Game 'Kinetics' (more high-concept malarkey)

A question… how important do you think the kinetic feedback loop is to how much you will ultimately like any type of game?

I’ve been wondering about this lately, as it’s something I’ve always been fairly conscious about, yet it’s rarely echoed in the way most people express their own opinions about games. Another curiosity for me is that rating how a game “controls” used to be right up there with “how good are TEH GRAFIX”, or at least it seemed like it. And while the immediate answer may simply be that most games do indeed control well enough anymore, and so it’s only the ones that control very badly that warrant comment… I believe it’s still a little more complex.

In the ancient caveman days of videogaming, there used to be this notion of “playability”. And it was quite essential, as well as easy to grasp, at that time when a game’s worth could commonly be measured in how much FUN you get from 10-30 minutes of play and/or how many quarters it takes out of your pocket. And while this magic of colors dancing to your whim on a TV screen was always the primary seduction, that a game might be trying to succeed as eye candy alone was at once more obvious and criminal, and more alienated from the mainstream sensibility.

But now, in our brave new era when things like story and production and content are the unforgiving yardsticks by which a game’s nominal value is judged, do all the extra layers of paint then truly obscure the inner workings so much that they are less relevant? Or perhaps, is it only that with extra stimulus and more levels of engagement being fulfilled, the more primal levels of gratification are only being appreciated less consciously?

I’m as much a graphics whore as anyone, I really appreciate pretty games and indeed need to be visually pleased on some basic level to enjoy them. But I can recognize two criteria that seem to put an experience over the top for me, consistent in every game that I hold in the most rarefied air of gloriousness, and so are ultimately more important than any static visual prowess. One is the aural attachment, typically meaning music, though how the incidental sounds are composed qualifies as a kind of music as well. But the other criteria is less defined, and what I’m here terming the kinetic feedback, and the only way I can really communicate it as an encompassing concept is with a few examples:

As I’ve mentioned before, my taste for the FPS genre is particularly selective, and some part of that is because FPS controls are so homogeneous as a rule. The WAD setup for PC just works, with a very flat linear response being obviously preferable, and mouse-look responds based on the device itself; essentially the same as your desktop according to how you set the sensitivity. So there was basically no reason (or even option) to mess with the expected ‘feel’ much. But that’s arguably one of the main reasons the genre has had such a rocky road on consoles, because with any kind of control pad, the kinetic feedback actually does require a lot of tweaking for the controls to not feel like a barrier between the player and the game.

For myself Halo is a perfect example of that tweaking, and I’ve termed it as having “character”, but in general the game is paced and polished to work as a console experience. An even better example is Call of Duty 4, and it’s phenomenal popularity on consoles attests to that. The game has certain gimmicks and innovations which are talked about much more, but every once in a while the perfect controls are mentioned, it seems often almost as though “that goes without saying”. And that’s what really makes me wonder, should it go without saying? All else being equal would CoD4 have been nearly so popular on XBL without also bringing the new paradigm for how an FPS can control on console? It’s clearly not coincidental, but that factor doesn’t seem like it gets full acknowledgment either.

So that’s one kind of example which is easy to understand by the label “control”, but what I’m conceptually wrestling with here is the notion that control is a somewhat limiting designation, or really only one facet of what’s now a much more nuanced realm of concern. I’m going to draw a somewhat specious and arbitrary parallel here, for purely illustrative purposes: In the olden days of simple 2D sprite animation, the mandate for the artists was to make the most of a few frames to enhance the communication of kinetic intent, in the case of humanoid characters it’s basically body language. And if it looks cool it counts as sweet graphics, but if it also matches the timing and pace of the sprite movement especially well it even enhances the control. But the thing is it registers as mostly one of those factors or the other, very rarely was the quality of “animation” brought up, as such.

