make as much of an impact, largely because it was no longer something new.

My personal feeling is that it would indeed be possible for a “better” sequel to Panzer Dragoon Saga to be made, although whether this will come to be of course remains to be seen. If the creators put their minds to it, I’m confident that they could maintain the style, equal the storyline and better the gameplay (and of course the graphics) of the original. (As despite PDS being one of my all-time favourite games, I certainly didn’t think that it couldn’t be improved upon in some aspects.)

[quote=“Abadd”]How is it the most imaginitive universe ever? Ever read Nausicaa? Laputa?Ever read Moebius’ stuff? PDS is directly related to those.
[/quote]

Laputa and Nausicaa are great - except they have one major flaw that 90% of every anime and manga suffer from. They start out brilliant, and then, toward the middle, you get what they call ‘fillers’ and the story becomes redundant and uninteresting. And when the series finally ends, you ask yourself, “where the hell did that come from all of the sudden?”.

I pirate anime and manga too, and have watched almost everything from 1991 - present. I haven’t covered alot of ground in the manga department due to lack of translations, but it suffers from the same problems that anime does, but on a much smaller scale.

PDS had it’s flaws too - everything does. But, it’s execution in all areas was flawless - which is why I praise it the way I do.

You’re right - piracy isn’t ever going to go away until everything becomes free…and that time is coming very soon. And yes, Nanotechnology has everything to do with it.

As for the $10 a game statement - the reason why systems and games do not sell like they should is because the majority of the people are lower class, minimum wage workers. They simply can’t afford to buy games or systems with the current prices - so instead of having a potential 300 million userbase (going on current US population - other countries such as China would have a much higher userbase) you’re left with a 5-20 million ‘system’ userbase, with only 20% of those owners constantly buying games. That’s dumb business no matter how you look at it.

On the financial side of creating a game - let’s do the math. I’ll use an example from a series I hate: Final Fantasy X took $11 million to create - at $10 per game, it would require 1,100,000 people to buy the game just to break even on the production costs. But at that price, masses of people will purchase both the system and many other games due to the temptation, creating a massive worldwide userbase. There’s 6 billion people currently in the world - and videogames are pretty much being aimed at the wealthy. This has to change if the videogame industry wants to survive the next 7 years before the entire worldwide economy is destroyed by Nanotechnology.

I don’t consider anyone on this forum to be stupid; that’s why I hang around - I just add those type of statements in to push people’s buttons a little. I get a good laugh in when people get offended by such statements - even though it’s true.

The only thing you manage with those statements is to lose everyone’s respect so if you really wanna stay I suggest you start showing some of that to everyone and their opinions and not act like your opinion is fact.

I like how you only reply to half the things ppl say even if you have engaged in a debate with them… Talk about convenience…

As for the 10$ game thing I suppose you forget that companies need to come up with a profit, that there is publishing costs and that retailers also need to have a profit for their employees to get paid and also business profit for them as well… And that’s the least of your mistakes in those statements >_>

PDS’ execution was far from flawless. Get off it already. I don’t like being made to mention PDS’ flaws…

OK, so you’re more or less just trolling. If you haven’t noticed yet this community doesn’t appreciate it in any way, as we actually value maturity and respect for others. Try and show some of these things when you post or kindly don’t bother at all.

I’m saying nothing.

What is the “filler” in Nausicaa/Laputa? I could argue that even PDS has plenty of filler. What is the purpose, for example, of all the random battles? What is the purpose of half of the NPCs in the game? It’s not “filler,” as you’ve put it, in the case of the two anime in question - it’s sequences used to establish the world, establish characters, etc. etc. Mizaki’s films are, if anything, lacking in “filler.” And the endings… if you knew what they were about, you’d know that they didn’t just come out of nowhere.

And this statement doesn’t even make sense. How is it flawed, yet flawless in execution?

Yes, yes. And our alien overlords will see to it that all humans are nice and plump before they’re eaten.

Now, onto your math. So, you’re saying that if something is available for $10, you’d reach a potential 300 million userbase? Wow… I bet the movie industry and the music industry wishes they new that! Because, you know, there aren’t any DVDs or CDs available for $10!

