Can someone help explain this part of the PD story? (+1q)

Panzer Dragoon
1

I don’t understand the terms used for the heresy dragon, or sestren AI. Now, Lagi was a mutant coolia, yes? And the Dark/Guardian dragons were bio-weapons that were created? Like the dragonmares, or sorts? What is the whole thing with Sestren controlling the monsters? And the location of Sestren…where is it exactly, and do we return there technically in the 6th level of Orta? Please explain these things for me, and talk down as if I was a noob child. I won’t mind. I’m just trying to fully understand the more…unworldly aspects of the series.

And the unrelated extra question, is, is Mel-Kava a tower? Shelcoof was a skyship but doubled as a tower because it mass-produced bio-monsters, yes? I only ask this because the two ships are remarkably similar in design. But Mel-kava’s purpose was to guard the pds tower with a smoke screen. Right?

Oi. lol

2

Lagi was a mutant coolia, yes. It mutated because the heresy dragon (think of it as anti-Sestren) downloaded itself into it. Don’t ask how. So, Lagi as we know him is a 2 in 1 creature, a coolia and the heresy dragon together. During Orta however, it is only the mutated coolia half as the heresy dragon has remained within Sestren space after the end of Saga while the other half chose to return to the natural world.

Think of Sestren space as an advanced form of the internet. It connects all the towers together. Sestren is also the name of the creature we fight at the end of PDS, reffered to as Sestren AI. This AI controls the towers via the Sestren space network. Or something along those lines. And yes we return there during Orta.

You are right about the Dark/Guardian dragons. Mel-Kava is not a tower as far as we know. Can’t remember the details about the fog, sorry. I’m sure you’ll get most of these answers if you just replay the pre-Orta games.

3

Alternatively, here’s my explanation. I wrote it up while Al3x was posting his, but I might as well post it anyway… using both explanations might help you understand it better too:

Lagi was born as a mutant coolia. The heresy “program”, which is black dragon spirit that we see at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga, is the entity that entered Lagi’s body and caused the mutant coolia to evolve into a dragon. We commonly call this dragon the Heresy Dragon, as it is refered to as that in one the books that Edge finds in the game.

How the Heresy Program entered the coolia and became the dragon is explained in the memory orbs that can be seen at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga, while fighting Sestren. If you watch them one after another, they show the gold dragon spirit (probably Sestren), fighting the black dragon spirit (what will become part of Lagi), and forcing him to leave Sestren and enter the outside world. When this happened, the heresy program/black dragon spirit entered the coolia Lagi’s body and made him become a dragon.

So, basically, there are two parts to the dragon. The “program” and the coolia. In PDO, it is just the coolia, as the program leaves the dragon’s body at the end of PDS. They are the same, yet different parts of one whole that makes up Lagi the Heresy Dragon.

Sestren, itself, is not a physical place, but a series of astral passages beyond the physical world. Alternatively, Sestren is referred to as “the circuits of Sestren”, which implies that Sestren is a data network hosted by the Towers. So, as far as I know, Sestren isn’t physically anywhere, rather those who enter it are transformed into data and enter a virtual reality. A bit like the Matrix I suppose, except I have no idea where the bodies of those who enter it would actually be stored.

And yes, the gateway at the end of Episode 6 of Panzer Dragoon Orta leads to Sestren.

Sestren controls the Towers, which control the environment. The Towers control the pure type monsters. The dragons are the guardians of the Towers. The mutated monsters were (probably) originally pure types that have mutated over the 10,000 years since the Ancient Age. Originally, the Ancients created both the pure type monsters and the dragons. The Towers breed new pure types. One dragon is posted at each Tower, with the exception of the Tower of Uru (unless Atolm is meant to be that Tower’s guardian).

It’s also possible that Mel Kava is a replacement for a dragon guardian for that tower, but that theory is never confirmed anywhere. Also, Mel Kava is never called a Tower anywhere, although it never is not called a Tower. It’s purpose was indeed to create the fog that guarded the Tower of Uru from intruders, so if it was supposed to be a Tower, it would have to be a Tower designed to protect a greater Tower. In my opinion, if Mel Kava was meant to be a Tower it would have had a guardian dragon of it’s own.

