It’s always nice when two debaters agree on something 
Indeed.
true very true. the only thing i have problems with is the price tags on games out at the mement. it only costs 10c to make a cd and then maybe
$500 to $1000 for the game rights. most games have a price tag of $100 to $200 when they first are released, they only cost about $5 max to make and send out to stores. so why sould we pay so much over head just so they can make lots of money. And then they tell us off if they find one of their games ripped on your computer. they can charge you up to $5000 per ripped game. And they wonder why so many poeple ripp their games. If everyone had the money to buy these games then there would not be any problems with ripping anymore cause everyone will have a copy. But in their eyes they will not have enough money and people like Bill Gates who will never in their life time now be able to run out of money are always saying i want more(even though he made his money by selling 90% of his internet sites to people for porn(Nice one BIll)).
You’re entering dangerous territory, bringing up this topic 
$0.10 to make a CD? By whose standards?
- Most games are on DVDs nowadays, not CDs, which costs much, much more.
- You’re not factoring in packaging costs (manuals, covers, disc labels)
- What do you mean by “game rights”? The only “rights” I can think of are 1st party licensing fees or licensing fees for movie/book/etc. based games. And in both cases, that’s WAAAAY too cheap.
$100-$200??? Where the heck are you buying your games? Unless, of course, you’re not talking about American Dollars… (edit: I just saw that you’re from New Zealand… so that could very well be true. But, even so, my points still stand).
Either way, you’re not taking into consideration the fact that built into game prices are the retail costs, marketing costs, production costs, distribution costs, development costs, 1st party licensing fees, etc. (and sometimes localization costs). Do you think games are made for free?
If the penalty for breaking the law was no greater than the cost of not breaking it, what point would the law have? If, for instance, you got caught stealing something, wouldn’t you potentially have to go to jail? The cost of punishment will always be greater than the cost of following the law. Otherwise, it would be impossible to enforce those laws.
Of course there wouldn’t be a problem. However, we live in what is called “the real world” where luxury items aren’t availble to everyone. If you can’t afford a luxury item, sure, you could always steal it, but you better be ready to face the consequences if you get caught. Heck, that’s true even with non-luxury items. Can’t afford food? Well, you either better get money, find a homeless shelter, or you can always steal it. But, if you steal it, you’ll still get punished for the crime, regardless of the fact that you were starving to death. How is stealing a game any different?
And the comment about always wanting more money? What do you think a business is for? Losing money? Do you think investors want the companies they invest in to settle for “breaking even” or “losing money”? What happens to the stocks at that point? The price goes down, so everyone sells. Then the company goes out of business. Then guess what? No more games from that company.
And Bill Gates and porn? Huh? Do you have any proof of this? Bill Gates gained his money by strong-arming the competition into following his business plan, and making Windows pretty much the only viable PC platform to develop for. If you had everyone in the world buying your products, licensing your products, etc., you’d be a multi-billionaire, too.
5$ to make a game? LOL
Hey Abadd, are the Sega Offices actually a painted cardboard box?
And are you and the rest Staff being paid in spoonfulls of boiled beans?
LOL, I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself, that was just hillarious XD
Majai, you do realise that games don’t grow on trees do you? A large ammount of people are involved in the creation process, from programmers to artists to designers to whatever you can think of, as many different ppl as are involved in the process of making a movie if not more than that. (since now we see directors etc helping in game creation, for example with MGS: Twin Snakes)
Obviously all these people have to be paid just as any other worker has to be paid… And then there’s all the rest things Abadd mentioned…
Is it just me or did Shenmue cost actual millions of dollars to create? Wasn’t it touted as the game with the highest budget for the development ever or something?
No comment on the rest things lol, Abadd covered everything I guess, maybe I shouldn’t have even posted this… ah well too late now X)
PS: I haven’t slept since the night before so don’t mind me till tommorow that I’ll hopefully be rested lol…
Sega office? Why would I know? 
But actually, most games cost millions and millions to produce.
Shenmue’s budget was definitely up there, but not the most expensive (although, it might have been at the time).
If you include licensing fees and whatnot, games like Enter the Matrix blow Shenmue’s budget away (I think for Enter the Matrix, even without the license, it cost more…)
Hmm really? And it still ended up so, well… crap? It felt like a medium budget title imo…
Maybe you are thinking of the still in development The Matrix Online?
Nope.
Amazing, isn’t it?