But now animation is mentioned all the time, because with 3D models the kinetic action cues which you respond to - which used to simply be movement - are (largely) inextricable from the discrete movements of the model itself. So in a sense animation has almost usurped the place control once had? What I’m really trying to get across is the idea that perhaps, in many types of games, animation may be the most common factor in detaching the player from the experience, much as bad controls used to be the primary culprit. And in defining that, maybe also suggest a clearer refinement of what the criteria of ‘good animation’ should really be, in videogame terms?

A couple final personal examples, relating directly to that aspect of kinetics… JetSetRadioFuture is my best example of the paradox (if hopefully not merely discrepancy) in this view, the dichotomy that proves the relationship, maybe. Aside from the very obvious eye candy and ear candy, and the engaging environments, what again seals the deal with that game for me is the kinetics, and in this case the kinetics are all about the animation. Indeed the control in that game is downright uninviting for many people, even myself for a while, yet the control has integrity. The game perhaps needs the player to buy into it’s overall kinetics as a requirement of full appreciation, which not every player will. But for myself JSRF’s kinetic feedback is much more ‘tactile’ than in most games, meaning the action cues are positive and detailed, and so are being processed unconsciously, which is a baseline I seem to require to enjoy a game.

I’ve recently tried out Shadow of the Colossus, and while I haven’t played too far yet (and it will grab me I know, but my PS3 doesn’t like my TV, something I need to figure out still) it has reminded me of what’s certainly the biggest reason ICO didn’t quite click with me as impressively as so with many others… the animation simply isn’t in that top echelon for kinetic feedback. Which is not to say that it isn’t good, but it doesn’t reinforce the illusion of mass and impact on the subliminal level as well as other games that do reach that highest threshold for myself. Which leads to what may be the issue of most import even, if more subtle:

Even aside from how important kinetics may be in general, I believe another wrinkle in the issue of how gamer priorities have changed, is that unlike the good old days when a game having bad controls could be relatively universally agreed upon; with overall kinetics it’s rather less ‘good’ vs ‘bad’ and more like ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. It’s more subtle and nuanced, an issue of taste intersecting hardly at all with objective truth.

OK, well… how insane am I then? Does this ‘hypothesis’ resonate with anyone else at all? :anjou_happy:

Hmm, I’d say first and foremost I play videogames (as opposed to other mediums who also offer content - ultimately what really interests me) for interactivity. The extent or the responsiveness of the interactivity is not really that important to me.

If “kineticness” were a problem for me, I would never have been able to enjoy the likes of ICO, Riven or Tomb Raider 1 even. None of those games are seen as hallmarks of responsiveness in terms of controls, and yet they have very powerful content.

A game always has to be enjoyable to control.

For example the sensation of flight created by Panzer Dragoon is controllable to the extent where you basically forget that you’re sitting twiddling d-pads and mashing buttons.

It’s all about covering up the fact that you are simply sitting pressing buttons, removing that barrier between the player and the game, and making it feel like the player is integrated into the action.

I did not have a problem with ICO’s controls, the speed and movement feel “just right” given the size of the avatar and the environments.

I’ve never been a fan of Tomb Raider at all, but not because of the controls.

Of course, responsive controls are most important for fast paced games.
Many driving games try to emulate real car handling, and just end up feeling like laggy pieces of shit as a result.

Gehn, thank you for the direct answer, though you only spell it out in the terms of control specifically. However both those responses seem to help make the case for this issue being every bit as subjective as say art or music. So… would you also say that animation is only important to you as essentially part of the content as well? And in thinking how to clarify this question, it reminded me of another example about JSRF.

Because I will admit that the original Jet Set Radio was at least as mesmerizing to simply watch, at least at the time, so passively the animation was just as brilliant. But actually trying to play it is a completely different story, and suddenly it feels like there’s a three foot wall between me and the game, a wall I can see through just fine, but a barrier that yet distorts the feedback. And while a lot of people did criticize Tomb Raider for it’s control, and it is very understandable how some might find it unresponsive, the animation yet serves to reinforce understanding of why it responds in just the way it does.

So would you also say that the finer points of animation don’t affect your immediate immersion, or perhaps mechanical suspension of disbelief very much?