I hope that all makes sense.

4

The simplest explanation is that there is no absolute explanation for any of that. A lot of it is up for interpretation and oh boy has it been interpreted…

I would say there’s no reason to believe Mel-Kava can be considered a Tower in it’s own right since it is clearly a part of the Uru Tower’s defense system. In fact the Flying Tower Shelcoof even seems to have one other large support craft in it’s posse, and a Tower is clearly defined by it’s function not it’s form.

In general all of the dragons are bio-weapons created in the ancient age, including the Heresy Dragon. It is unclear whether Lagi’s unconventional birth and autonomous development were planned by ‘someone’ or instead an improvisation born of necessity, but it is fairly clear that the Heresy Dragon was part of a plan set in motion at the end of the ancient age. Either the dragon itself was a part of the Tower plan from the beginning and went rogue because of some other influences, or the dragon was itself a viral sabotage of Sestren and the Towers.

As near as I can tell most people regard the location of Sestren, or Sestren Space as more or less the internal virtual realm of the bio-mechanical circuits of the Tower network. I personally think of it as a sort of “meta-space” that the psychic energy of the collected organisms and mechanisms of Sestren impose a practical structure and continuity on.

Strictly speaking it’s unknown if it’s a realm of pure consciousness/data or alternate material, or even if it’s both in various cases. Orta and the dragon certainly return to “Sestren” in a general respect, I don’t think it can be known for certain if that space is exactly the same “place” as where we defeated Sestren Exis but it’s a part of the same continuum.

I wont get into my arguments for which monsters are controlled by Sestren, but it can be assumed that the majority of pure-type monsters existing in the world are (or were) under the control of the Towers and therefore Sestren. More to the point, most of the pure-types (and perhaps most of the mutated-types as well) exist because of Sestren and the Towers, they were all a part of the same system and plan.

Edit: To state the obvious I was writing this before I saw the other 2 responses but I’m not answering as quite the same things so… :anjou_sigh:

5

Now, Lagi was a mutant coolia, yes? Yes.
And the Dark/Guardian dragons were bio-weapons that were created? Just like every dragon except for Lagi who evolved into dragon via the Heresy Program.The Dragonmares are the first (to the best of our knowledge) created by anyone after the end of the Ancient Age.

What is the whole thing with Sestren controlling the monsters?Sestren controls every bio-mosnter with the exception of…you’ve guessed it the Heresy Dragon.Of course some monsters evolved during the years (mutated types) and it isn’t entirely clear if Sestren controls them or not but I think they can be perceived as wild bio-monster who weren’t within ruins (Sestren’s grasp?) during the ancient cataclysm and evolved as animals would over the years while the Towers were sleeping…Just hypothetical of course but I personally liek the sound of it.

And the location of Sestren…where is it exactly, and do we return there technically in the 6th level of Orta? Where is the www located?Sestren is somewhat of a different dimension where all of the world’s data is stored in a way.To enter Sestren you need a gate.Azel was the key to open the gate in PDS.In PDO Orta also managed to enter since Azel made her recognizable before Sestren.(she’s attacked in Sestren because of Abadd).

Is Mel-Kava a tower? Shelcoof was a skyship but doubled as a tower because it mass-produced bio-monsters, yes? I only ask this because the two ships are remarkably similar in design. But Mel-kava’s purpose was to guard the pds tower with a smoke screen. Right? The way I see it Mel-Kava is not a Tower since it’s mission is to protect a Tower.Besides it’s not as heavily guarded as other Towers nor is it as big.

6

I’d imagine the Sestren data network is simply a (physical) data network connecting the Towers. In a sense what we see inside the data network is a virtual world but I don’t think it’s supposed to be a different dimension. In other words, when Orta or Edge entered Sestren they were still on the same world but in the form of data in a network underneath the Towers. If I remember correctly in PD Orta the system literally said it was “forwarding” Orta and Lagi to a specific location, implying that it’s similar to how a router would forward packets to their location. The Sestren AI in Saga would probably be more like a system administrator. Without it, the network is still operational (the operating system, antivirus, firewall and other automated tasks are still running) but nobody is controlling it.

