Actually, a number of founding fathers were athiests. Thomas Jefferson wanted religion and the government to have absolutly nothing to do with each other. If the founding fathers saw how our government was working, they would have a bloody “anrchist” revolution using terrorism as a weapon.
I firmly believe that the government should not have the power to say who can marry who.
This was what you said, Parn, in response to whether or not homosexuality was a choice. I don’t know any other way to interpret this other than, “Homosexuals can choose not to have sex, but still be homosexuals all they want.” If I am wrong, care to explain?
Despite the above statement, you said this, which I completely respect. I know you can’t dictate the way someone thinks, but you can dictate the way they behave and accept others in a social and public setting. This is a very noble way to approach this. *applauds
However…
You said:
BUT, the Bill of Rights says:
[quote=“Bill of Rights”]Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…[/quote]
Therefore, any laws passed that are based on any religious beliefs respect that religion, and are therefore unconstitutional. You’re right… it’s not freedom from religion in the public arena, but when dealing with the government, it is supposed to be. Just because there are religious ceremonies in the government today doesn’t make them constitutional. It’s just that most people in the US are Christian and, as Neil said, majority = power.
The whole thing about getting “under God” removed from the Pledge of Allegiance? Completely justified (in fact, people were talking about how it was “tradition,” but most people don’t realize that the “under God” part wasn’t added until the 1950’s, as well as the “In God We Trust” stuff on our money…). We cannot have an equal and fair government as long as one religion is favored over any others.
(This type of thing (meaning government endorsing any specific religion) was already declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court here: /doc/{t49523}/pageitems={body}/hit_headings/words=4/hits_only?… but nobody seems to care anyway. I mean, it’s only the Supreme Court, right?)
Tolerate? Yes. Like? No.
Here we go again, people jumping to conclusions.
A number of founding fathers WEREN’T atheists as well. As far as marriage is concerned, I really don’t care if homosexuals want to get married. I DO care however, that they’ve chosen to break the law and do what they want which has done nothing more than set their own movement back for decades. Their chosen tactics are foolish. They want to get married, fine. But handle trying to get things changed by acting as a respectable citizen.
I said homosexuality is wrong, and suddenly it is assumed that I’m anti-gay, against the idea of them getting married, the whole nine yards. It’d be really appreciated if I wasn’t grouped with people like those who run hateful websites such as godhatesfags.com.
As far as your post Abadd, quoting the earlier posts doesn’t really make sense to me at all, as I don’t see where the confusion factor comes in. They can have sex all they want, but it’s a choice they made, a choice I see as wrong. No more, no less. No hidden agendas, no nothing.
I’m well aware of what’s in the Constitution, and what people read into it, and I flat out don’t buy it. Our whole system of morals has ties to established religions, particularly Christianity. The Ten Commandments are something of a foundation for our own laws and morals, really.
Of course, this is usually the point where someone comes by and throws what I call a Spoiler Wrench? (recently happened on another message board that had a debate like this, on a different subject), with the line “but what ARE morals?” which always is when I pull out of the debate, since it always gets really stupid. I can’t stand circular logic arguments, such as “So what is existance?!? PROVE IT EXISTS!” and so forth. Blah.
Long story short, I think homosexuality is wrong. This does not equate to gay-bashing, oppressing them, preventing them from getting married, stopping them from having sex, or anything else. The end.
[quote=“Neil”]
2) Technically, there is nothing wrong with incest either, though I agree that I find it gross.[/quote]
Actually, the reason incest is illegal, aside from emotional issues (sister gets jealous when you get a new girlfriend, for example), is the fact that any inbred children will have double the vulnerability to diseases as their ancestors. Children born normally will have half of one parent’s genes and half the others. If both are from the same family, then they will inherit twice the amount of “faulty genes”.
As for homosexuality, I believe that, originally, it was an inbuilt part of humanity’s programming (damn the Ancients…) in order to stop overpopulation (I’m being serious!). Over time, however, a lot of people chose to be homosexual for lifestyle reasons, or because they just weren’t satisfied with being heterosexual. As for the reasoning behind bisexuals…I don’t know. Maybe they have a wider idea of what looks beautiful in people.
[quote=“Orta”]Dude, Paine finally told me what was up and why she wasn’t posting.
She’s been parentally “banned” from this site. They caught her on here, found out the vast majority on here was boys, and told her that if they caught her on here again, there’d be “dire consequences.”
She said for me to tell you, “Bye.” sighs And she also said to not blame her that her parents want her to be lesbians. growls[/quote]
DUDE… there are actally people like that in the world?
…
What is with her mum and dad?
Are they insaine?..
She cant come on this site because… there are boys on it?
Mann… thats scary. Id hate to meet her mum and dad!!!
She is odviously not from the UK… that just doesnt happen here
Where was she from?
Sweet Fancy Moses!
