It came to me in a dream

at the end of saga, the divine visitor deactivates the heresy program. it rushes away to someplace deeper within the sestren taking edge and lagi with it. later we see gash waiting at the meeting place for edge to return, but edge does not return. however we hear a dragon’s wings which could be none other than lagi’s. finally we see azel heading out on her search for edge.

we hear this recording in orta:

[quote=“heresy program”](( Your mission is completed.
Yet, you still wish to remain? ))
(( Your body is fragile and mortal now. ))
(( Your life will more than
likely end out there if you continue. ))
(( Alright, I understand. ))
(( Farewell, my other half… ))
(( I must rest… ))
(( Watch over our friends for me… ))[/quote]

from what we know, this must have occured at some point right after we see the heresy, edge, and lagi rush away in the sestren. if the heresy shut down after the DV did whatever it did, those were the final moments of the heresy that we did not get to see in saga. and shortly after, lagi re-enters the physical world and flies over gash. you following me so far?

so my point is: lagi was going somewhere at the end of saga, the heresy had given him one directive, “watch over our friends for me”, and azel was embarking on her inevitably fruitless search.

my dream was a panzer dragoon between saga and orta where lagi found azel in the electrical storms that anjou had warned her about. her coolia died and she was near death herself. lagi took her from that place and it kind of took on a PDO feel where lagi served as chaperone to the rider. to ease her sorrow lagi humored azel on any desire and takes her all across the region (perhaps to new lands).

and after fighting a suitably gigantic boss, she enters the sestren and creates orta :smiley:

but that was just my dream, what do you guys think of the prospect of lagi meeting with azel after the events of saga? it kind of casts lagi in the light of being the loyal family pet, which strengthens the bond between it and orta.

and what do you think of the idea of the devs ever going back in time (again) for a hypothetical PD game? i know i’d love to see the story of the sky rider- leading right up to his death infront of kyle. or the idea i listed above with azel and lagi?

edit- forgot to ask: what do you think of the use of the word “friends” in “watch over our friends for me”. if what i say is correct, azel is the only one we know of that the heresy would consider a “friend”. does this hint at further unknown adventures?

The Divine Visitor shut down before the Heresy dragon in spite of the Heresy dragon claiming that the Divine Visitor must destroy it in order to pave the way for a new beginning. I have a feeling that something was lost in translation, or the ending was changed.

In the non-Japanese version of Panzer Dragoon Orta the narrator could’ve been the Heresy dragon itself… alive and well. The role the Divine Visitor played ended, however, when it not only shutdown all the Towers, but shutdown the hibernation chambers housing the ancients who built them…

Although “watch over our friends for me” probably wan’t referring to Orta, it explains why Lagi was watching over Orta in the first place. Lagi didn’t want to leave the world behind…

I honestly don’t get that monologue.

First he says “still you wish to remain?” and then it says “life will more than likely end out there if you continue”.

Can someone explain me this?

It seem Heresy was implying Lagi wanted to remain but shortly after it implies it wants to leave…


gehn, the heresy was giving lagi a choice. it is worded strangely so i can see how there could be a misunderstanding.

by “remain” i think the heresy meant “not join me in sleep/death in the sestren”. for the second part, lagi obviously felt he had unfinished business in the real world, and the heresy was warning him that he would probably die if he did decide to continue living in the real world.

geoffrey duke, i don’t think i’m understanding you well enough, or you weren’t understanding me.

the DV was shut down before the heresy? i don’t see the evidence of this or the relevence :frowning: please enlighten me!

i think the issue of who the narrator was is still an unresolved issue. in the english version the narrator keeps referring to “the dragon”, so if it is lagi it is speaking in 3rd person- that could be chalked up to translation. lagi died at the end, yet there was a final entry about the dragon dying- that cannot be changed regardless of the translation.

but still i do not see the relevence of that statement.

i was saying that the quote i gave occured shortly after we see edge, the heresy and lagi fly away in the sestren. meaning that that was when lagi made the choice to continue in the real world. this would make PERFECT sense since we hear lagi fly over gash right afterwards.

now the real issue i meant to discuss was where lagi was going. i proposed that lagi was going to find azel.

as a secondary issue, i asked if you guys thought there was anything more to the use of the word “friendS”. it could have been in reference to orta, but i highly doubt it even if it was established that the heresy could see into the future.

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]First he says “still you wish to remain?” and then it says “life will more than likely end out there if you continue”.

Can someone explain me this?[/quote]

I get the impression that it’s talking about Lagi “remaining” and “continuing” in the outside world; at least the passage seems to make sense when read that way. (“Yet, you still wish to remain [out there]? Your life will more than likely end out there if you continue.”)

Just going by our translation, the Divine Visitor seemed to have already initiated the destruction / deactivation of the Heresy program before it left the game world - I assume you’re taking the TV-screen-style close as the Divine Visitor “shutting down”? The Divine Visitor (well, you or me) had already pushed the button to deactivate the Heresy program before that happened though, so surely this would still make sense?