But, then again, you also have to remember the amount of baggage that came along with the license: having to use expensive Hollywood actors, which also means expensive talent agencies to pay, etc.
Matrix Online is probably expensive, too, but I wouldn’t guess it cost as much. But, most MMORPGs are extremely expensive, anyway, just because it’s the nature of the beast.
I agree that the punishment for ripping games is a little extreme. Distributing pirated software carries a greater penalty if a person doing so is caught I believe.
Personally, I couldn’t care less about people who place more value on money than human life. I think the sooner we realise we live in a capatalist hell where no one cares about anyone but themselves, the more prepared we are to face it. I’d actually like to know how much piracy hurts the games industry before anyone condemns those responsible for it as if software piracy was an unambiguous crime against humanity deserving of nothing less than the harshest of punishments.
Let me get this straight… you’re complaining that a $5,000 penalty is too harsh for a crime that is completely avoidable and revolves around pure luxury items?
This is in comparison to what, traffic tickets?
The issue here is not money vs. human life. If you know that there is a $5,000 penalty for being caught, and you know you can’t afford it, tell me again… why is it you choose to commit the crime in the first place? You blame the punishment for being too harsh, rather than take a look at whether or not you actually did something wrong in the first place?
No one cares about themselves? Indeed. Because we all know that pirating software is done for the good of the people!
Damage against the game industry? Just look on Kazaa. Count the number of games, multiply each time the game is downloaded by $50. That’ll give you a rough ballpark figure (and don’t give me the argument “I wasn’t going to buy it anyway” because if you weren’t interested in it enough to buy it, why would you bother spending the time to download it, burn it, then play it? why not rent it? there’s such a thing as internet game rentals. why not borrow it from a friend?)
And “harshest of punishments”??? I suppose this is in comparison to, I dunno, having your hand cut off in certain extremist Islamic cultures for petty theft?
Life isn’t fair and while some people will resign themselves to that fate, others will always play by their own rules.
Piracy is a problem bourne of a certain mentality, which for all intents and purposes, isn’t going to change when money ostensibly comes before everything else in the minds of anyone trying to stem the tide of free software. On the other hand, while some people might defend piracy as a fate the games industry has brought upon itself (for whatever reason), others won’t bother at all. Seeing things you can’t obtain through law-abiding means because the system we’re supposed to worship has screwed them will always spell crime. Why live in poverty and work 24/7 when you can join a gang (for the want of a better analogy)? Screw the system.
You’re obviously very passionate about this, but is everything really so black and white? What if software piracy only cut into a negligable percentage of the games industry’s profits? Would you be so willing to adopt a zero tolerance policy towards it then?
The way I see it the punishment for downloading games is indeed akin to cutting the hand off of a starving man for stealing food. Though the two aren’t quite the same (there’s an understatement), the punishment for the respective crime is extreme.
- You’re comparing those in poverty to people who obviously are not in poverty. How many people do you know who are in poverty that have computers (with DVD burners, no less), internet accounts, game hardware, etc.? Is it “the system’s fault” that people cannot control their own impulses? Sure, we’re all bombarded with marketing every waking minute of the day. But, you don’t see most civilized people breaking into the nearest Best Buy to steal that 70" plasma TV just because they can’t afford it. Make all the arguments of “the cost of games” etc. you want, but like I’ve been saying over and over, there is a BIG difference between items that are necessities (food, clothing, etc.) to things that are luxuries (games, DVDs, computers, etc.).
While this is going off on a tangent, the issue with the reasoning of “joining a gang” is still flawed at best. You’re only implementing a temporary fix. You’re still living in the same conditions, still trapped in the same cycle… you just don’t have to work within the system (even though you’re still trapped by it). Working hard and educating yourself is the only way out (unless you’re a rap star). If two guys walk into a job interview, one speaks like a thug, and one speaks intelligently, guess who is gonna get the job?
But, back to your point, if it’s a communist state that you want to live in, we all know how well those have worked out.
-
Of course I’d be more relaxed about the issue if the damage was negligible. However, that’s a hypothetical question. That’s sorta like punching someone in the face, then asking them, “Now, would you be less angry at me if I didn’t punch you so hard?” It already has affected the industry. The question is pointless, other than for discussion for discussion’s sake.
