How do you feel about piracy and software licences?

Mature Discussion
21

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
It is not the gamer’s right to pirate that game, but is it right for them not to have that right? :)[/quote]

Yes. It’s called capitalism :slight_smile: That’s the way things work. If I create a product, put a price on it, unless you are willing to pay that price, you don’t have the right to own it. Pure and simple. If my product is priced more than it’s worth, no one will buy it, and it will put me out of business. If I have a product that people are willing to pay the price for, I make a profit. That’s how the system works.

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
As you put it, it sucks if a gamer can not get their hands on a rare or sold out title and if they can’t then there is absolutely no harm to anyone in pirating it. The potential for a sale isn’t there, because the game isn’t avalible. Understandably, the laws need to be there, but my concience will always be clear when downloading a ROM or ISO and that’s the main thing that matters.[/quote]

I never said there’s no harm. Most people who then pirate the game would not bother to go out and purchase a copy if/when it became available to them. That’s a lost sale. That’s lost money.

And while to you (and every individual), the ultimate decision comes down to a moral choice, that doesn’t make it “right” to do. You may be okay, personally, with the decision, but it doesn’t make it right. See the difference?

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
Not if you weren’t going to buy the game anyway. Sure there are people who only pirate, and would never buy a game unless they couldn’t pirate, but there are those who will copy a game because they couldn’t afford it, wanted to try it out, or a number of other reasons.[/quote]

If you weren’t going to buy the game anyway, then that doesn’t give you the right to play it for free. Rent the game. Borrow it from a friend. If you weren’t going to buy the game anyway, then why would you bother downloading it and playing it? You obviously have interest in the game at that point, so you owe the company money if you want to play it.

None of the reasons you give at the end justify piracy. Can’t afford it? Like I said earlier, you don’t have the right to own the game. Want to try it out? Play the demo, rent it, read the review. Remember, the motto of capitalism is “buyer beware.”

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
I understand that you’re just voicing your opinion, no worries there. But the statement about greed could be reversed quite easily. I could say that companies are being greedy by basically saying “If I can’t have it (the money) then why should anybody get to experience it?” Obviously this statement makes out game companies like a spoilt child, which I don’t believe is true, but it is a simular form of reasoning. There’s nothing greedy about wanting to play a game (and doing so) that you couldn’t afford otherwise if it doesn’t deprive anyone else of anything.[/quote]

Companies being greedy? Companies exist for one primary reason: to make money. That doesn’t make them greedy. They exist to put money in the pockets of its employees and owners, to put food on their tables, etc. Otherwise, there’s no point. Secondary reasons vary from company to company. Some do it for love, some do it to diversify their product lines, etc. But, it all comes down to money. Why is it wrong for a company to expect consumers to pay for the products they produce? Companies have the right to charge for their products, but consumers do not have the right to acquire those products for free. It is not a two-way street.

How is it not greedy to play a game that you didn’t pay for, solely for the fact that you just wanted to play it? I go back to my car example. Is it not wrong to “borrow” someone’s car just because you wanted to drive it? If you return the car, it doesn’t deprive anyone of anything, right? Same thing with games. You pay for the right to own the game. Without paying that, you do not have the right to own the game. Plain and simple. If you can’t afford it, or don’t think it’s worth it, then you don’t play the game.

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
There isn’t always a legal means. Importing games, for example, is borderline legal (as far as I know, or is it actually illegal?). Renting old or import games usually isn’t possible (or in the case of some places it’s not possible to rent Xbox games, ask Arcie).[/quote]

When there isn’t a legal means to try out a game, then you must rely on reviews, talking to friends, etc. When you go to the store to buy food, are you allowed to try out all the food before you buy it? Sometimes, you gotta take a chance, as unfair as that sounds. Again, like I said earlier, “buyer beware.” That’s why when you make purchases, they should be educated purchases. And if you don’t like the game, sell it back to the store, and use the credit towards another purchase.

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
I’m certainly not supportive of game companies going out buisness because of piracy. I’m always keen to support a creative games that are released and can tell you that I’ve bought at least 10 brand new Xbox games in the last year. But if I were a game designer I would rather someone experience the game through an illegal copy than not at all. Of course I’d rather they purchase the game new, but sometimes that isn’t an option.[/quote]

On a personal level, if I knew someone, I’d give them a copy of the game for free. I’d just want people to play it. But, would I want thousands of strangers to play the game I spent 3 years of my life making, for free? Hell no.