And Chizzles, I totally agree about the Dragoons… and that’s easily the main thing lacking in the original PD, why it didn’t quite lock in as an outright classic for me at the time. While it clearly hints at the signature organic animation that defines the series, it just wasn’t quite there yet. The low framerate and inconsistent panoramic movements didn’t help either.

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]Gehn, thank you for the direct answer, though you only spell it out in the terms of control specifically. However both those responses seem to help make the case for this issue being every bit as subjective as say art or music. So… would you also say that animation is only important to you as essentially part of the content as well? And in thinking how to clarify this question, it reminded me of another example about JSRF.

Because I will admit that the original Jet Set Radio was at least as mesmerizing to simply watch, at least at the time, so passively the animation was just as brilliant. But actually trying to play it is a completely different story, and suddenly it feels like there’s a three foot wall between me and the game, a wall I can see through just fine, but a barrier that yet distorts the feedback. And while a lot of people did criticize Tomb Raider for it’s control, and it is very understandable how some might find it unresponsive, the animation yet serves to reinforce understanding of why it responds in just the way it does.

So would you also say that the finer points of animation don’t affect your immediate immersion, or perhaps mechanical suspension of disbelief very much? [/quote]

Well, actually, when I used the word “responsiveness” I was talking about both controls and animations, since they both directly affect it (altough I will agree that ,in videogames, on a general sense, responsiveness is a word often used to describe the controls - but I was using it in a broader sense).

What I mean, is that is that it isn’t the first thing I want answered when I’m questioning the validity of a videogame purchase, most of the time. If you look at the list of games I’m hoping to get once I buy a 360 (Too Human, Alan Wake, Fable 2…) you’ll see they are mainly content-driven experiences, where context is more important than in a game like Ninja Gaiden. Which doesn’t mean I’m not considering Ninja Gaiden 2 as a purchase, which I am. In fact Ninja Gaiden would be one of the very few examples of games were I like to experience some of that kineticness, and as such a game where I greatly value both controls and animation.

I guess I’m the kind of person that wouldn’t dismiss a game simply based on bad controls or animation, but could easily dismiss a game based on shallow content.

It’s funny you bring this matter up because, don’t know if you are aware of, Too Human is a game I’m extremely hyped about, as has gotten some flack because a lot of people feel the animation allied to the controls is subpar. The game isn’t out yet so there is no way to know for sure, but that doesn’t stop me for still wanting to play the game for the story, mythos and music (“aural attachment” is the perfect way to describe it btw, and it’s exactly the reason why I value it so much).

If you want content driven I don’t know how pleased you’ll be with too human since it’s meant to be a modernised diablo esque action rpg as far as I know… Which means near perfect controls (for the type of game it is) would certainly be a must, and the bound to be repetitive content and actions you do should at least look decent… That said, I don’t buy all the recent criticism either since it was presented in such childish ways so I’m still on wait and see mode.

I’m thoroughly informed as to TH’s nature as a game and I can assure you it’s heavily content driven. It’s a dungeon-crawler, yes , but it’s story and mythos are very fleshed out. As for perfect controls, it’s something that remains to be seen, but the point is to make them as simple as using a mouse in a game like Diablo. The animation is not great (that much can be understood in the videos) but then again I don’t know of any other dungeon crawler with great animations. Considering the context of the action, expecting a level of animation similar to the likes of Ninja Gaiden for example is ludicrous. I do think it looks decent, at least. Anyway, TH is a very special case in regards to the reasons why it’s criticized( an outspoken game director and a badly timed E3 showing).

The game is trying to achieve things no other game tried before, and as such, is getting undeserved comparisons. You can’t expect the sort of detailed animation you see in most hack’n’slashers when you are trying to implement a control scheme that basically consists of pointing in the direction of your adversaries irrespective of their position in relation to you.

