Just a quick question that’s really been confusing me lately.
In Saga, you, as the Divine Visitor, destroy the heresy program as it is the last piece of the will of the ancients left in the world (as far as software goes?). So what is the program that you enter in Orta? If it’s the heresy program, then why is it gold instead of black (like it was in the saturn games).
If these questions are too lon to answer, can you point me in the right direction on the site? Thanks!
My guess is they just wanted to take advantage of the new effects available to them with Xbox hardware and altered their designs accordingly.
Huh? Heresy turns gold @ the end of Saga. The recorded message seen in Orta is after that.
The generally accepted notion is that the Heresy Dragon became the new Sestren after defeating and displacing Sestren Exsis.
I’ve recently arrived at my own notion that the gold represents the power and light from the concentration of psychic energy at Sestren’s core, which is why everything is gold where Edge is at the end of Saga. Heresy appears as black there yet, either because it has not completely merged into Sestren’s core… or simply in contrast since they are effectively inside itself at that point and surrounded by that same light which would be shining out from the outside.
However… there is still room for a possibility that the recording in Orta is from before the “other half” actually became a heretic…
Wait, heresy doesn’t become gold @ the end of saga? I seem to remember him shifting dragon shapes and stuff, from pup to various forms while speaking to you, it was gold then, no? Or have all the years worn my memories?
Also, when did that theory sprout up, that it might before it was a heretic? I thought most everyone agreed it makes perfect sense it’s after Saga… Link?
Oi! I thought the heresy program was destroyed at the end of Saga??
Actually, the “black” characteristic seen in the Heresy Dragon program at the end of Saga was a physical representation of the corruption suffered by the system. It was this corruption that resulted in the unstable nature of the world and the premature initiation of the Dragon program.
The later seen Gold version of the Heresy program is post-purging of the corruption. The color was simply meant to represent the purity of the Heresy program in its new state.
I’m just kidding. I have no idea. 
both black and gold sestrens were ostensibly destroyed in saga.
the gold sestren, who took the form of sestren exis, was destroyed by the black sestren, who took the form of the heresy dragon. the black sestren/heresy dragon was then destroyed by the divine visitor.
in orta, sestren exists, although dormant, as stated by the gold dragon.
in saga, only the black sestren/dragon was destroyed directly by the divine visitor, which may explain its current state in orta (where’s it was “mortal” but able to reproduce).
Where does PD mention that the Heresey dragon is “the black sestren”?
Unless it is confirmed by the game, that is just pure speculation (That it is itself a Sestren).
"Where does PD mention that the Heresey dragon is “the black sestren”?
It’s heavily implied after the sestren fight.
Edge: “That voice…the Dragon?”
and the black sestren spawns the heads of the light wing, solowing and baby forms which also implies it.
Also, the voice of the black sestren is the same voice of the gold sestren or is at least uncannily similar.
[quote=“Lundi”]"Where does PD mention that the Heresey dragon is “the black sestren”?
It’s heavily implied after the sestren fight.
Edge: “That voice…the Dragon?”
and the black sestren spawns the heads of the light wing, solowing and baby forms which also implies it.
Also, the voice of the black sestren is the same voice of the gold sestren or is at least uncannily similar.[/quote]
Yes, but where does the game actually imply that the Heresey Dragon is “Sestren” in that?
Just because it is spawning heads of Dragons, and has a similar voice… I do not see how that implies that the Heresey Dragon itself is “the black sestren”. For all we know this could just be part of the Heresey Dragon saying good-bye to edge and the actual dragon.
Also why would the Heresey Dragon bother taking control of Sestren if it knew it was going to be destroyed by the Absolute Guest litterally seconds later?
[quote=“Chizzles”]Yes, but where does the game actually imply that the Heresey Dragon is “Sestren” in that?
Just because it is spawning heads of Dragons, and has a similar voice… I do not see how that implies that the Heresey Dragon itself is “the black sestren”. For all we know this could just be part of the Heresey Dragon saying good-bye to edge and the actual dragon.
Also why would the Heresey Dragon bother taking control of Sestren if it knew it was going to be destroyed by the Absolute Guest litterally seconds later?[/quote]
Zadoc: “Sestren is the will of the ancients.”
The Dragon: “The will of the ancients… It is now with me… The Divine Visitor must destroy me. …That is why I have returned.”
The way I read it, the dragon had to be destroyed for the will of the ancients to be destroyed, whatever that may be.
Hmm, I’m not sure Chizzles is only questioning the general belief that the Heresy entity took over and became Sestren before the system was shut down… or if he picked up on the implication in Lundi’s post (which I know to be one of his opinions) that the Heresy/Black entity was always literally a “Sestren”. Or perhaps one facet of the same “Sestren” as the Exsis/Gold entity.
This thread may fully explain what he’s on about there, and incidentally it’s where the other idea I mentioned, about the Orta recording being from before the Heresy entity ‘split’ with Sestren first came up. Although Lundi himself has yet another take on that…
As much as I enjoyed reading it, I think this might be a case of reading too much into something where there really is not that much to read into, and possibly complicating things further than they need to be.
