Regarding Wildman’s comments about Famitsu guide for “Saga” [Part 2 of 2]
Drones and Sestren
One of the “problems” that drones experience in case of ego emergence is a problem with recognizing orders.
Judging by how it is described, “be hindered in their ability to recognize orders, that is to say, rejecting complete obedience to the ones giving them the orders” (Glitterberri’s translation), they are given orders by humans. Drones in “normal” condition act as servant humans, they are not directly controlled externally, but they are given orders. And they are given orders by humans, not by Sestren.
This already tells something.
Then, drones are called “Drone Autonomous Structures” (ドローン自律構造体).
What does the term “autonomous” (自律) mean?
In the post #44 I mentioned a psychological theory, and it is not a coincidence.
The term “autonomous” is used in disciplines of science such as philosophy, ethics and psychology (and in developmental psychology, in particular), etc. It is usually used for referring to a person who can think, decide, and act independently of others, - something like a self-sufficient person.
[Disclaimer. Without going into details: mentioning these scientific theories doesn’t mean that I support these theories or people who develop them].
In science and science fiction this term is used towards all kind of “robots” and “artificial life-forms” in a very similar manner, in case if they can act on their own, independently, without any external control. Also, in such cases “autonomous” often translates from Japanese as “sentient”.
The use of such term towards drones already implies something, but there is something else.
In “Saga”, Zadoc says about “wild” aggressive creatures (Mutated) and “controlled” aggressive creatures (Pure-blood Type). Mutated are also called “wild” in “Data on Defeated Enemies” in the Japanese version of the game.
In the guide for “Orta”, pages 30-31, Mutated aggressive creatures are called “wild” and “autonomous” (自律). Because they are not controlled by Old Century ruins, and, therefore, by Sestren. They got away from the control.
An example, from the title of the page 30:
遺跡の支配下にある純血種は兵器的存在で、自律する野生種は生物的存在である。
Translation:
｢The existence of Pure-blood Type aggressive creatures, which are controlled by ruins, is the existence of weapons; while the existence of wild species, which became autonomous, is the existence of living beings.｣
But, taking into account that drones’ “technical” name is “Drone Autonomous Structures”, they are created as “Autonomous Structures”, and they are autonomous by design, from the moment of their creation. They are free from Sestren’s control.
Sestren controls aggressive creatures only via ruins. It cannot control them directly; otherwise there would not be any Mutated aggressive creatures if Sestren could control them all directly across the entire planet.
Azel was created to control the Tower, not vice versa, and she didn’t know anything about Sestren, just its name. It seems that she was given only the bare minimum information that she would need in order to operate the Tower.
After activating the Tower in “Saga”, Azel didn’t fall under its control, while it is logical to assume that she would if drones are controlled by Sestren. She was synchronized with the Tower, and information from it was transmitted to Azel, but Sestren had no influence on her.
In general, the implication that drones are controlled by Sestren doesn’t fit with the logic that Sestren controls aggressive creatures only via the ruins, not directly.
Also, I doubt that Abadd had emergence of ego.
In the guide for “Orta” (page 9) it is said, from the Empire’s viewpoint, that he had emergence of ego (however, a different term is used there, 自我意識, - “self-consciousness”).
But I think it is not as simple as it seems.
Prior to the events of “Orta”, Abadd was working for the Empire, and it seems that he acted according to plans of his masters from the Old Century, and he tried to resurrect them. But, when he understood that it was impossible, he decided to act on his own (some of his phrases in that cutscene after Altered Genos are different in the Japanese version). It is different from the emergence of ego, since the emergence of ego is not a “decision”.
Then, if Abadd was controlled by Sestren prior to the events of “Orta”, it turns out that drones can go away from its control just by their decision, but it doesn’t make sense.
In addition, Abadd can’t be compared to Azel and Orta. He possesses a high level of intelligence, but he is primitive and inhumane.
His goal was primitive, and he killed Els-Enora in Eternal Glacies, while Orta spared her. And Azel felt sorry for Guardians in the Tower in “Saga”, and decided to destroy the Tower so that Seekers could escape.