What little animation is actually there however should be good… The fact they can’t incorporate fancy moves and enemy interaction as in beat em ups and action games you mention doesn’t mean what they CAN implement should be of low quality. That was my point. As for trying to do things no other game has tried, let’s actually wait and see if they have tried to do it instead of just hype their attempts but deliver a sub par Diablo clone for consoles. Which isn’t demeaning to consoles as they also have good diablo clones like the Dark Alliance series.

Well what that have implemented is good quality.Not bad, not great, good. I mean, it was mo-capped, there isn’t much about it that can be seen as unrealistic or something.

As for hype, you’ve seem to have the same misconceptions about the game as everyone else if you think this is supposed to be a Diablo clone period. I mean, is every dungeon crawler with a skill tree a Diablo clone? The goal is to blend twitch gameplay with roleplaying statistics and items. Dyack gives the perfect example when he talks about how Eternal Darkness was perceived back in the day - as a Resident Evil clone. It turns out, that it was something very different (obviously a horror game too).

I was merely saying that the biggest differentiation it has from being a Diablo clone (good or bad remains to be seen) was how much emphasis they put on delivering a good story at the same time like you have explained perfectly when describing its ambitions. But until we actually see them deliver such, we can’t be sure it’s not just hype. If it is, then it will be closer to a Diablo clone than they want to and lacks that one big differentiation.

I don’t use the term Diablo clone to lessen the game’s quality, Diablo’s simply the archetype dungeon cralwer and any game that is a dungeon clawler is bound to be compared to it if it also shares similar gameplay qualities (ie, real time, twitch, clickety click (or equivalent for consoles), emphasis on tons of enemies and phat loot, etc).

It’s the rest elements that will make or break the game, not the fact it’s inspired or at least owes a lot to the gameplay style made popular by Diablo.

[quote=“Al3xand3r”]I was merely saying that the biggest differentiation it has from being a Diablo clone (good or bad remains to be seen) was how much emphasis they put on delivering a good story at the same time like you have explained perfectly when describing its ambitions. But until we actually see them deliver such, we can’t be sure it’s not just hype. If it is, then it will be closer to a Diablo clone than they want to and lacks that one big differentiation.

I don’t use the term Diablo clone to lessen the game’s quality, Diablo’s simply the archetype dungeon cralwer and any game that is a dungeon clawler is bound to be compared to it if it also shares similar gameplay qualities (ie, real time, twitch, clickety click (or equivalent for consoles), emphasis on tons of enemies and phat loot, etc).

It’s the rest elements that will make or break the game, not the fact it’s inspired or at least owes a lot to the gameplay style made popular by Diablo.[/quote]

Exactly.My point was that it isn’t a Diablo clone anymore than it is a Devil May Cry clone. It’s a mix of elements, what stands(good or bad) out depends on the player.

As for the comment I’ve bold-ed : well that applies to every game out there. I’m personally very interested in TH’s concept, not that I’m perfectly sure it will be great (although I have very good reasons to think so, judging by Blood Omen and Eternal Darkness, even though I’ve only played a little bit of each) but because it’s something quite fresh on all fronts.I have my three big “favourite mythos” in PD, Myst and LoK. ICO+SoTC would be number the other one. And I think TH is going to join the pack.

Your post had “responsiveness in terms of controls” at the end so that’s the sense I was left with, so the clarification helps. “Responsiveness” is perhaps a better term in general, but as you say it usually ends up as an implicit synonym for “control” anyway. I’m glad you mentioned Ninja Gaiden, as it’s a game that truly lives by it’s responsiveness… if that aspect had been anything less than brilliant, what remains would be mostly forgettable. So it’s good to know that you can appreciate a game primarily on that basis, but how about this: even if you outright dislike the kinetic response of a game, will that still not (typically) be enough to break an otherwise fulfilling experience, for you?