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]
Perhaps they couldn’t afford it at the time, but when the sequel came out they could. Or the original game was copied after the time when it was avaliable (for example, playing a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga might encourage someone to go out a buy Panzer Dragoon Orta which could only be a postive thing). But I see your point about this being unlikely, or that it very rarely helps the game industry.[/quote]

Exactly. I’m not saying that it cannot have any positive impact, but the negatives faaaaar outweight the potential positives, so it just doesn’t make sense to say “piracy is okay” based on a few exceptions. (And again, just because someone can’t afford it, doesn’t mean they have a right to it…)

22

If you borrowed someone’s car without permission that would be invading their privacy. Suppose they suddenly noticed that it was missing while you were out driving it, or when you returned it the car wasn’t in the same condition? Borrowing someone’s car would effect the owner of the car because his or her physical property would be tampered with. Copying a game (that the gamer wasn’t go to buy anyway) would not effect the game companies in any way. It’s similar with the sampling food example - someone would have to pay for the food that was sampled, yet buy coping a game it doesn’t cost a cent.

I fear this is becoming a circular argument. You quite nicely put it “the ultimate decision comes down to a moral choice”. It’s okay with my morals to copy a game that I wasn’t going to buy in the first place, even if it’s bending the rules. Yes, there are many many cases where piracy can harm a company, and there are individuals who do not care about the success of these companies at all, but there are also people who are simply rogues with good intentions. Most rules or laws are put in place to protect someone or something - and piracy laws do that - however there are some situations where breaching them causes no harm and because of that, my conscience will be clear. I love gaming and gladly support the industry by buying new games, but I think there is a time and place for piracy.

23

Or good natured rogues. :slight_smile:

The clamp down on piracy can be attributed to nothing but unadulterated greed, or perhaps I am mistaking that for the actual raison d’etre of every games developer in this day and age. However, a person who earns a minimum wage and has lived a life almost destitute of luxury is hardly going to view software piracy as unconscionable, especially when it costs companies like EA, whose share holders would sell their own mothers for money, a negligable percentage of their profits.

Pirating one of their games isn’t going to put EA out of business and big businesses dominate the games undustry – businesses that would sooner see you sent to prison than lose profits to piracy. I have no sympathy for them.

24

You see, people always use companies like EA as examples to justify piracy, talking of corporate greed, and whatnot.

You have to remember that 95% of the industry is NOTHING like EA in terms of capital, size, power, etc. While pirating may not hurt EA all that much, since their games obviously still sell enough to make a considerable profit, what about companies like Inus, that made the sublime Gitaroo Man? How many people didn’t bother to buy that game, but rather, simply downloaded a copy? How much money did Inus lose? And because of it, we may never see a game like it again? How about games like Rez? Skies of Arcadia?

You can’t just take one extreme example like EA and make it apply to the rest of the industry. That’s like saying “all cats are orange,” then finding a single orange cat, and saying, “See? I told you.”

The clamp down on piracy is NOT about corporate greed. It is about companies defending the right to make a profit off of games and services they provide to consumers. The consumer does NOT have the right to acquire these products without paying the company. Period. If you don’t think the product is worth the amount that is being charged for it, you don’t buy it. End of story.

Good-intentioned rogues? I’m not saying that pirates are all horrible people. I’m saying that it’s not a justifiable crime. Good-intentioned rogues are people like Robin Hood. He stole from the extremely wealthy to provide food and clothing for those in poverty. How does a game pirate fit that description? It’s stealing from companies to provide a luxury for one’s self. Key word: luxury. It’s not like game companies are lying about development costs and over-charging for something that is a necessity of life (like oil companies do). It is a cost-driven, market-driven price that has developed over years and years of trial and error. If games were that ridiculously priced, then you figure, no game company should ever go out of business, because they’d be making soooooo much money, right?

As for the stealing the car example, it’s not about invading privacy. It’s about taking someone’s goods without their permission. You wouldn’t be charged with invasion of privacy, you’d be charged with grand theft auto (at least in the US). Even if you had every intention of returning the car exactly as you left it, it’s a crime. The reason why I used that example is because “no harm is done,” right? As for the food example given, that example is more like game demos. Food samples given away are known costs that a company consciously decides to incur as a part of their marketing program. Game companies do the same thing with game demos. Copying a game, as you put, does not incur a negative cost on the company, but it denies that company a potential sale. You now have a copy of that company’s product in your possession that you did not purchase. You owe that company money for playing their game. Pure and simple. There is no arguing around it. Sugarcoat it all you want, but that is the hard truth.