I always saw the Dragon’s visions as displaying what might happen.
The Dragon *knows *what is going to happen if the black dragon reaches the tower.
And the reason for Lagi not relaying a vision to Orta simply that the Heresey Dragon is no longer within him and he has reverted to a simple beast, albeit with a modified body due to the program.
Remember,
“It sounds Crazy, but the ancient texts mention beasts that cannot die, until they fulfill their purpose”?
I view the Heresy Dragon + Lagi as one of these beasts itself, he cannot die until he completes his mission. However after completing his mission in Saga, the program returns to Sestren and he regains his ability to die.
Also, in the first game it would appear that the vision actually comes from the rider rather than the dragon.
While some may view my take on the series as unimaginative, I am quite a believer of a rock being there because it is.
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Yes, the text formatting on this forum did fuck that up.
"
I always saw the Dragon’s visions as displaying what might happen. "
Why? Everything the dragon has relayed through visions has come to pass.
Because in each game, with the exception of Zwei and Orta, the Dragon’s vision have shown what the ultimate objective of the Dragon’s mission at the time is.
The first game, he has to stop the black dragon from reaching the tower. The vision displays a black dragon heading towards the tower.
In Saga, he is going to destroy Sestern Exis and the Tower of Uru, the vision shows Lagi heading towards the Tower of Uru.
The only vision that does not fit this is the vision at the end of Zwei, where it just shows random clips from the first game. However this could have been something as simple as the creator’s wishing to re-inforce the fact that the game was set before the original title.
And it would certainly explain why the vision happens at the end of the game, rather than the start.
As for Orta, how do we know Orta never had a vision? We never even saw her chains get removed, her recieve her gun, or her scarf pulled out of the turban she is wearing it as on her head.
Orta is missing large, large chunks of story and is full of plot holes, this is why I find it a hard game to draw inspiration from when talking about “theories” for the game.
I am still not convinced that the Heresey Dragon is “A Sestren”.
To me, Sestren is the entire system, and Sestren Exis, Heresey Dragon and all the other crap are the programs that reside/resided within it.
When we install a program for Windows inside Windows… it does not get referred to as “A Windows”.
Perhaps the Hersey Dragon was once an integral part of the Sestren system, then infected with a virus (Impurity Detected!) that caused it to go against the rest of Sestren.
The goal of this being the over-writing and destruction of Sestren Exis,
So if the Heresey Dragon does indeed over-write Sestren Exis, then everything the entire Sestren system stands for is in the hands of the Heresey Dragon, who for some reason cannot terminate himself and the system unless the Divine Visitor pushes “the button”.
“Because in each game, with the exception of Zwei and Orta, the Dragon’s vision have shown what the ultimate objective of the Dragon’s mission at the time is.”
The white rider in One relays the objective but the vision the Dragon relays is that the black dragon will reach and interface with the tower, which it did. The point is that the dragon can relay future events, which it does in Zwei, the first one, and in Saga. Orta is the only exception to this rule. because the vision includes objectives, I can see why you would construe the dragon as giving the objective to a rider. However, in Saga, after receiving the vision, Edge is still out for revenge, perusing his own objective. the same is true for Lundi, also out for revenge, but feels compelled by the dragon
"The only vision that does not fit this is the vision at the end of Zwei, where it just shows random clips from the first game. However this could have been something as simple as the creator’s wishing to re-inforce the fact that the game was set before the original title.
And it would certainly explain why the vision happens at the end of the game, rather than the start."
Outside of the game narrative itself, Zwei was already well advertised as a prequel. Moreover, the fact that you raise a laser breathing dragon itself implies that Zwei a prequel. The Dragon also relays visions of the first game and Saga at the end of zwei. After the destruction of the shelcoof, this would appear redundant if the vision’s purpose was to instruct the rider of future objectives. Rather, the dragon was leaving Lundi a vision of the future, the “secret of him and the world”.
“As for Orta, how do we know Orta never had a vision? We never even saw her chains get removed, her recieve her gun, or her scarf pulled out of the turban she is wearing it as on her head.”
All riders so far recieved a vision at some point. We were shown this.
These visions have significance to either past or future events. The fact that we were never shown one in Orta, I belive, implies something.
Turbans and whatnot can’t really compare.
“Orta is missing large, large chunks of story and is full of plot holes, this is why I find it a hard game to draw inspiration from when talking about “theories” for the game.”
Like what?
"I am still not convinced that the Heresey Dragon is “A Sestren”.
To me, Sestren is the entire system, and Sestren Exis, Heresey Dragon and all the other crap are the programs that reside/resided within it.
When we install a program for Windows inside Windows… it does not get referred to as “A Windows”."
I don’t recall referring sestren in the plural, aside from distinguishing between the black and gold sestren entities. I think it’s reasonable to assume that they are avatars of sorts of the entire system.
Moreover, there isn’t “any other crap” inside sestren of particular prominence to the story in the first three games.