But, what you’re not understanding is that by saying homosexuality is wrong, you’re automatically relegating them to a lesser status, whether you intend to or not. It’s like if the rest of the world was saying “Christianity is wrong.” You’d still go on praying and going to Church, but the sentiments of the rest of the world would be pushing Christians down to a lesser status (I understand that you don’t feel this is the case, but I’m just explaining that the goal here is to not think of it as “wrong,” but rather, “not for you.”). The only reason why I quoted your earlier posts was to merely show you what I was basing my conclusions on. If I was incorrect, then you could just explain (as you have) what you meant with each statement.
I don’t know… maybe it’s just the wording. It’s good to hear that you aren’t against gay marriage. I wish that most people would at least share that sentiment. You’re a better man for it. (And I sincerely mean that).
The gays that have gotten married are merely doing what every oppressed people has done since the establishment of culture. When women wanted to be treated as equals, they began to break archaic laws that oppressed them. When Rosa Parks sat at front of the bus, she was making a statement. Gays getting married does the same thing. It may seem like a step backwards, but the subject has been in the public forum like never before, and people are forced to face the reality of the situation. The general populace may not like it, but in the case of civil rights, the general populace’s opinion doesn’t matter for diddly squat (I read somewhere that before blacks were given the right to marry, 98% of the people polled by the New York Times were against it. However, there was hardly any resistance once it was enacted, so there is still hope.)
I understand that many of the laws in America are based around certain religious teachings. However, the laws that have been enacted are not so much religious specifics, but rather, universal cultural constants; something that the majority of all human cultures have agreed upon since the beginning (don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t lie, etc.). That being said, regardless of the forefathers’ personal religious beliefs, they had enough foresight to include the First Amendment, in which it clearly states that the government cannot favor any given religion. Therefore, it is unconstitutional to ban gays from receiving the same benefits as heterosexuals (but, you seem to agree with this, so I now forget why I’m arguing this point :P)
[quote=“sharky”]
[quote=“Orta”]Dude, Paine finally told me what was up and why she wasn’t posting.
She’s been parentally “banned” from this site. They caught her on here, found out the vast majority on here was boys, and told her that if they caught her on here again, there’d be “dire consequences.”
She said for me to tell you, “Bye.” sighs And she also said to not blame her that her parents want her to be lesbians. growls[/quote]
DUDE… there are actally people like that in the world?
…
What is with her mum and dad?
Are they insaine?..
She cant come on this site because… there are boys on it?
Mann… thats scary. Id hate to meet her mum and dad!!!
She is odviously not from the UK… that just doesnt happen here
Where was she from?[/quote]
Me and her both from Kentucky over in the hillbilly region of the USA. And her parents are insane. She’s actually about to be taken from her parents because they can’t provide a “safe” environment for her and her little brothers. Hey, if she is taken, she can get back on here though.
You know what? Parn, you rock.
Seriously.
Perhaps it was a gag reflex to your earlier unexplained statment that you felt homosexuality was wrong, but you qualified it quite well. Upon rethinking the entire argument, I see where you’re coming from.
Like I said earlier, you can dictate how someone acts, but you can’t dictate how they think. Your relationship with God is your own, and your morality is your own. You aren’t trying to force it upon anyone else, and you feel that people should be given equal rights.
I wish the rest of humanity was as balanced in their faith.
Bravo, my friend. I have been defeated 
Heh, thanks.
But yeah… I’m pretty conservative as far as politics are concerned since I lean towards tradition, but I do not believe people should be oppressed or forced, since we all were given free will. Extremes on either side of the political fence is like the weather… neither too much heat or too much cold is enjoyable.
But a good debate nonetheless, even if it was brewed from a misunderstanding. =P
smiles
Glad that that is settled. Reading your debate made my head hurt. (Ow…)
[quote=“Orta”]
DUDE… there are actally people like that in the world?
…
What is with her mum and dad?
Are they insaine?..
She cant come on this site because… there are boys on it?
Mann… thats scary. Id hate to meet her mum and dad!!!
She is odviously not from the UK… that just doesnt happen here
Where was she from?
Me and her both from Kentucky over in the hillbilly region of the USA. And her parents are insane. She’s actually about to be taken from her parents because they can’t provide a “safe” environment for her and her little brothers. Hey, if she is taken, she can get back on here though.[/quote]
Figers… only in America could people be so protective over there children…
Its almost scary.
Be very, very glad you don’t have to live here. VERY glad. I’m planning to leave the country as soon as I can legally move.
come and live in England! you can help me assasinate Tony Blair!
Only after I do a little detour to Braga and kick Gehn’s ass. 
OH! OH! Can I come too?!?!
Hey! Get in line!
How many guns you need? I got a collection. Or a sword… laughs
right, and I have a water bottle, a mouth gaurd and a bandage… what a bout you Nevey?