Yes that is a sound possibility.

Thedium : I dunno if it was in the Heresy Program’s hands to enable Lagi in or out of Sestren

well since lagi is able to go into and out of the sestren later without the heresy program, i would think that it does not need the heresy to do that.

in either case, i don’t think the heresy would have forbade lagi from leaving. lagi was his loyal servant that aided him in accomplishing his duty. and now that the duty was complete, i’m sure the heresy would let lagi do whatever he wanted if not out of respect for the suffering lagi endured, then simply out of respect for the sentient creature.

It’d certainly be nice to fill in some lost time (and to find out what really happened to Azel, and even why she couldn’t be with Orta as she grew up,) although I’m not sure how well a whole game could be based around these things without disrupting the existing storylines. For example, we’ve been told that no dragons have been sighted since the end of PDS; there would have to be a good reason why the modern Empire thought this if Lagi had indeed been flying around the Continent in recent years. (Hardly an impossible problem, but things like that would have to be addressed nonetheless.)

Rather than having a whole game set in the past though, I keep thinking that a future PD game (RPG or shooter) could make good use of playable flashback sequences to explain some random plot points that we haven’t seen but which have already happened. Well, it probably wouldn’t be a good idea for a new game to do this as it would just confuse newer fans, but it would be nice from my own point of view. A random example: Orta could physically enter into the data within one of Sestren’s memory cells, and have an episode where she re-lived a part of what happened to Azel after Panzer Dragoon Saga. The player could fully take on the role of Azel for a short time, and discover key plot information regarding the present.

Another random example: the modern Empire could discover the body of the fallen Sky Rider buried out in the desert, and with their advanced technologies restore him to life. Unaware of who or what he is, the Sky Rider could take the role of a principal character, trying to piece together his forgotten life while at the same time confronting the threats of the present. Flashback sequences could let the player re-live (and play out) his final battle against the Dark Dragon, and other unknown things further into the past…

It could possibly be in reference to Gash and the Seekers, too; the fact that Gash heard the beating of the dragon’s wings in that epilogue could indicate that the dragon was watching over them (or just watching over all sympathetic humans) after it left the Sestren network.

Yes. The Divine Visitor’s screen shutdown soon after pressing the button while Edge and the Heresy dragon (who was still very much active) faded into the background.

The Divine Visitor could’ve deactivated the Heresy dragon and then shut itself down once it realised that its mission was complete (remember, we the player have no choice in the matter), but if the Heresy dragon lived to narrate Panzer Dragoon Orta then the Divine Visitor couldn’t have destroyed it.

I would’ve preffered it if the Heresy dragon had been destroyed, actually, as it would make sense when taking the memory of his conversion with Lagi into consideration. It would make perfect sense; however, that is not necessarily the case here.

Even if we’ve received no official confirmation as to the true nature of the narrator, the possibility of it being the Heresy dragon hasn’t been ruled out completely. Abadd said “one would assume” it was the voice of the Heresy dragon. I’d like to believe that the narrator was connected to the story; wouldn’t you?

The narrator in the Japanese version of Panzer Dragoon Orta is Lagi (this has been confirmed).

On one hand, I like to remain in full view of all the possibilities; on the other, I refuse to dismiss any ideas if they make at least some sense.

[quote=“Lance Way”]

Just going by our translation, the Divine Visitor seemed to have already initiated the destruction / deactivation of the Heresy program before it left the game world - I assume you’re taking the TV-screen-style close as the Divine Visitor “shutting down”? The Divine Visitor (well, you or me) had already pushed the button to deactivate the Heresy program before that happened though, so surely this would still make sense?[/quote]

I was merely wondering why the Heresy dragon didn’t shut down immediately after the player presses the button when the Divine Visitor was supposed to deactivate/destroy it by doing so, and why the Divine Visitor did shut down afterwards.

Also, how could the Heresy dragon live to narrate Panzer Dragoon Orta when it was meant to be deactivated/destroyed at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga? What did pressing that button really accomplish?

I’d always thought that it was probably a delayed response, and that it presumably just took time for the network to safely deactivate such a complex AI. I do agree that it seems odd, though.

Who knows? It looks like the Japanese ending to the game could have been anything from very similar to completely different to the translation we know, and I was only considering our version of the PDS ending, taken alone. In fairness too, it’s far from conclusive that the Heresy Program / Dragon is the narrator in the English version of PDO, even if it was meant to be the narrator back in Japan. The question is - even if the English translation genuinely deviates from the Japanese games, in issues like this narrator and the ending of PDS - should these things be treated as inaccuracies or should we just accept this as a different version of the storyline, which is valid in its own right?