“Perhaps the Hersey Dragon was once an integral part of the Sestren system, then infected with a virus (Impurity Detected!) that caused it to go against the rest of Sestren.”
Azel does mention that people in ancient times were against the towers. However, the fact that the black sestren used the divine visitor to destroy/deactivate the system Sestren only correlates to this and does not prove causation.
“So if the Heresey Dragon does indeed over-write Sestren Exis, then everything the entire Sestren system stands for is in the hands of the Heresey Dragon, who for some reason cannot terminate himself and the system unless the Divine Visitor pushes “the button”.”
My theory attempts to explain why the Dragon/Black Sestren had to prompt the divine visitor.
panzer-dragoon.com/jpn/galle … on1024.jpg
Moreover, this image implies the connection between the Dragon and the black sestren entity. I can see where Heretic is coming from with the “becoming the new sestren”, but that doesn’t take into account a vision seen in Saga, where the black sestren entity is already existing and it segways into scenes of the baby dragon in Zwei.
I think this scene shows the birth of the Dragon after the black sestren entity is seen being “defeated” or something by the gold sestren entity.
Well I think nearly everyone accepts that the Heresy entity came from Sestren in some form, as evidenced by the ‘Heresy Program’ vernacular and as Chizzles also explained it. While many only see the connection as them both being “programs”, I also see it as more fundamental than that.
However, to me it’s less important that the Heresy Dragon is like Sestren (Exsis), which always seemed clear enough… but more significant that Sestren Exsis is like the dragon. Because that’s what it really is, a dragon, or perhaps “dragon soul” to be specific.
I recall an idea that the gold dragon entity first seen in the memory orb at the end of Azel could be depicting the soul (program or whatever) of the Dark Dragon, rather than Sestren itself. Which might not be entirely out of the question either, but I think it is simply that they wanted to reinforce the connection between the two super entities.
IIRC the idea of the gold entity in Orta as being “the new Sestren” and indeed the “Heresy Program” has become largely accepted partly because it came straight from Abadd (forum member) at some time? But it seems to gel with both the fact of Sestren’s continued function in Orta, as well as the (presumably more direct) translation taken from the Azel prototypes, which does not directly indicate you will be destroying the dragon by pressing the button.
Rather than say they are Avatars, I would say they are different components of the Sestren system.
Look at your standard computer operating system, it is comprised of many layers that all act in harmony (most of the time… anyway).
The Towers for example, would be your Input/Output layer.
But why would Sestren Exsis suddenly decide that an integral part of the system is an impurity and cast it out into the real world if it had not undergone some kind of transformation?
“Impurity detected” implies that something has just suddenly been noticed within the system, if the Heresy Dragon’s goal all along was to counter-balance Sestren Exsis’ actions then surly Exsis would have noticed this right at the very beginning when it was first booted and cast out the Heresy Dragon right away?
“The Impurity Has Returned” “Goodbye, my other half, watch over our old friends for us”
^
It does not exactly sound like these two are old buddies, if it is indeed Sestren Exsis talking to the Heresy Dragon in Orta’s forbidden memories.
It also seems odd that the ancients who created the towers would create a system that can obliterate the entire world in one night, and be able to worry about the casuality of the human race at the same time. If the Towers are so powerful, why wouldn’t they just do what they were designed to do and destroy everything if things started going off-rails?
I’ll buy into your theory that the Heresy Dragon is some kind of technological fortune teller; but that does not necessarily mean his objectives werw always a paradox to Exsis’.
I’m not saying that Exsis and the Heresy Dragon don’t have the relationship you imply Lundi, (in terms of how they behave and their purpouse) I just find it hard to believe that the ancients would have deliberatly designed the system that way when they could have made it much simpler.
I like to think that the way Heresy Dragon became a heretic is via some kind of alteration, from rebels or even if it was self-altered;
Perhaps the explenation for it is actually in the name… Heresy Dragon. It could well have had a different role originaly inside sestren, then turned heretic of its’ own accord due to being displeased with Exsis and his goals (They do seem to be intelligent beings with thought).
Although either way I don’t see it as particularily important whether the Heresy Dragon was, all along, a paradox to Sestren Exsis or whether he was modified in some way.
All that matters is they both do whatever it is they do.
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Regarding Orta: Abadd, his motive is too convoluted and nonsensical to make him seem genuine in my eyes.
He magically foresees Orta’s destiny? Cannot revive his masters? Then somehow gets the idea that taking over Orta’s body will give him the ability to create a drone army will help him complete his mission?
How is taking over Orta’s body going to allow him to reproduce himself infinitely? What is he going to do? Have sex as much as he can every 9 months?
And more importantly:
If Azel can just magic Orta out of DNA from inside Sestren, so can Abadd.
Why can’t Abadd use the same method? He schemed the entire empire to get access to a Dragonmare that he then modified himself, helped them operate the cradle.
It doesn’t sound like he is not smart enough or not capable enough to create drones on his own using Sestren.
Orta also raises the rather perplexing issue of Sestren having Azels voice. (???)
