Possible explanation for change of art direction in Orta

Well, here’s another far-fetched theory, based on some of my previous theories. What if AI constructs like the Heresy dragon and Sestren are incomplete, like the dragons, and co-exist with a consciousness that ensures they function correctly (like the “will of the Ancients” that controlled Sestren)? One of these consciousnesses went against the other’s will, manipulated its program to disobey the Ancients and was then attacked by the Sestren AI.

Escaping from the system, the consciousness downloads itself into a human (or Drone) and becomes the Skyrider, and the program downloads itself into a dragon. The Skyrider gets killed, and the program has to find another consciousness to fulfil its mission. The Divine Visitor takes its place, and together they defeat Sestren. The heresy program disconnects from the DV and merges with the consciousness of Sestren. However, the program has to be deactivated to ensure the will of the ancients doesn’t manipulate it, and the Ancients’ reign over the world ends.

[quote=“Abadd”]I’m just happy to see that the ideas are all over the map now. For a little while, I was worried that someone might actually figure the whole thing out (I won’t say at what step things went horribly awry, though :D).

Carry on, chaps. Carry on.[/quote]

Phew, I was getting worried there myself.

New theory - neither Team Andromeda nor Smilebit actually worked these details out. They’ve left them very vague so that they’ll have more freedom when writing the plot of the next game, if/when they get the chance to make it.

That’s probably the most reasonable theory that I’ve posted in the last couple of days :slight_smile:

It was me, I think: at least I thought of it for myself, and posted some version of it in an earlier thread.

I agree. If it had been true though, I wouldn’t say that Abadd had “divided loyalties” exactly, bacause the Sestren AI(s) would be the highest representatives of the Ancients left in the world. (Assuming for that moment that the Ancients were in fact dead and Abadd wasn’t trying to ressurrect them.)

Don’t worry, I noticed :slight_smile:

Abadd the only thing you aomplished was getting some elnightenment yourself.

Actually, I was mildly entertained.

You should be thankful that I decided not to play my April Fools’ Joke on these boards :smiley:

Just a random thought (because I’m bored of thinking strictly logically for the time being). Point out straight away if I’m forgetting something.

The black-dragon-symbol and golden-dragon-symbol entities within the Sestren system: the black one is the entity that enters the dragon, but we always assume that the golden one is another avatar of the primary Sestren AI. But is there really any proof of this? These two symbol-entities are obviously related, but the Sestren AI that we fight at the end of Saga looks like something else entirely. If the golden and black symbols are something different altogether, we might be thinking along the wrong lines entirely. Could thay have both been AIs/programs within the Sestren system that existed independantly from the Tower-controlling primary AI?

Here’s the… unusual bit: do we definitely know that these things are even programs or AIs? The name “Heresy Program” is our own creation, after all. Could those two entities have been the stored consciousnesses of Ancients? The kind of masters that Abadd was trying to resurrect?

(Again, if they were both dead since the end of Saga, that would explain why Abadd couldn’t resurrect them.)

I actually believed the gold dragon was in fact the Dark Dragon who pursued the Heresy dragon into the real world (in Sestren’s fifth memory orb a mixing of images of the gold dragon and the Dark Dragon struck me as a symbolic method of identification given how so many other images are overlapped and blended together to convey meaning).

Also, we don’t actually fight a gold dragon at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga. Perhaps the graphical limitations of the Saturn are to blame.

How the Heresy dragon and the gold dragon seem practically identical to one another and how the Heresy dragon actually becomes gold after taking over Sestren is all the evidence anyone needs to tie the gold dragon to Sestren as one and the same.

I’ll explain where my doubts about the golden program being the Sestren AI arise from, although I accept that I might be looking at the script a bit too closely:

In the first memory orb at the end of Saga, we see the dragon program pursued out of the Sestren system by the golden program. We hear the primary Sestren AI’s voice say “Impurity detected… Pursue at once…” To me, that sounds quite like it’s ordering the golden program to pursue the dragon program. If the Sestren AI was the golden program, that would mean that it was talking to itself… which would be weird, but I agree that it would be possible.