I have one answer each way so far (as I interpret Chizzles’ response) but now I’m even wondering what degree of generation gap could be in play, since my formative gaming experience was from that time when content was more of a bonus, rather than the staple it is now. I’ve also caught myself wondering if I’m just losing it as a gamer, but then examples like Ninja Gaiden come along - a game that’s often called too hard-core - which I’ve only started on hard difficulty and try for “Master Ninja” rank (though I’ve only made that on about half so far). And that’s very consistent, I can be really good at some games, and also really suck at others, based on whether the game completes the feedback loop or not. But it’s almost a chicken or the egg deal, I can’t be 100% sure I’m good at the game because I love it… or that I hate a game because I suck at it? lol

At any rate I’ve known this about myself for a while, that immersion is in part mechanical; along the lines of what Chizzles said, if the kinetics are too alien to my own wiring, and the game keeps pulling conscious attention back to what my fingers need to do to the buttons, past a certain point there’s no redeeming the experience no matter how compelling the rest of it is. Of course that point may indeed vary according to the rest as well. Many people may be a lot more adaptable than I am though.

I’m also really looking forward to Too Human, and I think the controls are a great idea, exactly how it works out in practice only time will tell. But… that’s another side to the issue of adaptability: I think I’m more inclined to adapt to something that’s completely unfamiliar than something that’s standard yet inferior. Which might be the reverse of most people, and that may be part of why TH’s controls are getting a lot of negativity. It kind of reminds me of Grabbed by the Ghoulies, which also had unusual controls that people loved to hate, but I kinda liked it.

When I used “responsiveness in terms of controls” it was to separate it from “responsiveness in terms of animation”. An aspect that, the 3 examples I gave, do not share, unlike unresponsiveness in terms of controls :anjou_happy:

Anyway, to answer your question, I’d say that I’m pretty lenient when it comes to kinetic response (still, controls > animation) and like in most other things pertaining to gaming I don’t deal with black or whites. Part of it is because (since I tend to buy very few games) I often play with a predisposition to accept a game for what good elements it does offer and try not to focus too much on the negatives (clich?s being the exception here). I’m the kind of gamer that tends to be forgiving towards the game. Some of it might have to do with my interest for how games are designed/developed.

As an example, Gunvalkyrie is the kind of game that probably (initially) frustrates 99.99% of it’s players right from the get go. After finishing the game 2 times in a row I could say the game is pretty good in terms of how the character reacts to your input (and the animation is pretty good) but it still very easy to say the controls suck. (to this day it’s only game that really got me angry)

GV was both the game that I loved because I was (became) good at it, and the game I sucked at because I hated it (this last part is a recursive function and that’s why it makes sense :P).

I wouldn’t say the generation gap has any real impact (at least not as far as I’m concerned). If the content was anything but shitty you might have came up with a good theory though :stuck_out_tongue: I mean, regardless of the threshold your are considering in this case, controls are still king when compared to content in terms of quality, generally speaking. I started out with 16bit gaming, but the bulk of my gaming years were the 32 bit era where game content still retained much of the previous generation’s shallowness (well I don’t know if that’s fair…games haven’t evolved* that *much in that regard…) and where controls were lousier than ever due to required adaptation to the new technology (3D).

Let me make it clear that unless a game’s content is worth it, I’m pretty much like you. I’m no masochist, there has to be something that grabs me.

Same with me. Tweaking good formulas is seldom-ly a good idea. Doing something completely different, though, (as the Wii shows) might at least be a chance to prove that there are other valid paradigms.

I’ll have to admit that not all of this is subconscious on my part. I’m a person that really believes videogaming is an art form. I think there’s validity beyond thrill rides. I hate to sound pretentious or pseudo-intellectual but the big draw for me has always been being able to visit fictional worlds. Movies and books impose a barrier in terms of interactiveness. But games don’t. That’s why I can get so much out of “non-gamy” experience like Riven.

I’d consider Riven to hold more in common with installation art than a game.
It should be referred to as “Interactive software”

Since game implies that it is actually that, a game.

But it could be considered that the feedback kinetics in Riven are just fine, since you are essentially controlling the mouse, and the mouse moves exactly how you’d expect it to with every twitch of your hand ;p


Gehpnaet, you use “Shallow” a lot, but what constitutes as being shallow in your mind?