After all, our version of the storyline does seem to make sense anyway, and it is the only storyline that most of us are ever going to know. Nothing in our PDO exactly contradicts the ending of our PDS where the Heresy Program was “destroyed”, even if that was added in translation. Our version of the storyline makes sense and is enjoyable in of itself, and perhaps we should be thankful for that; some translated games end up an awful lot worse. (Well, PD1 and PDZ weren’t too hot themselves, but they seem much easier to overlook than the plot-heavy PDS and PDO would be if they genuinely didn’t make sense).

sooo… wait… there IS a distinction between the heresy PROGRAM (spirit) and the heresy DRAGON (lagi), isn’t there?

as the DV, you initiated the shut down and then exited. i presume that the heresy program and edge went on to oblivion, but in their final moments (after the DV has already left) the dialogue takes place where lagi decides to stay in the world. then i proposed that lagi went on to find azel.

am i missing something? i don’t see how the DV deactivating first would disrupt that.

and on the narrator thing, as much as i’d like to believe that it was lagi, i can’t see how it could be since it talks about itself and the heir it leaves after it is dead.

it does have the same voice as the heresy program recording, so i am left with the following three options:

A) it is the heresy program within the sestren, not destroyed, but in a minimal state of activity. simply telling the story of his servant.

B) it is a history recording program within the sestren which was just following the events of that lifeform.

C) it was just text being read to fill in the time gaps between episodes.

i am inclined to believe A. orta’s gun (if there is truly no explanation for it) could have quite easily been an oversight/time constraint issue revolving around the FMV production. but i cannot see a message being delivered post mortem being such a mix up… anyone with me?

It depends on what the creators had in mind really. If the Heresy dragon wasn’t actually destroyed at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga in their mind, then it wasn’t. The creators never actually translated the Saturn Panzer Dragoon trilogy themselves, so they never made any intentional changes for the English language versions of those games.

The Saturn Panzer Dragoon trilogy was riddled with translation errors to the point of almost becoming something that the creators themselves never originally envisioned. However… some of the changes in the English version of PD Saga were deliberately made by Sega (not Team Andromeda), which (I’m led to believe) were kept in mind for the next game…

Our version of Panzer Dragoon Orta, on the other hand, tells a slightly different story to its original Japanese incarnation (i.e. Lagi isn’t the narrator), but the changes that were made weren’t the products of translation errors. Any changes that were made, were in fact made to best suit a different audience. No one can claim that the Japanese version of PD Orta contained the true version of events.

Of course, as long as we don’t see or hear from the Heresy dragon again, then we can always believe that it was destroyed at the end of PD Saga, which remains consistent with the English translation of Panzer Dragoon Saga. Let’s hope he stays “destroyed” for the sake of consistency. :slight_smile: Personally, I’d like to believe that it was the Heresy dragon who narrated the English version of Panzer Dragoon Orta because we really didn’t learn about its original purpose and why it chose to destroy the Towers. It was possibly a rogue Tower guardian or the Sestren AI’s replacement or was actually intended to destroy the Towers all along for whatever reason (perhaps because the ancients were human themselves and they didn’t want their own creations turning on them), but for one reason or another shut down the Towers before their task was finished. The fact that it’s keeping an eye of on events sheds more light on its character.

Lagi narrates the Japanese version of Panzer Dragoon Orta however nonsensical that may be.

The narrator of our version of the game is, of course, debatable. If the Heresy dragon wasn’t destroyed at the end of Panzer Dragoon Orta, then we’re forced to ask what pressing the button really did.

The voice actor that plasy the narrator and Heresy Program is the same is he not?

I think so. I’m glad that changes were made to the English version of Panzer Dragoon Orta by the creators themselves because it shows that they didn’t just focus on a Japanese audience, but gave each audience the consideration they deserve.

Yeah, that was my line of thought; if the “destruction” isn’t consistent with Team Andromeda’s original storyline, from a practical point of view it’s at least not a problem for English-speaking fans because it’s consistent with the storyline we know. If this is contradicted by any future games then it will become a flat-out error, of course - like the many inconsistencies in PD1 and PDZ.

I guess it comes down to where inconsistencies really start to matter: there’s no such thing as a perfect translation after all, so where should the line be drawn? Does it matter if a few lines here and there are changed, even if these changes don’t conflict with anything else in the story? The English translation of PDS seems to be a subtle re-write rather than a straight translation, after all: but if it’s a good and fully realised re-write that makes sense, it’s tricky to say when differences (i.e. the names of enemies, Azel’s confirmed love for Edge) become an issue.

Personally I’m happy to view the English PDS and PDO storylines as a valid option, simply because they do make sense in of themselves. They may differ from the original storylines in some ways, but I’d rather consider them to be fully-realised alternatives.

That’s the explanation I’m currently edging towards (that the Heresy Program was of the same nature as the golden dragon-program, presumably one of Sestren’s servents designed to enter into and guide a physical creature). I’m getting increasingly sure that we’ll never be told the truth, though. :slight_smile:

No matter what teasing drones in general say , I think it was pretty stupid of Smilebit/Sega to imply different narrators in the different PDO versions!


[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]

Lagi narrates the Japanese version of Panzer Dragoon Orta however nonsensical that may be.[/quote]

ok, so it is just accepted that the japanese narrator is lagi and there is no explanation for the final entry?

whew. i may be slow, but at least i’m not crazy