In the other memory orbs, though, the Sestren AI definitely is ordering other things to do its bidding. For example, in a Zwei orb we hear “Impurity located… Activate Shelcoof…”, and in the PD1 orb, there’s the command “Impurity reacquired… Eliminate it once more…”, which triggers the activation of the Dark Dragon. I thought that might imply that the golden program was a seperate entity, like Shelcoof or the Dark Dragon.

The whole colour change thing is a bit odd to be honest, because although the black program took over the system at the end of Saga, it didn’t change colour until the later “unseen” dialogue that we experience in the memory cell in PDO. It could be possible that the golden colour doesn’t literally denote the ruler of the Sestren system, just a program that is accepted by the sestren system. Before that the dragon program was branded an “impurity”, which could be why it showed up black within the system. Gold could mean “normal” where black could mean “impure”.

That was my line of thinking, anyway (although it’s not entirely relevant to the main debate).

To be honest, I agree that the dragon program and the primary Sestren AI probably were in some way equals; I’m just looking at a few alternatives that we might not have consiered.

Oh dear.

I apologise in advance for what is the longest post that I will ever make on these forums. I’ve just been thinking through the ideas this thread’s brought up though, and I’ve come up with a pretty reasonable overall theory that just about explains all of these confusing issues that we’ve been discussing. Some of it will inevitably be wrong, but it’s all inspired by quotes and tangible evidences, so it can’t be all bad. I’d almost finished typing it up as a full-on theory, but I thought I’d edit it and paste it in here anyway to get your opinions.

So for anyone who has the time to read through it, here you go:

And Gehn, I’m sorry, I really am :slight_smile:

[A Theoretical History of Everything That Ever Happened Ever]

As we’ve pretty much established, the Towers’ creators were probably one of the most sophisticated groups of their time. They probably had a global presence too, because it seems that they set up Towers all over the world.

As far as most quotes seem to indicate, the reason that the Towers were set up was to ensure control. The creators thought they knew what was best for the world, and for everyone else living in it, and the Towers were the instruments which would create this balance that they desired.

Now the planet apparently became devastated at some point. It’s unclear if the Towers caused this damage themselves in one of their earlier phases, whilst they were trying to subdue the peoples of the world - the Empire’s assertion that the Towers were continent-burning ultimate weapons hints at this. Alternatively, the peoples of the world might have squandered the planet’s resources previously through war or other wasteful means, as Craymen implies. If the latter was the case, it could be this environmental neglect that angered the Towers’ creators into setting up the Towers in the first place.

At any rate, one of the Towers’ main functions was to repair the ravaged environment, while at the same time they set out to regulate everything else too - including the peoples of the world. We know that the Towers’ creators went into some kind of stasis themselves, which was presumably to await the coming of the rejuvenated world that the Towers would produce for them. I talked about Abadd’s “new way of fulfilling his mission” earlier, which seemed to imply that the Towers’ creators wanted to emerge as rulers over the world.

This is where the Ancients’ plans may have begun to go wrong, though. According to some quotes, the Towers were opposed in the Ancient Age; and the Seekers believed that “dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminating all of the active ruins and towers”. The details of this are obviously hazy, but it does seem that the Towers in the current PD world were never operating at full capacity by default. In all three Saturn games they had to be fully activated before they started churning out monsters and really controlling things. The Towers were still affecting the purification of the environment a bit though, because the Great Fall still happened when they were eventually taken offline. They just didn’t seem to be operating at their full capacity, and for most purposes thay seemed dormant.

That seems to back up this assertion that most of the Towers themselves were forcibly shut down at the end of the Ancient Age, by those who opposed the Towers’ creators. Because of this, it’s possible that everything else went wrong as a knock-on effect.

The problems that arose after this might be due to the Tower programme’s intended time frame.

It doesn’t appear that the Towers’ creators ever planned for the Towers’ programme to still be incomplete ten millennia into the future. If the Towers truly had been damaged or partially deactivated in the past, the plans for everything else might have been thrown out of sync, including the planned operations of Sestren. If the Towers weren’t working properly, Sestren presumably couldn’t exercise its programme of control properly either. And, importantly, the nature of the dragon program might have caused further problems in the unforseen long run.

Now, the dragon program was incredibly adept at destroying Towers and deactivating the Tower network. In fact that was all we ever saw it do. For that reason I’m willing to speculate for the time being that shutting down the Towers was actually its intended purpose.