Other than the fact the term is almost entirely subjective, a game could have extremely deep gameplay which will never tire in its own, but have a “shallow” story.

An example would be Virtua Fighter 5, the game’s plot is for the most part, an excuse for the characters to beat the shit out of eachother; however the gameplay itself takes a lot of time to perfect, and people are always finding new techniques to play the game with.

[quote=“Chizzles”]I’d consider Riven to hold more in common with installation art than a game.
It should be referred to as “Interactive software”

Since game implies that it is actually that, a game.

But it could be considered that the feedback kinetics in Riven are just fine, since you are essentially controlling the mouse, and the mouse moves exactly how you’d expect it to with every twitch of your hand ;p[/quote]

But, on default, it takes a second to react to your clicks in-between frames :stuck_out_tongue: And the mouse doesn’t control your head like in subsequent Myst games :stuck_out_tongue:

Well I don’t know what constitutes a video game per se, but a puzzle game is bound to rely heavily on the physical passiveness of the player (and on a very active intellectual). Also if you take into consideration the amount of game design considerations involved in such a game you’ll find they are not as few as one would assume. Riven was limited in terms of technology. They actually made a completely explorable 3D world, but the hardware wasn’t capable enough to render movement within it. So they took select pictures.

[quote=“Chizzles”]Gehpnaet, you use “Shallow” a lot, but what constitutes as being shallow in your mind?

Other than the fact the term is almost entirely subjective, a game could have extremely deep gameplay which will never tire in its own, but have a “shallow” story.

An example would be Virtua Fighter 5, the game’s plot is for the most part, an excuse for the characters to beat the shit out of eachother; however the gameplay itself takes a lot of time to perfect, and people are always finding new techniques to play the game with.[/quote]

I used shallow only twice actually :slight_smile:
But on both occasions it pertained only to the content part of things. So I was mainly talking about story, setting, characters etc. Most games out there are fairly shallow in that regard, in the past even more so.

I think the function of control can be expressed as the demands of the game mechanics vs the degree of hindrance to meeting those demands. If a game doesn’t demand timing or on the run precision, then the actual priorities for kinetics may end up very different, and the quality (or in a sense even quantity) of feedback information can become more important than the expedience of response, if that makes any sense?

I will again use Tomb Raider as an example: I can’t imagine anyone, even among it’s most ardent fans, would ever argue that the combat was great… or even much fun in general. But that’s not what the controls were focused on, the mandate of the game mechanics are to be something like a real-time tactical terrain negotiation simulator. And while the mechanics do require timing, you usually have the luxury of taking your time in the overall negotiation. So the game was literally about dead center between a pure action game and something more like Myst/Riven in that particular respect.

I think it was playing the original TR that I first started thinking about the “tactile” effect, or personally coined the recognition of it as a discrete virtue. It was clear to me the way the engine was designed helped, since at any given time there’s only two 3D angles (and then only one edge) to process for collision purposes, but I have yet to see any other game that pulls off that degree of visual precision in interaction with the environment (not counting those occasional set-piece props, heh). Mario 64 probably came closest from that same time period, but indeed with the priorities of a pure action game, and so both games arrive at their illusion from significantly different design priorities.

Gunvalkyre… shudder yeah that’s another very personal example for me as well. And just like Jet Set Radio I wanted to love it real bad… but that’s an example of a very holistic problem, for me. The game is purely about the mechanics, but even more than that, it’s about the control mechanics. Essentially the character of the experience is all contained within… well your character; or the subject. Or from the flip side, the objective of the game is actually less about the objects of the game. It’s a shooting gallery in the purest sense, because (as I found it) there’s hardly any innate resistance in the structure of the… resistance. So the only inherent reward is in how you play, right? And since I could not get to that point where I was playing like I know I should be able to, there was effectively no reward to be found in the game.