-
The example you gave is irrelevant for the points I made in 1) above. There is an intrinsic difference between things that are needed for survival, and things of luxury. (However, in the eyes of the law, it cannot make this differentiation, because again, as I’ve stated numerous times, laws cannot be in a gray area, or else they are too difficult to enforce, and too unfair…)
Also, the extreme nature of the punishments are vastly different. A $5,000 fine is something that can be paid off (even if it takes years), and can be recovered from. Cutting off a hand? Not likely to recover very well from that.
Do I think the punishment is harsh? Indeed. But would you think $4000 was less harsh? How about $3000? Where do you stop?
What it really, really boils down to is that nobody can justify pirating games for any other reason than, “I want to play that game, but don’t want to pay for it.” And at that point, it’s simply a matter of choice: do you commit the crime, full knowing the potential punishment? Or do you tighten your belt, save your allowance, and buy the game like everyone else in years past had to.
I won’t argue with you there. However, I really would like to know to what extent software piracy plagues the industry.
To me, as an outside observer, it seems as if it is greed that has gripped the games industry. Perhaps I am mistaken but it has certainly made its presence felt.
I’ve heard this many, many times, but never have I heard any real arguments to back this up. What gives you this impression? Is it the price of games? If so, then why do you feel they are inflated, other than the fact that you think games are too expensive?
Games aren’t something that a couple people build in their spare time. The production of games is nearing Hollywood proportions, in terms of the amount of manpower and money that is required to produce them. Hollywood has the advantage of having the box office, in addition to DVD sales (not to mention being able to appeal to a much wider audience than games… but that’s a discussion for another day).
Is it the $5,000 penalty that’s issued if you’re caught pirating? To my knowledge, that isn’t given to game companies (I could be wrong on this, though). As with all penal fines, the government gets that money.
So, what is it that has led you to believe game companies are “gripped by greed”?
(I cannot give you numbers for the amount of estimated damage piracy has caused to industry, but let it suffice to say that it’s in the millions.)
Why do I believe greed has gripped the games industry?
Well, I could use EA as an example of a “large company” that has fired whole studios and axed games just because focusing on the development of something else would be more profitable. Greed has everything to do with how it has controlled Westwood Studios. You could argue that EA simply has good business sense, but cancelling good games in favour of rubbish yet popular ones is detrimental to the games industry. If anything, EA is holding back creativity. I wonder how much blood EA can squeeze from the rock that is the Command And Conquer name when the games continue to go downhill. Let’s not even mention the fact that EA never supported the Dreamcast for a reason related to Sony and money.
Large companies make enough money to expand and stuff their gluttonous shareholders with so much cash that they threaten to explode. Why are they so concerned with piracy? Does it hurt them significantly or is greed rearing its ugly head once again?
Games are expensive, which is why I often wait for them to drop in price or buy them second hand. I’m actually waiting for the Playstation 2 to go out of fashion before buying one; I refuse to pay over ?100 for such an outdated piece of hardware.
Do you honestly believe that EA produces nothing but crap? Take a look at, say, Lord of the Rings: Return of the King. It’s a simple action game, but it’s beautifully done. Great gameplay, great use of the license, and great merging of mediums. How about James Bond: Everything or Nothing? Yet another licensed product, but ultimately, amazing presentation. No other game has had that level of cinematic quality to its presentation.
How about Medal of Honor? Fantastic war game, with presentation that is tops amongst FPSes. Madden? While I’m not a sports game fanatic, you cannot deny its quality. Need for Speed: Underground is another example of a fantastic game.
Shall I go on?
There is no telling why EA closes down certain companies, or cancels certain games. There are an infinite number of possible reasons, though, yes… money is often at the crux of them. However, there isn’t necessarily some man in a Armani suit, sitting in some penthouse suite, rubbing his hands together gleefully, complimenting himself on a job well done. It’s usually due to a multitude of factors: team members leaving, projects being poorly managed, teams failing to meet deadlines, producers/teams failing to live up to promised expectations, etc.
Spend any amount of time in the industry, and you begin to see that it’s not as simple as, “Let’s make a cool game, everyone! It’s gonna rawk!!!” and everyone lives happily ever after.
If anything, the one thing that EA is very good at is management. They are extremely trusted by retailers and by consumers in general because EA is very aware of what their brand means to people, and will make sure to try and release only games the support the quality that their brand image stands for.
Again, though, you’re assuming things. You’re assuming that everything they do is for money, without actually having proof beyond your own gut feelings and assumptions. And even if the decisions were purely based on money, how is that different from 90% of the corporations out there? Everything is driven by sales. Because, unless you’ve got an endless amount of cash, eventually you go out of business. And nobody wants that. Not even gamers.