As we’ve observed, the Sestren system seemed to be a massive interconnected array of programs which individually performed different tasks, and which were geared towards either operating the Towers or providing information which would help the Towers to be better run.

The dragon program was presented just like a component of the Sestren system, and it was also perfectly compatible with the system (as we saw when it eventually gained control of the Towers and shut itself down, taking them with it). On top of this, Abadd happily confused us earlier with the notion that the dragon program was directly related to the Towers’ purpose. This would make sense if the dragon program was a part of the Sestren system, because the Sestren system itself was directly related to the Towers.

Now it’s been suggested that it would be more logical for the primary Sestren AI to have the task of shutting down the Towers itself, but remember that the primary AI didn’t by any means do everything. The system was alive with other programs and entities carrying out different tasks. It strikes me that the dragon program may simply have been the piece of programming designed to shut the network down when the time came.

If the Towers were never going to finish their task, though, there was never going to be a “right time” for the dragon program to be released. Sestren classified it as an impurity and a bug, so it might be that the dragon program was eventually released due to some kind of system error - possibly arising from the simple concept that the Network was never designed to cope with being active for ten thousand years. Conversely, the dragon program was also released prematurely, because the Towers’ task was still not done.

The dragon program’s purpose, then, may have been to deactivate the Tower network so as to hand the “sorted out” world over to the Towers’ creators (who would emerge from their slumber to rule over this changed planet). This could never happen though, because as we know, the Towers were never going to be able to finish their work on the planet. Whatever damage or partial deactivation they had endured meant that their creators’ plans were ultimately ruined.

So the dragon program might have been released in an untimely manner, which would obviously displease the primary Sestren AI massively, because it would still want to try and fulfill its own mission (even if this was more or less impossible given the state of the Towers). As we’ve already established, the dragon program was then ejected from the system, it manually blew up some Towers, it got back into the system, destroyed the AI and shut the Towers off itself. Possibly all because the Ancients simply never planned for these eventualities.

It’s also possible that this is why Abadd could not resurrect his masters, too. If the Towers’ process was meant to be finished long before those ten millennia had passed, then his masters might not have been intended to be in stasis for that long. As Abadd said, “it is too late for my ancient masters” - it’s possible that they had literally slept too long and that their bodies or minds had deteriorated beyond the point of revival.

This also might be the reason why Abadd never woke up naturally: his awakening might have been tuned in to the completion of the Towers’ task, which obviously never happened.

So ultimately, although the dragon program’s purpose might have been to take the Towers offline in order to hand control of the world back to its awakened masters, what it actually accomplished was the exact opposite - it took the Towers offline and handed control of the world back to the human races which the Ancients were so desperate to control.


So, yeah - if anyone made it all the way through that, what do you think?

IMPORTANT EDIT: Alternatively you could replace the whole concept of “The Towers were forcibly made dormant in the past” with “The Towers wore out before they could fulfill their programme”. Those are the two explanations offered, anyway, and they’d both mess up the grand scheme of things just as well :slight_smile:

When we see the Dark Dragon reach the Empire’s Tower in Sestren’s fifth memory orb, we catch another brief glimpse of the gold dragon, then Sestren shouts “Activation of D-Type 01 confirmed”, at which point we see the Dark Dragon again. As we know, the Tower in Panzer Dragoon confirms the presence of the Dark Dragon twice – once at the beginning of the game, and once when it reaches the Tower.

The way I see it, Sestren’s memory orbs record everything that is relevant, including its own voice, and they even blend imagery in a similar manner to the Heresy dragon’s visions (which had a tendency to picture the dragon’s future intentions). If the gold dragon didn’t leave Sestren in the first memory orb, then it could only be ordering its minions to pursue the Heresy dragon.

In my eyes, the gold dragon is either Sestren or the Dark Dragon (in order of probability).

This idea has been discussed before but the problem is the Heresy dragon wasn’t obeying the will of the ancients. If it harbored the same loyalty to the ancient ones as Sestren did, it would know that destroying their Towers wasn’t what they wanted. Breaking the spell of the Ancient Age is a clear act of defiance, and I doubt the ancient ones programmed the Heresy dragon “to give humans control of their own destiny”.