7

What I meant by “dimension” was something that would be otherwise unreachable within the real world.You can’t pinpoint Sestren cause the only way to enter it is using the portals.

8

Wow, Thankyou to everyone who responded. I understood perfectly what ya’ll were saying. But I thought of just two more other things that I still haven’t been able to understand. Then I’m good, *promise.

  • lol

1: Didn’t Edge + the dragon destroy Sestren? Because Sestren Space still exists in Orta. And actually, Edge, like Keil and Lundi, both go through this “teleportation” (are put in giant bubbly glowing circles) thing at the end. Lagi managed to teleport Keil and Lundi to safety and the end of their respective games…isn’t it strange that he couldn’t do it for Edge?

2: In my first question, i refer to our flying pal as ‘the dragon’. Is this still Lagi? I mean, is it the same dragon throughout the whole series? The reason I ask this is because I’ve always thought it was the same dragon. The whole Heresy leaving, now you’re mortal deal makes sense, but yet, this confuses me:
Now, the storyline, is Lagi, the mutant coolia, under the influence of Heresy meets Lundi, and Lundi takes care of him. Sestren activates Shelcoof to eliminate Lagi, and attempts to do so by obliterating their small village. Lagi chases after the Shelcoof and evolves into Solo Wing. This is the official evolution due to the flashbacks of Lundi riding Solo Wing during the Guardian Dragon fight given by Sestren. Anyway, Lagi does his dirtywork, cripples the Shelcoof, and seperates from Lundi to enter a long sleep* (*that, I assume). Lagi reawakens for PD with finding(choosing?) the white rider,and eventually the 2nd rider, Keil. Once more, Lagi goes into action and takes out a water tower as well as the Dark Dragon. My question, is, if Heresy still resides in Lagi, and this is in fact who we’re riding on in Saga, why is he not in Solo Wing form from the start?

9

The dragon destroyed Sestren the being. The Sestren network, however, still exists.

That all depends on whether Edge is meant to still be alive at the end of the game. IMO, he died at the start of the game and the Divine Visitor was simply keeping him alive by residing inside of him.

[quote=“The 9th Emporer”]2: In my first question, i refer to our flying pal as ‘the dragon’. Is this still Lagi? I mean, is it the same dragon throughout the whole series? The reason I ask this is because I’ve always thought it was the same dragon. The whole Heresy leaving, now you’re mortal deal makes sense, but yet, this confuses me:
Now, the storyline, is Lagi, the mutant coolia, under the influence of Heresy meets Lundi, and Lundi takes care of him. Sestren activates Shelcoof to eliminate Lagi, and attempts to do so by obliterating their small village. Lagi chases after the Shelcoof and evolves into Solo Wing. This is the official evolution due to the flashbacks of Lundi riding Solo Wing during the Guardian Dragon fight given by Sestren. Anyway, Lagi does his dirtywork, cripples the Shelcoof, and seperates from Lundi to enter a long sleep* (*that, I assume). Lagi reawakens for PD with finding(choosing?) the white rider,and eventually the 2nd rider, Keil. Once more, Lagi goes into action and takes out a water tower as well as the Dark Dragon. My question, is, if Heresy still resides in Lagi, and this is in fact who we’re riding on in Saga, why is he not in Solo Wing form from the start?[/quote]

This is actually quite a timeless debate. There are some who believe that the dragon is a different physical creature in PDS (see Lance’s ‘Different Dragons Theory’), and there are those of us who think it is the same physical dragon in all four games. Personally, I think Lagi exhausted all of his power at the end of Panzer Dragoon 1 when he destroyed the Tower, and had to revert to a lesser form. The same would apply between Saga and Orta, if that were the case.

10

The Different Dragons theory from Lance makes a lot of sense actually. Basically the dragon we see in PD 1 and PD Saga can’t be Lagi since the Lagi we know from PD Zwei is reborn in PD Saga as a Coolia from the crest in Shelcoof. It shows that Lagi never left that location. The dragon in PD Saga is most likely the same as in PD 1 (the crest at the beginning shows that it hibernated there).