And there is a problem with all that. On the page 7 in the guide for “Orta” it is written:
自我発生という状況は、冷徹に目的を遂行することを重んずる場合に「障害」となる。
Translation:
｢The situation of ego emergence becomes a “〘problem〙” when it is needed to accomplish a task with a hard-headed [/cold-blooded] approach.｣
It seems that one of effects of ego emergence is that it makes drones humane.
But Abadd was hard-headed, cold-blooded, and violent. He was calculative, acted very logically, coherently toward his goal, and he didn’t care about anything or anyone else. And maybe he was plotting to betray the Empire in advance.
It undermines the assumption that he had emergence of ego.
Also, the translation of 障害 in this sentence is also closer to the meaning of “obstacle”. However, “failure” is also seems to be suitable, but as a synonym of “standard” meanings of 障害.
In addition, in this sentence “ego emergence” is said to be 状況, which is “situation”, “conditions”, “state of affairs”, “circumstances”.
Addition 1, about Azel
Regardless of how the term 障害 should be translated, the main issue with what is written on the page 154 in Famitsu guide for “Saga” is the logic of the text.
It is said that drones with ego emergence have “problems” with synchronization, logic patterns, and recognition of orders.
Which of these problems did Azel have in the beginning of “Saga”?
- Azel controlled Atolm, and later she could synchronize with the Tower. So, she had no problems with synchronization.
- In Underground Ruins of Uru, Azel suggested to Edge, who was her enemy at that time, to cooperate in order to escape from there. So, no problems with logic patterns. And Azel lived by logic, she was calculative, she had problems with feelings and emotions, not with logic.
- Azel listened to Craymen’s orders. She said that it was the sole purpose of her existence. So, no problems with order recognition.
Azel didn’t have any of aforementioned problems, which means that she didn’t have emergence of ego in the beginning of the game. And Edge said that she was different, “no island to cling to”, and Azel answered that it was “normal” for drones to be so.
Also, I think that what happened to Azel is more than just emergence of ego. After the events in the Tower she became somewhat “extrasensory” (which is similar to Alita from “Panzer Dragoon OVA”). I think it is the concept of spiritual “awakening”, “enlightenment”.
There seem to be many details that were brought from OVA to “Saga” (and at least one detail to “Orta”).
Another example of such details is when in OVA Kyle attacks the Prototype Dragon without a gun, standing on the Blue Dragon. This attack is similar to Berserk Techniques; and it is similar to how Azel rides Atolm (standing on him).
And after the battle with Edge in Uru, Azel attacks with a similar looking “enraged” move, after which Atolm shoot several arrows of light.
This scene from OVA seems to be adequate to the lore of the games, especially if the information from Famitsu guide for “Saga”, about how riders control dragons and about dragons’ abilities, is taken into account (I will skip the details for now).
I think that what is happening in OVA makes sense (mostly, at least); and, if there are ideas that were removed from the first Panzer Dragoon, maybe it can explain something, or hint at something.
Back to the “emergence of ego”.
Abadd also didn’t have any of these problems. He controlled a dragonmare, operated the Cradle (Old Century equipment), and even enhanced his dragonmare, which means that he had no problems with synchronization. There is even a straightforward comparison between these his and Azel’s abilities on the page 7 in the guide for “Orta” (except enhancing a dragonmare, of course).
And, although he wasn’t sure what to do with his life (and experienced “glitches” in Eternal Glacies), he had a plan, and had no problems with logic.
These facts also undermine the assumption that he had emergence of ego.
I think that other information from Famitsu guide for “Saga”, - that the “Destruction Faction” made alterations to Azel so she could open a path to Sestren and destroy the Tower, - is also questionable.
It is very difficult to create drones. The “Destruction Faction” had to steal Azel, they couldn’t create a drone with the same capabilities as her (and it seems that they were not able to create drones at all); and making alterations to drones seems to be not an easy task. And besides, they could have accidently damage Azel.
If she was created to control the Tower, then it is logical to assume that she was given full control over its systems, including destruction; and was given abilities to open a path to Sestren by her creators, the “Preservation Faction”. Maybe the “Preservation Faction” needed a “manager”, who could open the path to/from Sestren, and someone who would oversee everything (and having a human appearance) while they were absent from the physical world.
In various materials it is said that dragons were created to be the guardians of Towers.
So, maybe Azel and Atolm were created as guardians of the Tower from “Saga”.