Sestren was obeying the will of the ancients, so why wasn’t the Heresy dragon? If it was too soon to deactivate the Tower network, a Heresy dragon programmed by the ancients would honour and obey their wishes by leaving them untouched. Destroying the Towers [at that time] wasn’t fulfilling the will of the ancients.

Would Sestren guard over the world and carry out the will of the ancients in the full knowledge they were all dead? In my opinion, someone ensured that they would never return to the world at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga, which was meant to be the final chapter in the story of the ancients. I always thought Abadd wasn’t meant to awaken until the Towers had finished their task.

I don’t think it’s likely that the Heresy dragon was merely carrying out its orders, not only would it (as Geof said) not want to shut down the towers until the world had been restored but it also seemed very aware that the people that were inhabiting the world at the time were not the ancients and it even refered to these people as “friends”. This suggests to that that it knew EXACTLY what it was doing, and was defying it’s programming.

Also I don’t actually see why they Sestren would need the Heresy program to shutdown the Towers anyway, it would just shut them down itself when the time came.

I think it is most likely that the Heresy program is a part of the Sestrens systems that was tampered with by the rebels.

It might even be a duplicate of the Sestren AI (perhaps stored in something as a backup) that had been stolen by the rebels, had its programming changed and then somehow placed back into Sestren where it could then try and take over and shut the system down like a virus.

I think I understand what Mr Abadd is hinting at when he asked us what the Heresy dragon was meant to accomplish and what it actually did accomplish.

Does anyone remember the description of Lagi at www.sega.com? I do: Lagi was described as a dragon who was created by the gods to bring peace to the world.

What if the Heresy dragon was indeed meant to destroy the actual Towers before someone tweaked its original purpose slightly (in the same manner as Azel), but wasn’t meant to destroy Sestren? What if the ancient ones wanted one of their dragon messengers to harbinger their return by destroying the pure type creatures that had oppressed humanity for so long? The human race would welcome these gods as saviors.

If you wanted to reprogramme a dragon to destroy all the Towers, you’d find the one that was actually equipped to do it. Azel and Atolm may have been the Uru Tower’s guardians before they were stolen and turned against the very Tower they were meant to control. The ancients’ creations became their own worst enemy.

I doubt that the dragon’s original name was “the Heresy dragon”. That was probably the product of someone’s sense of irony.

Indeed, that does seem to cast doubt on the idea that the Heresy dragon was built to destroy the Towers: what would be the point in destroying them when Sestren could simply turn them all off?

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]

That is what casts doubt on the idea of the Heresy dragon being built to destroy the Towers: what would be the point in destroying them when Sestren could simply turn them all off?[/quote]

If Sestren couldn’t activate the Towers (except for Shelcoof perhaps), why would he be able to turn them off? The Drones seemed to have more power over the Towers and ruins than Sestren itself.

[quote=“D-Unit”]

That is what casts doubt on the idea of the Heresy dragon being built to destroy the Towers: what would be the point in destroying them when Sestren could simply turn them all off?
If Sestren couldn’t activate the Towers (except for Shelcoof perhaps), why would he be able to turn them off? The Drones seemed to have more power over the Towers and ruins than Sestren itself.[/quote]

Sestren somehow activated Shelcoof and the Dark Dragon. Also, when the Heresy dragon took control of Sestren space after filling the vacency left behind by the demise of Sestren Exsis, it did actually deactivate the Tower network. That’s what the Heresy dragon meant when it said “The will of the ancients is with me now”. There’s no reason to think Sestren couldn’t shut them all down too IMO.

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]
Sestren somehow activated Shelcoof and the Dark Dragon. Also, when the Heresy dragon took control of Sestren space after filling the vacency left behind by the demise of Sestren Exsis, it did actually deactivate the Tower network. That’s what the Heresy dragon meant when it said “The will of the ancients is with me now”. There’s no reason to think Sestren couldn’t shut them all down too IMO.[/quote]

The network could have been deactivated simply because the Heresy dragon itself was deactivated, and that was the Divine Visitor’s doing. And if Sestren was able to control the Tower of Uru, he would have surely activated it. It seemed he simply couldn’t control the “normal” Towers directly. Remember that Shelcoof didn’t seem to have a drone, which could explain why Sestren had full control over it.

[quote=“D-Unit”]

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]
Sestren somehow activated Shelcoof and the Dark Dragon. Also, when the Heresy dragon took control of Sestren space after filling the vacency left behind by the demise of Sestren Exsis, it did actually deactivate the Tower network. That’s what the Heresy dragon meant when it said “The will of the ancients is with me now”. There’s no reason to think Sestren couldn’t shut them all down too IMO.[/quote]

The network could have been deactivated simply because the Heresy dragon itself was deactivated, and that was the Divine Visitor’s doing. And if Sestren was able to control the Tower of Uru, he would have surely activated it. It seemed he simply couldn’t control the “normal” Towers directly. Remember that Shelcoof didn’t seem to have a drone, which could explain why Sestren had full control over it.[/quote]

But if that was true then why would the Heresy program need to take Sestrens place? Wouldn’t that mean that simply destorying Sestren Exsis would be enough to deactivate the Towers?

But did The Heresy program really take Sestren’s place? The problem may not have been Sestren, but it might have been the “Will of the Ancients”, whatever this was supposed to be, that the Heresy program wanted to deactivate by taking it with him when it was deactivated.

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]This idea has been discussed before but the problem is the Heresy dragon wasn’t obeying the will of the ancients. If it harbored the same loyalty to the ancient ones as Sestren did, it would know that destroying their Towers wasn’t what they wanted. Breaking the spell of the Ancient Age is a clear act of defiance, and I doubt the ancient ones programmed the Heresy dragon “to give humans control of their own destiny”.

Sestren was obeying the will of the ancients, so why wasn’t the Heresy dragon? If it was too soon to deactivate the Tower network, a Heresy dragon programmed by the ancients would honour and obey their wishes by leaving them untouched. Destroying the Towers [at that time] wasn’t fulfilling the will of the ancients.[/quote]

What I was thinking was that the “Will of the Ancients” may not be so easy to define if no Ancients were actually present in the world to confirm what these wishes might be. It also seems that we’re really talking in terms of programs designed to carry out individual tasks here: the primary AI was the bit of the sytem that existed to keep the Towers running, and it’s certainly possible that the dragon program was simply the bit of the system - the bit of Sestren - that existed to switch the Towers off.

If the dragon program was simply the piece of programming that was meant to shut the Tower network down, it’s possible that its creators may have given it no option to not fulfill its purpose once released; because if there was any chance that the dragon program would misinterpret or reinterpret its wishes, that would risk the world never being released from the Tower network’s control. As I pointed out earlier, the creators evidently didn’t want to live in the Tower-operated world - that seems to be why they went into hibernation - but they did want to rule the “finished” world when the Towers were done. Why would they risk giving their creations such choice as to risk never releasing the world from the Towers’ grip?

Theoretically, all of the Sestren system’s components would have to be designed to fulfill their own purpose with absolute single-minded determination: otherwise it would open up problems of reinterpretation etc. that might endanger the overall plan.

The dragon program described its purpose, saying “The duty that spanned thousands of years, is about to come to an end”, which does imply that it was fulfiling its real purpose. The dragon program at that time was also classified as a “bug” or “impurity”, as well, which implies that it was something going wrong with the system, even though the dragon program itself was evidently a part of the system. The “bug” aspect could just be that the dragon program was never mean to be released before the Towers were finished.

As I said, I think we might be thinking of all these AIs in too human terms. The primary Sestren AI’s job was apparently just to run the Tower network; similarly to my above reasoning, if they gave any part of Sestren the mental option of “giving up”, wouldn’t that open up a whole host of problems? That could theoretically explain why the turn-off switch was placed with the seperate dragon program, and why the program turned everything off so single-mindedly - because anything else might risk the Towers getting turned off either too early or too soon.

Remember also that Sestren was trying to keep the Towers running even though they were never going to heal the world. By anyone’s accounts, it was just trying to carry out its original purpose, regardless of how logical it may or may not seem to us. Why would the creators program Sestren to act any differently if they died? They certainly wouldn’t plan to die, and that’s my overall point - I don’t think that the Ancients planned for much of what actually ended up happening.