11

Then again Lundi basically tells us that it IS the same dragon, the Dragon in Panzer Dragoon shows us it’s past (and future?), and PD’s dragon is also in the identical form as the one that may have lain lifeless in shelcoof while it was “resting”. It’s not exclusively the sensible explanation.

12

No, but Lundi probably didn’t know about the existence of the Heresy program. Here are some quotes of his diary:

“The dragon you ride has inherited the soul of my old friend. Your dragon is the only dragon in this world which exists to ‘kill the Towers’.”

“I have no idea why my friend had such a humble beginning.”

“Exhausting all his power, he discarded his body, and entered a deep sleep. I assume he has now reemerged with a new body, and chosen you as his rider.”

I think this shows that Lundi didn’t know the details about the Heresy program. It was the Heresy program that exists to kill the Towers, not the dragon (Coolia). The soul he speaks is far more likely to be the Heresy program instead of Lagi’s real soul. The Heresy program did retain the memory of past events even if it inhabited a different body. So my question is: if the dragon from PD was the same as in Zwei, then why wasn’t the crest empty in PD Saga?

13

Even should we take the Dragon Crest sequence literally, taking Lagi’s “sleep” to mean that he’s literally trapped in it until that moment is just as much a leap of belief as taking Lundi’s words literally.

You’ve made it clear that you regard Sestren as essentially just a data network, in those terms then how is a new dragon body going to inherit Lagi’s “soul” from a device like the Dragon Crest unless his soul has been virtualised to a form that’s equivalent to what the “Heresy Program” is anyway? Alternately if you believe the Dragon Crest somehow stores more than just the data of Lagi’s incarnation then strictly speaking I suppose he didn’t actually discard his body in the first place as Lundi said.

I find it funny when people decide to use the argument that Lundi’s words can’t be taken at face value, when the different dragons theory is itself significantly based on taking Lundi’s words at face value. Even so, Lundi obviously doesn’t know the details about the Heresy Program since literally speaking the Heresy Program doesn’t exist as such, it’s called things like the [Destroyer of Towers] dragon soul (Kimimi’s translation) but never once named the “Heresy Program” in any game, version or translation.

I’ve never had any problem with the idea of different bodies, I arrived at the notion independently and it never seemed like much of an issue. What agitates me is that this whole argument always seems to boil down to the Dragon not being Lagi because it’s not the same body rather than not having the same soul. And if the Dragon Crest interlude meant that Lagi only then becomes one with the new body then it dictates one of three scenarios:

Either Lagi’s body was actually preserved in a certain respect; the dragon souls are only data in which case the Heresy Program and Lagi’s soul can be subjected to the exact same rules of speculation; or the Dragon Crest is able to store a soul literally speaking, and then not only do the second case rules apply but it opens up many other avenues of argument that tend to get dismissed out of hand otherwise.

One way or another every time I’ve argued this point it ends up with people trying to have their cake and eat it too according to the convenience of their belief. Certain facts start being expressed as incontrovertible in the same breath that other facts which stand upon the very same foundation are discarded. I’m just not able to ignore how complicated things actually are. shrug

14

That’s not the point I was trying to make. My assumption is that Lagi’s soul never left his body, we don’t even know if that’s possible for that matter. What we do know is that it’s possible to separate the Heresy Program from the dragon.

If by “he” you mean Lagi then no, he was stored in the crest. The Heresy Program did “discard” his body (Lagi) though.

No, but I don’t see why it needs an official name in order to recognize its existence. It might be called the “dragon’s soul” only because there is no way to tell the difference unless they are separated which is exactly what happens in PD Orta and possibly at the end of Zwei. If Lagi’s soul and the Heresy Program were still combined when they left the body in the Dragon crest then that would mean the dragon pup didn’t have a soul, and I’m not sure if that would make any more sense.

15

So again, you seem to be saying that what Lundi knows about the Heresy Program can’t be taken at face value, but you yourself are taking Lundi’s belief that the Heresy Program separated and found a new body at face value. Not to mention staking your point on an outright assumption that what Lundi is talking about is only the entity that you call the Heresy Program.