Addition 2
However, I think I understand why there can be an understanding that drones are controlled by Sestren.
In the guide for “Orta”, page 7, it is written, in Seekers’ records, that some materials were found about villages/settlements of drones (demi-humans) that existed even before the Empire was founded.
And there is an assumption that the situation with such drones, who form villages and live like humans, may be something similar to how Pure-blood aggressive creatures become wild.
But I think it is not that simple.
At first, where did this information on such villages come from?
In materials for “Saga” it is written that the number of completed drones was insignificant. And even Seekers didn’t know anything about the existence of drones until they discovered information about them in the memory structures near Uru. So, it was not known about drones, and, judging by that information, there just would be not enough drones to form villages.
And it is very strange that for about 200 years (at the moment of the events of “Saga”) the first Seekers on the continent and then Seekers and the Empire haven’t found any traces of such villages. The first theory about the existence of drones appeared after the events of the first game; and Seekers found information about drones for the first time in memory structures near Uru, during the time when Lundi was their leader.
It is also said, in the guide for “Orta”, that the Empire now excavates many drones, which also doesn’t make sense. All of them were “dead”, though, except Abadd.
About similarities between drones and Pure-blood aggressive creatures.
The ones who wrote that record just wonder if it is something similar/the same.
＜中略＞人間に酷似した外見の亞人たちが、帝国成立以前に、小規模の村落を形成し、人間であるかのような生活を営んでいたという資料が発見されている。
このことから、亞人の自我発生と村落の形成は、攻性生物の野生化と同様の変化と考えられないだろうか。
Translation:
｢ Materials were discovered that before the Empire was founded, there existed demi-humans who looked strikingly similar to humans, formed small villages [/settlements] and lived as if they were humans.
Taking into account this fact, is it possible to think that demi-humans’ emergence of ego, and formation of villages by such demi-humans, is something similar to changes that happen to aggressive creatures that become wild?｣
But drones are created autonomous, they don’t become autonomous as how Pure-blood aggressive creatures go away from Sestren’s control and become so.
Also, drones are not exactly aggressive creatures. There is no direct confirmation of this, but it seems to be so (I will skip the details for now).
Similarity in situations between drones and other aggressive creatures may be that they go away from their “duties”, away from what they originally were created for. They stop being “weapons”, and begin living a life of “living beings”.
But the substance of these situations is different.
As an example: in “Saga”, in the dialogue in the camp between Azel and Edge, after Edge saved her in Uru, Azel said about data transmissions from the Tower, that “Once I am synchronized, it will be transmitted …Even if I don’t want to”.
This, and how she behaved later in Seekers’ Stronghold before going to the Tower, shows that she wasn’t alright with her “duties”, with what she was created for.
In addition, on the page 39 in the guide for “Orta”, under the image of a drone (it is a picture from a circus flyer), it is written that some information of Empire’s researches related to drones leaked to the public. And general public began to see drones and dragons as monsters from fairy tales.
So, maybe the materials about villages of drones originated from modern (or not so modern) legends and fairy tales.
Something else.
As I understand, drones are basically immortal. If it is so, then where are their villages? They should have been preserved up to the modern times.
Then, if drones in such villages were indistinguishable from humans, how it was understood that they were drones, not humans? In the guide for “Orta” it is said that Wormriders didn’t realize that Orta was not a human, except Elder Ponta, - he was the only one who understood it (page 9, paragraph 2).
In the guide for “Orta”, page 45, it is assumed that there were survivors of both warring factions from the Old Century period, and that legends about dragons originated from them, which also explains the difference in views on dragons.
[It may be connected with Sky Rider. His identity is not stated anywhere in the guides, but in the guide for “Orta” it is speculated that he is either a descendant of Old Century people or a drone. But, judging by indirect facts, I think it is most likely that he was a human; and maybe even not a “descendant”, but an actual human from the Old Century.]
So, maybe these villages of drones were actually villages of Old Century people who wanted to hide their identity, and said to some people that they were drones.
In the guide for “Saga” by Famitsu (a chapter about Zoah) it is written that the town of Zoah was not the only town that lived by the Tower’s support. According to that information, Seekers found many similar cities, near some other Towers. They call such cities 塔の街, - “City of the Tower” or “Tower City”.