Two main factors rose to the top of my shit list of issues. Right from the beginning, as is my nature, I started out trying to ‘get’ the game, which was obviously about the control. But in that very first stage, I keep running into the invisible ceiling which irrecoverably breaks the timing of the boost cycle. Which would be more than annoying enough anyway, but then that ceiling is also placed at arbitrarily inconsistent levels throughout the stage and - as far as I’m concerned - always deliberately set just right to smack me down right before I expect it to. So that immediately sets the precedent for an extreme dislike and general lack of confidence.

OK, I mostly made peace with that… I kept getting a little better at it… I kept telling myself this is fun despite not being able to change anything about the controls that I think are stupid in the first place… until that stage that’s almost entirely a drop down miles of vertical shafts: which is one of the all time classic examples of a game being determined to show the player it’s ass, over and over again, and for no fathomable reason. After about 20 minutes of- boost lateral - take one full second to reorient aim downwards - shoot target - boost lateral (thus losing all vertical angle on aim) - take one full second to reorient aim downwards - shoot target - boost lateral (thus losing all vertical angle on aim) - etc… etc… etc… -I was certain I had not felt my good faith as a gamer being so sorely abused since a few obscure amateurish horrors from maybe the very early eighties.

But that’s just me, obviously. shrug

Gehn, I have an odd recommendation for you, speaking of obscure games… it’s one of the main whipping posts from the early XBOX days, and it’s hard to entirely defend it since the game is indeed an object lesson in shortcomings. I initially tried it out with the attitude of “OK, let’s find out just how bad this is”, but having played it I can say it would have been a personal tragedy if I’d missed out.

Azurik… alright yeah, the story is the very definition of generic, but fortunately it’s not pretentious and rarely shows it’s face anyway; the character looks like he belongs in some Off-Broadway avant-garde musical rather than a videogame; the level of production barely treads the line between sub-par and outright amateurish: but there’s a lot of subtle genius to be seen if you can meet the game where it lives. The most condemning thing that can fairly be said, is that it definitely overreaches what it delivers. And since the genre it attempts to represent is defined by the likes of Zelda or Soul Reaver or even ICO, and so synonymous with A-list (mostly Japanese) production extravaganzas… it was all but doomed from the get go.

Still, it suggests possibilities of atmosphere and immersiveness I have yet to see fully consummated since. And there’s this one massive spacial awareness puzzle that was for me hands down the most engaging, imaginative and rewarding example of the beast in any action game. Made all the more immersive because you get to see and wonder about your vague awareness of the thing in the background for a long time before you reach it. So basically it’s the type of game that indeed mostly only succeeds by it’s content, yet even there only in the realm of it’s abstract content. Plus the style of the environment in the Air Realm (yes, it’s that derivative) is very Panzer Dragoonish to me. In one sense I can’t recommend it enough, as one of those owe it to yourself to know kind of things, although truth be told after playing through nonstop I quit in the final area… I might still finish it someday. lol

Azurik… I remember that game. As you say Heretic, there was potential in the game, but it’s hard to recommend it. I didn’t play far into the game, but the game world kept me playing part way through the game at least.

As for game controls, they are vitally important to the experience for me. This is perhaps the single most important reason for my perference of 2D Sonic over the Sonic Adventure series (and especially Sonic Heroes)… the responsiveness, the feel of how you control the character, and overall the flow of the game.

The first game that got me into gaming was Pac Mania. Then it was Tetris (well, Twintris which is a two player varient of Tetris). Both of these games have response controls, but also offer immediate feedback that can makes you forget you have a controller in your hand.

That’s not to say that I won’t play a game, or will dislike a game that does not offer immediate feedback. For example, I’m very fond of Camelot’s Shining Force series. But if you compare the controls of Shining Force III versus, say, Fire Emblem Path of Radiance, you have much more control in the movement of the characters, which is perhaps why my preference is the former over the latter (although they are both undoubtly great games), even though much of both games are non-interactive. For those who haven’t played both, in Fire Emblem you control a cursor and select where you want your character to move; Shining Force… especially SFIII… allows you to move and position the character itself.