But, that leaves the issue of getting people to still buy the hardware… if they can’t afford $20 videogames (because there are plenty of those out there… but perhaps that extra $10 is the breaking point?), how can we get them to buy the hardware? Perhaps if the hardware was $10?

And you know, regardless of how much FFX cost to make, it’s only $20 right now… which means that it should sell 150 million units!!! (I took the liberty of doing the math… if a game is supposed to reach 300 million people at $10, I figured if you doubled the price, it’d cut the consumer base roughly in half… not really accurate, but this is just for argument’s sake).

And, you know, as for the billions of people in the world… we can sell videogames to them all for $10! Even in the countries where $10 is someone’s monthly salary! Who cares if they don’t even have electricity, either!

But the fact that it’s a RPG means it’s nothing really new or we haven’t seen before. if you think about it. FABLE might be boosting about stuff we’ve never seen before in a RPG. At it’s heart though it’s a action RPG in the style of Land Stalker

I think NiGHTS is the most original game ever made. No other game looks like it, or sounds and plays like it… At it?s heart thought it?s just a simply score attack game.

Panzer Dragoon Orta has shown how much the series can benefit from today’s graphics, and there was always room for improvement in Panzer Dragoon Saga, so imagine just how great a true RPG sequel could be. So what if it’s all been done before? As long as a new Panzer Dragoon RPG provides more of the same gameplay you’ll hear no complaints from me.

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]

Panzer Dragoon Orta has shown how much the series can benefit from today’s graphics, and there was always room for improvement in Panzer Dragoon Saga, so imagine just how great a true RPG sequel could be. So what if it’s all been done before? As long as a new Panzer Dragoon RPG provides more of the same gameplay you’ll hear no complaints from me.[/quote]

No me mate.
A new SAGA using an enhanced Orta game engine would make me do summersaults down the street naked (and you can hold me to that ;)).

Just that no matter how could the game it will never have the same impact as the original SAGA.

In just the same way Zwei or Orta never had the same impact on me like the awesome and still the best Panzer Dragoon.

Booting up my JP Import Panzer Dragoon for the 1st time, made my jaw hit the floor again, again and again. I never saw anything like it. For the sequels I knew what to expect (well apart from SAGA).

So they never quite had the same impact. Much like Lunar II. In so many ways it?s better than the awesome Mega CD original. But It never had quite the same impact

I think what he meant is that Panzer Dragoon Saga has individual flaws because nothing is perfect, but if you take the game as a whole, it technically IS the perfect game. Er. Or something.

Um. I don’t approve of pirates or piracy. People can try to justify it, but it’s theft. Plain and simple.

I don’t see how Panzer Dragoon Saga had any real fillers. Unlike games like, say, Final Fantasy 7, Panzer Dragoon Saga’s NPCs had character and purpose and felt like they were real people. It also didn’t have too many minigames to slow it down.

I’ve also seen Laputa as the English dub Castle In The Sky. Not the most perfect anime, but I think it’s hands down the fastest moving one.

Nothin wrong with mini games ffs
As long as they are implemented right.

That was one thing I liked about PDS. It didn’t have a bunch of subquests and mini-games to distract the player from the main storyline. I remember hearing people complain that PDS was too short, but when you think about it, most of what makes other games 40-60 or more hours are those mini-games, extra quests, and tons of random battles. PDS has hardly any random battles, which is why a region feels particularly empty when you revisit it. They exist, but they’re just a lot rarer. Most of the original fights in an area are actually preset.

Also, it was nice to see that almost every NPC has a name, even if he or she is just a gatekeeper or a barmaid. It adds an extra layer of atmosphere when every NPC is an individual instead of clone number #15 of the same character sprite you’ve seen in the last five cities.

[quote=“Rune Lai”]

Also, it was nice to see that almost every NPC has a name.[/quote]

And a voice, and a visual.Yes that is very important IMO too.

Lunar (Mega CD) is the best RPG ever. And the most perfect game is Exhumed on the Saturn.

I really can’t think of any way that game could be made better.
Oh and BTW the best game of all time is Panzer Dragoon :).