Someone who lives their life on minimum wage cannot afford luxuries. Yes, I understand. But, and this is going to sound extremely cold, that is the nature of capitalism. The division between the haves and the have nots. While I personally may live a decent, middle-class life, I cannot afford many of the luxuries that the rich endulge in. Does that give me the right to those luxuries? Does that give me the right to steal whatever I want? No. No no no no no. The reason why these companies would rather see you put in prison before losing profits is because 1) you’re breaking the law, plain and simple. 2) Those profits feed thousands of families, and continue to put more games on the shelves for everyone’s entertainment. My own pockets are not lined with cash. Hell, I drive a beat-up '95 Honda Civic. Yet, it hurts me personally when I hear of people pirating games that I have spent thousands of hours working on.

There are those in the industry who work VERY hard SOLELY for the love of making games. There are those in the industry who work 100 hour work weeks with NO overtime pay (and the base pay is hardly worth the skills that many of these people have), solely to put out a quality game, have people enjoy it, and to pay the rent and put food on their table. But, in return, they expect these people to pay the price of entry. The developers put in their blood, sweat, and tears into each game (well, most…), and it’s a personal insult when someone downloads a game with the excuse “I wasn’t going to buy it anyway.” Do you think these people sleep under their desks, ignore loved ones for weeks at a time, and work through vacations and holidays, just for people to play their games for free?

If you think that piracy is at all justifiable, you live in a fantasy world. You live in a land where games grow off trees, waiting to be plucked by bushy-eyed gamers who think games magically appear out of nowhere.

No, piracy isn’t going to put EA out of business. But, it’s going to funnel the industry into a bunch of cookie-cutter games where only the games that are extremely market-relevant sell. It’s going to be a market of main-stream, million-seller hits, and nothing more. Nobody is going to be willing to take a risk on bizarre and creative ideas anymore, because it is impossible to make a profit. And personally, that saddens me.

25

as far as I see this seems to be a debate inbetween Solo and Abadd:) umm…from what I’ve read so far (and that’s not a great deal due to my itense lazyness) I dunno, I agree with solo on some of the stuff said.

26

Abadd you are suspect in this matter :slight_smile:

27

Actually, I’m the only here who can speak from fact, rather than personal assumption.

28

I don’t personally download games and burn them to CDRs, but I know people who do, and I’m not averse to owning a free copy of a game. Who would be?

I always buy the games I want to play and thereby support my favourite developers (after all, they wouldn’t exist without a fanbase willing to buy their games), but I honestly cannot see the harm in pirating a game every now and then, especially if I never intended to buy that game in the first place. Acquiring a copy of a game I wasn’t going to buy means the developer hasn’t lost a potential sale. Where’s the flaw in that logic? It’s not like I stole an actual copy of the game from a shop, because that would translate into a lost sale.

It is the people who pirate games they want to play instead of purchasing them who harm the games industry.

People often turn to crime when they are shown things they cannot have. That’s called sewing the seeds of discontent. The irony is most game pirates can probably afford the games they pirate; I tend to think of those who can’t.

29

I agree with Abadd on this one.
I wont say I’ve never done it but I won’t try to fool myself thinking what I have done is “Fair” or “just” either.
Just cos I wouldn’t buy the game it doesn’t mean I have the right to have it for free. It’s still theft, it makes no difference that I don’t steal an actual copy of the game but instead I get the game in digital form.
I didn’t pay it’s worth for it therefor I have NO RIGHT on the game whatsoever(assuming it’s not abandonware or freeware ofcourse).
What about shareware games for example? What if you download one of those and crack it? Isn’t it theft still even tho you didn’t steal a physical copy? It’s digital property that you normally and legally have no right on until you pay it’s value. You got the game installed on your pc one way or another without paying what the game is worth. Theft in both cases.

forgot a verb in a sentence, that’s all the edit is so no need to reread it -lol

30

Abadd,you are just giving your opnion.It doesn’t matter if you are “in” or not.

31

Actually, I beg to differ.

For the most part, I state the law and the facts of life.

The parts that were just personal opinion were labelled as such, and even then, they are opinions that have been created through research and observations on the subject from every point of view. They aren’t opinions based solely on personal morals and beliefs, nor are they opinions that came about because they “felt right,” as most justifications for piracy are.

There is a difference between stating personal opinion based solely on a gut feeling, and stating facts intermingled with opinion that are based on hours and hours of research and insight into the matter.