16

Since nothing shows that he had any knowledge about the existence of that entity, which is basically what you said in your previous post (in other words he can’t know about it).

I’m only looking for an explanation to the fact that at one point in time there are two dragons. If what Lundi said is correct (in other words Heresy and Lagi’s soul are the same at that point), then those two dragons would both be Lagi.

17

He can’t know about it yet you’re somehow sure you know that it’s the only thing he could mean by it? I’m still missing something…

But OK, if you’re truly just looking for an explanation for that then I’ll supply an alternative…

The second “dragon” is a data record of the anomalous genetic profile that Lagi’s origin represents, perhaps after the imperial Tower changed it’s activity the Dragon, sensing opportunity, split it’s energy in that moment and reanimated the dormant Blue Dragon to deal with the situation.

Then the original body having been destroyed in the Tower’s destruction it found a new host somehow, perhaps that host was part of the existing seed of the Light Wing and in merging with it the dragon soul(s) had to abandon most of it’s own genetic programing in an attempt to avoid overpowering and irreparably contaminating the incomplete Light Wing code.

Only when it had every piece of the “perfected” Light Wing profile could it merge with the Sestren/Heresy overlord dragon profile again, which had already been merged with elements of a coolia’s genetics, and even perhaps in doing so it gained the ability to procreate itself… ?

Not that I necessarily believe any of that as such, but there’s plenty of options man. :anjou_happy:

18

[quote=“The 9th Emporer”]Wow, Thankyou to everyone who responded. I understood perfectly what ya’ll were saying. But I thought of just two more other things that I still haven’t been able to understand. Then I’m good, *promise.

  • lol

1: Didn’t Edge + the dragon destroy Sestren? Because Sestren Space still exists in Orta. And actually, Edge, like Keil and Lundi, both go through this “teleportation” (are put in giant bubbly glowing circles) thing at the end. Lagi managed to teleport Keil and Lundi to safety and the end of their respective games…isn’t it strange that he couldn’t do it for Edge?

2: In my first question, i refer to our flying pal as ‘the dragon’. Is this still Lagi? I mean, is it the same dragon throughout the whole series? The reason I ask this is because I’ve always thought it was the same dragon. The whole Heresy leaving, now you’re mortal deal makes sense, but yet, this confuses me:
Now, the storyline, is Lagi, the mutant coolia, under the influence of Heresy meets Lundi, and Lundi takes care of him. Sestren activates Shelcoof to eliminate Lagi, and attempts to do so by obliterating their small village. Lagi chases after the Shelcoof and evolves into Solo Wing. This is the official evolution due to the flashbacks of Lundi riding Solo Wing during the Guardian Dragon fight given by Sestren. Anyway, Lagi does his dirtywork, cripples the Shelcoof, and seperates from Lundi to enter a long sleep* (*that, I assume). Lagi reawakens for PD with finding(choosing?) the white rider,and eventually the 2nd rider, Keil. Once more, Lagi goes into action and takes out a water tower as well as the Dark Dragon. My question, is, if Heresy still resides in Lagi, and this is in fact who we’re riding on in Saga, why is he not in Solo Wing form from the start?[/quote]

1: edge was dead in the beginning of saga, the divine visitor used edge as a body, when the divinise visitor leaves edge’s body at the end of saga edge is dead again

2: the real ending of zwei is the one where lagi is the blue dragon(don’t know the name) lundi isn’t seperated from the dragon in that ending and it’s the same dragon as in the original panzer dragoon when the sky rider sits on it, the sky rider however just is lundi himself 15 years later and not a different rider

19

The Sky Rider is a drone. :stuck_out_tongue:

20

Eh, no, the Sky Rider is certainly not Lundi that much is certain…

The deal with Edge is also arguable, we can only guess what happened to him. Most people seem to agree on the version mentioned but we really can’t know for sure.

Oh and there’s always the possibility that the baby dragon / Solo Wing quests in Saga were easter eggs for the fans rather than parts of the storyline. There’s a few people who believe that (myself included)…

But man these things have been dicussed extensively in the past, I think we all agreed to disagree in the end as nothing can be proven…