I can’t debate as eloquently as Abadd, so I’ll leave the better part of that to him, but I cough work in the gaming industry too so my opinion may be considered biased. Piracy for any reason is still piracy and possibly one of the worst things I ever ran across was a fan who had pirated a game I worked on.
He told me (knowing I had worked on the game) that his friend had burned him a copy of this game and he “loved” it, but he just couldn’t afford to buy it. What could I say to that? If he really loved it he would have found a way to buy it. If he would just save a little bit each week from his allowance/paycheck he would have eventually have been able to buy a copy. It’s a matter of priorities, what a person wants to spend their money on, and I didn’t like hearing anything about adoring a game while also hearing that it wasn’t worth working hard enough to buy. That’s my livelihood he’s talking about and I don’t make gobs of money. I’m a cog in the machine and there are a lot of cogs who have to be paid for the creation of each game.
EA is probably not the best example to use since they are doing fairly well right now. They’re in better shape than just about everybody. The companies you’ll want to look at are the ones who create games you like, but are stuggling to stay afloat. Those are the ones where a lost sale really means something.
There is another thing to keep in mind as well. A lot of times gamers will only recognize a publisher’s name on a product and not the developer. I don’t think that’s a problem here, where the board members are aware of Smilebit and Sega as different entities, but EA makes use of developers too and “sticking it” to a big fat corporation could mean hitting a smaller developer working out of a converted warehouse as well.
BTW, I do think games are more expensive than I’d like, so I understand not wanting to pay full price for something, but like Geoff I wait for them to drop in price. Sales and coupons are my friends.
Seriously… All you need to do is be bargain conscious. Hell, if my gf can do it when she shops for clothes, you can do it when you shop for games.
Have you tried shopping in the “Greatest Hits” sections?
How about waiting a couple of months for the game to go on sale? How about searching the internet (I recommend cheapassgamer.com) for various deals?
Best Buy has these great gift cards for gamers that you can purchase for any amount, and it comes with a $5 coupon. You can only use one per game-related item purchased (and it has to be an item $20 or more), but what I do is go to the store, buy a gift certificate (it has to be the “gamer” kind) for $5, then I use the $5 gift certificate and the $5 coupon to purchase a game. That turns any Greatest Hits (or Platinum Hits or Players’ Choice) into a $15 game. Awesome. (I’m also signed up for Best Buy Rewards Zone, so I get $5-$10 coupons regularly…)
Seriously… just be a little more selective about what you spend your money on, and you’ll be surprised at the amount of games you can afford.
I’m gonna risk sounding like an old geezer saying this, but when I was in high school, I had my own job, and I bought my own friggin’ computer back then (they were $2,000+), and I was still able to afford paying for my own games, etc.
Nah, you don’t sound old just responsible. I got a job, and as a result have purchased an Xbox, PS2, GCN, computer, and various arcade hardwares + games (my newest gaming hobby) over the past few years. Its helps though that i live at home and have parents kind enough to pay my college bill (though i have paid for one semester myself). Still its not that hard to get a job, if you want the stuff bad enough buy it.
Personally i think $50 is a bit much for a game, but like you said i buy used and wait awhile to get my games (unless its a must have title). In fact i just purchased Viewtiful Joe brand new and sealed from Ebgames.com for $29.99, now thats a great price for a stellar game. Part of being a “hardcore” gamer is being thrifty.
I actually give EA the credit for destroying the Command And Conquer series and turning it into a cashcow. EA won’t even allow Westwood Studios to continue the series they started in a manner they see fit. Instead the C&C games have become mindless, but because the name alone is so widely recognized, it will sell anything. This is where money comes first.
EA actually bought Westwood Studios 2/3 the way through the development of Tiberium Sun, at which point it was delayed for some time. The fact of the matter is Tiberium Sun was one of the most eagerly awaited PC games of its time and EA bought the developer to cash in on that game and the name. Indeed, EA certainly knows how to make money.
There was a time when developers like Westwood Studios and even Sega stayed afloat by making the games they wanted to develop whether the public wanted those games or not. It just so happens that both companies produced successful franchises. Now not catering to mainstream audiences all the time means instant death. It’s a shame we’ll never see another RPG from Westwood like Blade Runner, or perhaps even Shenmue 3 from Sega.
As for piracy, there’s no end in sight as far as I can tell.