32

The way I see it, it’s alright to break a few rules here and there if nobody loses from it. Say for example, a 14 year old wants to see a war movie that’s just come out at the cinema. The movie is restricted for 16 year olds and over. Now this “kid” has probably seen things just as gory on the news or other places so there’s no reason why he shouldn’t see the movie, it’s not going to disturb him and make him go and shoot somebody… however according to the law, he isn’t allowed to see it. I see nothing wrong with him pretending to be old enough and going and enjoying the movie, even though it isn’t his right to do so.

Another example could be driving in a car. Say, you’re in the middle of the country on a flat, straight stretch of road. There are no other signs of life on the road for miles ahead so the driver decides to go over the speed limit for a bit of a thrill. There’s no chance of anyone being hurt but obviously it would be differcult to make a law saying “You’re allowed to drive 20KM over the speed limit so long on you’re on this exact piece of the road and no other cars are in sight.” So the laws have to exist, they have to draw the line somewhere, but that doesn’t necessarily make someone a bad or greedy person for breaking them.

33

The examples you give are good ones for situations in which “breaking the law” isn’t necessarily a horrendous crime against humanity, but they lack the aspects of consumer/merchant relationships that are at the crux of this issue.

In the case of running the stop sign, sure… it doesn’t hurt anyone. But you can understand why the law is there.

However, in the case of pirating games, again, there are the creators you have to think about. When you run a stop sign, you don’t have to worry about whether or not the stop sign loses anything by running it, how many people are running that stop sign, or whether or not continually running that stop sign will put that stop sign out of business. Every time you pirate a game, even if you “didn’t intend on buying it,” you are denying another person (or rather, a group of people) their right to profit from a sale. You are experiencing the game they made, the text they wrote, the music they composed, etc. for free. You are experiencing the information they put into that disk without paying for it. Therein lies the difference.

(And actually, in the case of the child sneaking into the movie theater, is it okay if the parents then sue the movie theater for letting their child see an “inappropriate” movie?)

34

I see what you’re saying Abadd, but I didn’t mean all forms of piracy, just cases where there is no way that the developers could have had a potential sale (for example an out of date game that wasn’t being sold anymore, or when the gamer didn’t have enough money to buy it anyway). Again, this doesn’t have an negative effect on humanity, it’s not going to put the the developer out of buisness, nor contibute to putting the developer out of buisness.

I’ll give you an example where I might copy a game. Say I was at a LAN party, and we were playing a game of Half-Life. Some one says “lets play Battlefield 1942”, however only a couple of the people in the room have it. It’s just a simple matter of sending the game over the network (which doesn’t even use a CDR) so that everyone can play a few rounds of the game and enjoy themselves. Often I won’t even play the game again… usually I buy the games I’m planning to play all the way through, such as Shenmue 2 or Panzer Dragoon Orta. But for the rare times when we’re trying out lots of games on multiplayer, it doesn’t seem fair for someone to sit out and watch. Yes, there are site licenses, but often it’s a matter of “bring your own games”.

You’re quite right about the movie theater being sued by the guy’s parents, I hadn’t thought of that. That’s a situation where someone else is effected, whereas the car and piracy issues are a bit different.

35

Abadd, you were saying creators and stuff. Well, they are losing money, but not too much of it. I mean, think, one games price out of all the ones being bought by people isn’t going to make him raving made and I know, not just one person is doing it, but that’s what the law is there for. It stops huge numbers of people from doing it. If you think about it, no law actually stops everyone from doing what the law states. There is always a few people who break it. If the creators are only losing out on a v.small amount of money compared to what’s coming in, whats the harm? a few people get to play a game…the law stands to stop bad things, but their is always going to be someone who breaks it, so if some people do and the creators lose out on small money, no real harm really…

36

Umm accepting the fact that laws will always be broken doesn’t do anythin to justify piracy now does it? And the point of Abadd’s posts so far was to show that even tho piracy IS done for various reasons it’s still wrong. Not to say something to make all of this stop.
We might think that hey it’s sony stuff that get pirated the most so who cares! Well Let’s not forget Sega is a multiplatform developer now therefor they get their games pirated as well, how does that make you feel? If you find it wrong for sega or any developer you love, then it’s wrong for everyone. Even developers you hate.
Like I said in my first post, I won’t say that I never did anything of the sort BUT I will NOT try to fool myself thinking that it’s something “fair” or “just” or something that is “OK” because it’s always gonna happen by me or other people.