On the page 143 there is a map with locations of Towers on the continent. Seekers searched through the continent, but there is no mentioning of drone villages (it is also said that some of these cities were already destroyed, for some reason; but, anyway, nothing about drones).
However, on the same page it is assumed that there are about 10 Towers that have not been discovered. So, the only possibility seems to be that villages of drones are connected with cities that could be near these undiscovered Towers, if we assume that information on villages of drones is true.
The information on villages of drones exists only in materials about “Orta”.
But anyway, even if villages of drones really existed, drones are, once again, created autonomous, which means that they are not controlled by Sestren. While Pure-blood Type aggressive creatures are not created autonomous, they have to go away from Sestren’s [/ruins’] control to become autonomous.
According to various materials, there are several types of drones. This is also understandable from Azel’s words from “Saga”, that there are at least two types of drones: standard (“normal”) and non-standard.
But anyway, according to the information for “Saga”, they all are autonomous.
In conclusion to this part, about the guide for “Orta”.
In short, even if some information from the guide is adequate to the canon of the previous games, I still recommend to take “Orta” as a separate canon. There are inaccuracies in the guide, some things don’t make sense, or at least very strange (how Seekers’ are portrayed, for example), and there are retcons, - “demi-humans” instead of drones is one of such examples (there is an “explanation” for this change).
Addition 3
In the post #44 I mentioned terms that correlate with other materials about Panzer Dragoon universe.
The first term is “individual” (個体).
In “Die Welt”, page 84, Lagi is referred to by the Empire as “個体D”, - ｢Individual D｣.
This term is also used (without “D”) quite often in other materials. I didn’t translate it as “unit” because I wanted to avoid potential mixing up between terms like this and “D-Units” which are “D-ユニット” (D-yunitto), literally “D-Units”.
And maybe it was a good idea, since in the guide for “Orta” both terms “individual” (個体) and “unit” (ユニット) are used once in the same paragraph in three sentences in a row.
The second term is “humanoid”, “human-like”, “human-shaped”, or “human-type” (人型).
In materials for “Saga” it is used for referring to drones (maybe somewhere else, but I don’t remember).
In “Die Welt”, page 75, it is written that Hanuman is 人型兵器, - ｢Humanoid Weapon｣.
In the Official guide for the first Panzer Dragoon, page 74, the boss from the Episode 4 is called 人型生物兵器, - ｢Humanoid Biological [/Living] Weapon｣.
If we assume that such “Humanoid Weapons” are some low-level type of drones, then in this case it seems that such “drones” are really controlled by Sestren (via ruins, not directly).
But I don’t think that such creatures can be considered to be drones and compared to Azel and Orta, or even to Abadd.
Concluding addition
There are other “non-mutated” aggressive creatures that are not controlled by Sestren.
It can be understood, judging by the events of the games and by some facts from the guides, that dragons are not controlled by ruins and Sestren.
It is obvious that the Blue Dragon, Lagi, Edge’s dragon, and Atolm were not controlled by Sestren.
I think that the Prototype Dragon and its rider (who is said to be a drone) also were not controlled by Sestren.
The Blue Dragon’s program, “artificial instincts”, was aimed at destroying the Tower, but the Prototype Dragon had the opposite program, aimed at protecting the Tower.
The dragons from the first Panzer Dragoon were awakened not by Sestren, but by their programs as an answer, as a reaction to the activation of the Tower.
In the guide for “Orta”, page 63, it is said that dragons are aggressive creatures that have freedom, they are free in protecting or destroying ruins.
It could be understood that all dragons of both factions, except “pseudo” dragons, like Mass Produced Dragon (Glide Dragon) and Guardian Dragon, are not controlled by ruins and Sestren.
There may be something else that is not controlled by Sestren, but I’m not sure, so I will skip it.
Also, the situation with how ruins and Sestren control aggressive creatures may be more complicated.
It seems that ruins can control aggressive creatures even if Sestren doesn’t have access to ruins, something like “residual effect”, but not only this.
So, maybe it is more correct to talk about not only Sestren’s control, but about both Sestren’s and ruins’ control.
Anyway, if a creature is not controlled by ruins, it means that it is not controlled by Sestren.
The details are not important to the topic of this post, so I will skip them for now.