Panzer Dragoon Saga is an excellent example of an RPG that feels like a shooter because of it’s controls. You can by-pass menus through many battles, and if the bars at the bottom of the screen were removed, I’m certain enough that someone who was just watching a typical battle would mistake the game for a shooter. Compare this system to a traditional RPG battle system where characters wobble on the spot between turns; it’s light years ahead of so many other RPG battle systems in terms of immersion and responsiveness, even modern RPGs like World of Warcraft.

I think it’s more the flight appearance than the controls, you still have to select an attack and a target. For many rpgs you could just hammer the selection button to keep doing the regular attack on any of the enemies if they’re weak and there’s no chance you’ll lose so it’s more or less the same with PDS I think. Let’s not dismiss grand battle schemes like Grandia’s or the “Tales of” series’ (which are actually real time) as far inferior just like that.

I can enjoy games which offer immediate controls as in action titles or games where you control the character in indirect means (for example cursor movement in a CPRG or adventure game or Diablo clone or Wii’s Lost Winds which does both) or games where actions are direct but there are delays for any reason (for example in the first TR you could run, jump, and Lara would take another step before jumping depending on your timing)… It really just depends on how well the game is made for the whole to be more than the sum of its parts and for each part to fit together with the rest. There’s no set formula to follow for all genres or all games of a specific genre in my opinion.

Video games have definitely come a long way since Pong. I think that introducing kinetics into gaming does make for a more engaging experience. This can be handled well or not so well, however. Two of the PS3 games I own require kinetic response to complete character actions - Heavenly Sword and Folklore. Out of the two, I think that Folklore executes the concept the most effectively.

Heavenly Sword, while a gorgeous game, feels almost like you’re playing a movie at times. It reminds me of games like Dragon Lair, when you only press buttons at key moments. Don’t get me wrong, Heavenly Sword does have scenes where you have free control of Nariko and her range of attacks. It’s when you need to scale a wall, or finish off a boss that the timing comes into play. You are prompted with on screen cues that must be acted upon immediately to continue the flow of movement, otherwise, you fall and must try again. I like the idea that you have to be involved in this, but at the same time, I almost don’t like that loss of control traded in for a movie like sequence.

With Folklore, the kinetics come into play while capturing the souls (Ids) of your defeated enemies. Some enemies require you to bang their souls back and forth on the ground to literally beat them out of them. Others require you to keep their souls vertically balanced while fighting the pull of gravity, while still others must be shaken out of them. Ultimately, the final move is to flick the controller up toward you quickly to “yank” the Ids from the Folks. My boyfriend has a good laugh at me moving around in my seat trying to defeat these Folks. It’s engaging, though. And I enjoy it.

When the kinetics system becomes the basis for character movement, however, such as in Lair, I generally struggle with this. Often, the controls are not refined to respond as quickly, and it becomes difficult to control your character. The timing is off, so you never get the response you require in time to use it. Conversely, while you’re flailing around trying to steer the dragon where you want to go, you accidentally direct him elsewhere. Very frustrating for me.

Ultimately, I like the idea of kinetic gaming, but only if it’s executed well. If the timing is off, I will likely lose interest and cease to try. Gaming should be fun, not annoying.

Also, the kind of TV you use effects the response.

Some TVs, generally HDTVs and sometimes Standard Def flat panels, create a lag time of a fraction of a second.

While this might not sound like much, it actually makes a very big difference to the player interaction with the game, as you are seeing and reacting out of sync with the game.

I can get respectable times on most racing games on my old TV, however on my new one, I bounce off of walls like I have never played them before due to the lag created by the TV.

Although RPGs are generally menu based, I have never had my consciousness drawn too much to what I am doing with my hands while navigating the menu systems in RPGs because the design of the menus themselves has been good.

Grandia III’s battle system is fantastic, and timing combos right feels natural and entertaining because the interface is so fluid.

If there was an RPG, where the menus were overly complex to navigate, and there was a lag time between your input and the cursor moving - it would quickly become irksome, it is in this we learn that there is definite line between real time and intermediate controls, as the controls of the menus themselves are happening in real time.