Another example. 3D studio max is WAY too expensive therefor there is no chance of me EVER buying it, does that make it right for me to pirate it when there’s cheaper alternatives I could possibly afford?
Same way someone said he wouldn’t buy a game anyway. So why pirate it? Buy just the games you want and if you just want to kill time until the next good game you actually buy then kill it by doing something other than playing pirated games you have no right on. The alternative in my example was other cheaper programs. The alternative in this is spending your time doing other activities.
The only one that said something decent about this was Solo which concetrated on games that there is NO WAY to get your hands on legally.
I agree that this could be considered “Fair”, still by laws and company decisions it still isn’t. If companies wanted they could dim that software as abandonware giving everyone the right to get them legally. Still they don’t do that because there’s always the possibility of making money from it. For example who would ever buy Sega’s Saturn games for the PC with that emulator if those games had been awarded abandonware status earlier and anyone interested in them had them already?
And even piracy of games like that still possibly leads to lost sales.Why buy a new game if you get all those older classic games to keep you occupied for free?
Piracy is wrong, people just keep doing it for one or another reason but none of those reasons ever make it OK within today’s society atleast.
Morally and legally.

37

Alex, what you did with 3D Studio Max seems fair. We’re talking about an industry standard piece of software here. If you’re planning on going into 3D modelling for a job that chances are you’d be using this program. It makes sense to start learning it now rather than something else that isn’t industry standard. This is another issue entirely from games, because it’s something you need to be have in order to advance your skills in that area… ultimately something that would benefit that area of the computing industry. When it comes to educational programs that will help students… well, companies need to except that students and people training aren’t willing to --nor do they have the money to-- pay large amounts for these products. Yes, Microsoft has started special deals where students can get any of their operating systems or programming tools for free while they’re studying (and that’s a start) but you’re still left with those who working with graphics and multimedia with no reasonable or legal way to aquire the software they need.

38

Solo: [/utopian mode] I completely agree. For instance, some friends and I were working on a NWN mod, and someone had brought their computer who didn’t have a copy of the game, so we just installed it, had them help us on the mod, then she uninstalled it when she was done. Then went out and bought the game. Sure, there are people with good intentions, and sometimes convenience outweighs all.

[utopian mode] But, one cannot justify piracy based on the noble actions of a few. I don’t doubt that some people just do things like the one you mentioned, but alas, that is the vast minority of cases, according to research. Most piracy is done via downloading game disk images off the Net, and burning them to CD.

Berserker: “Well, they are losing money, but not too much of it.”

What is this based on? Can you provide a link or anything to support this claim? How do you know how much money is being lost? I’ve seen figures for sales for even a game like GTA3 that has sold 5 million copies say that there are upwards of 8-9 million copies in circulation. Assuming that there are 3 million pirated copies in circulation, that’s $50 x 3 million… $150 million in sales. Small numbers? I think not (sure, that’s an extreme case, but it’s one I know off hand).

“If the creators are only losing out on a v.small amount of money compared to what’s coming in, whats the harm?”

Again, prove this statement. How do you know how much money is being made vs. how much is lost to piracy? And the harm is that if a company doesn’t make enough profit, they either go out of business, lay off employees, or stop growth. And in a capitalist market, when a company isn’t growing, investors lose interest, stock prices then drop, and the company has to down-size… thus resulting in the aforementioned lay-offs.

No harm done?

“the law stands to stop bad things, but their is always going to be someone who breaks it, so if some people do and the creators lose out on small money, no real harm really…”

So, are you saying that laws are more “guidelines” that don’t need to be followed, really? So, can I go into your house, take a few bucks, and since it’s such a small sum of money, “no harm” done? Just because people are willing to break laws doesn’t mean those laws no longer matter. The people who break it must do so knowing that if they get caught, they must face the consequences. And it’s always easy to say that no harm is done when you aren’t on the side that is being harmed.

39

Yep, I totally agree. Not all forms of piracy can be deemed harmless, nor justified… the statistics you posted on GTA3 prove that. Unfortunately there are far too many cases where people will say “Well I can pirate that, so there’s no need to buy it”. However, there are some forms of piracy that are harmless and sometimes helpful (e.g. the NWN mod example you posted). So one could say that the way individuals choose to use the piracy tools that they’ve been given determines the harm caused. I totally agree that if someone can afford a game, and it is a game they are planning to play all the way through (not just trying it out), they should really support the game developer who created it.

I think one of the main reasons a large portion of the world’s population sees no harm in piracy is because it is copying, rather than taking something physical. Unfortunately there are small companies that are stuggling because people refuse to buy their games (weither it be because of piracy or simply because the game isn’t mainstream enough). However, as I’ve been saying all along, if you weren’t going to purchase the game anyway, then there is no harm… it’s just unfortunate that people will copy the games they were going to buy.

40

Well said, Solo… Well said :slight_smile: