Possible explanation for change of art direction in Orta

Panzer Dragoon
141

Well Abadd, I think humans were Ancients too. And we all know what happened to them. :slight_smile:

I couldn’t believe that the Heresy dragon was programmed by the ancients to “break the spell of the Ancient Age and to give humans control of their own destiny”. I agree that it was designed and built by the ancients to destroy the Towers, but if it was a loyal minion of the ancients, it would follow their orders to the letter, as Sestren and Abadd so mindlessly did, meaning it wouldn’t have destroyed the Towers yet.

By destroying the Towers at that time, it clearly wasn’t obeying the will of the ancients. Whether it was acting of its own volition or because someone reprogrammed it is unknown.

Unless of course, the ancients programmed the Heresy dragon to free humanity and destroy all the Towers without regard for all their other loyal minions, but that’s stretching the imagination a little too far.

142

I never implied that, even in the part you quoted I’m saying I agree the Heresy program acted on it’s own free will.

Also:

I never implied that the program was really fulfilling the Ancients’ will at all…

143

I know you weren’t. I’m just saying I couldn’t believe that

The ancients would never programme the Heresy dragon to give humans their freedom. The question is: why did the Heresy dragon do so?

I believe it was built by the ancients but hijacked by a virus.

144

The one thing that Lance has taken into consideration that nobody else really has yet, was to try and figure out the Dragon’s original purpose, then separate that from what it actually accomplished.

145

Yet another of my attempts to enter an ontopic discussion that you guys polute with your big posts.C’mon guys make your points shorter!Itaint’ that hard :slight_smile:

Anyways I’m gonna answer the questions for you Abadd.

  1. Who the Ancients were and what was their relation to the world

The Ancients were just another Empire with an advanced technology.They had rivals (other factions ins the PD world,other nations) but they were the strongest.

They were hit by a great natural catastrophy but the Towers helped them thru.Or at least that’s what they expected…

  1. What was the point of Sestren

Sestren was the conduit between the Towers : an elaborate database with many functions.The Ancients built it as the Scion of their culture that was suposed to last forever.Sestren recorded events that woudl take place in the world and it incorporated The Will of its’ masters.

The Ancients knew at some point what would happen to them so they tried to bypass that catastrophy by setting a series of steps that Sestren would have to go trhu in order to “bring them back to the world”.

All drones (the ones that survived the catastrophy) were suposed to follow Sestren’s orders/The Will of The Ancients so that their master’s plan would be fulfilled.

  1. What was the point of the Towers (and on a related question, what were the bio-monsters for?)

Abadd just agve something away with this question :slight_smile:
Anyways the Towers kept the geological balance of the world and cleansed the land of impurities and then regenerated it so that it could now accomodate The Ancients.The monsters were just a means to do that.

Later they became the police of the world by eleminating “impurities” (other people?) from the now restored land.

  1. What was the purpose of the Drones

I said this before.They were Sestren’s agents.

  1. What happened to the Ancients

I said this before also.They were hit by a natural catasthrophy.As they began to die their elite devised a plan so that they could return to this world.They were to be ressurected with the help of Sestren and it’s database.

  1. What is the Heresy Program

A plan B.If all went wrong this program would destroy the shackles of the Ancients’ Will.The world would be free from them.The Ancients might have been altruistic here.

  1. What went wrong with the whole plan?

I dunno.But Abaad certainly couldn’t ressurect its’ masters as intended.

  1. Who is Kenny?

He is the fulcrom upon which the balance turns.

My ideas are like the process that made Pangeia become what it is now so prove me wrong as you will :slight_smile:

146

…If you insist :wink:

But, I have a question: What is it that you think I “gave away” with question #3?

147

Gehn, where do you base your natural catstrophe theory? As far as we know it was the towers/monsters/weapons in general that destroyed the world.

The rest bits have more or less been said before, I guess you didn’t bother reading the “long posts” :stuck_out_tongue: lol (btw your post is long too :P)

Oh and, Abadd, I did write a few thoughts on the original purpose of the Heresy program, I guess I was just not close at all?

148

I don’t think that it’s ever really mentioned if the monsters where part of the deal.

Plus you are already implying that the Tower wanted something cleansed.

149

But, everyone here seems to know that the Towers themselves create the pure-types. I am merely asking what for.

edit: Al3xand3r, you’re thinking is along the right lines. Won’t say what details you got correct and what details you got wrong, but not a bad effort.

150

Well I answered. :slight_smile:

Al3x I don’t know why my theory would be wrong tho.

And yes that was big but that was a Q&A :slight_smile:

151

‘And God saw nothing but evil in the hearts of men’

I think the Ancients created the Towers as means to an end - in other words, they felt that their world was unclean and evil and decided to start from scratch. The Towers were literally meant to create a catastrophe - just like the Great Deluge.

152

Long ago, I remember you stating that Sestren was “always meant to create the dragon”, but why? This is where many people naturally assumed the dragon was “originally” meant to destroy the Towers as part of the ancients’ plan, but here you’re suggesting that this isn’t the case. By destroying the Towers, the Heresy dragon wasn’t obeying the will of its creators, even if it was “released early”.

“Our purpose is to fulfill the will of the ancients”. (Assuming Sestren is talking to the dragon here and not the Divine Visitor which I believe it was) I gather that the Heresy dragon had a purpose that didn’t involve blowing up the Towers, but what? What other purpose could it possibly serve? Taking control of Sestren and shutting down the Towers is no different than blowing them all up, which isn’t what the ancients wanted, otherwise Sestren would’ve done it itself.

According to Craymen and the Seekers pure type creatures were essentially caretakers of the ecosystem. They stop vermin from spreading. The description of Lazara even states that such pure type creatures are sent to remove anything that threatens the delicate ecological balance the Towers maintain. The ancient ones were doing everything in their power to save a dying world and they wouldn’t tolerate any interference.

153

[quote=“Kadamose”]‘And God saw nothing but evil in the hearts of men’

I think the Ancients created the Towers as means to an end - in other words, they felt that their world was unclean and evil and decided to start from scratch. The Towers were literally meant to create a catastrophe - just like the Great Deluge.[/quote]

Then why keep humans alive?

"You heard it from Craymen? He claims the Tower will restore this world. If the Tower ran our lives, there would be no war. But we’re not really living. Just being kept alive."

"But I’m sick of being kept alive by the ghosts of the ancient ones."

Perhaps Abadd’s masters were already dead and yet Sestren was still carrying out their will because it knew no other purpose. I personally believe that the Heresy dragon and/or the Divine Visitor shut down their hibernation chambers at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga along with the Towers.

154

Here’s a couple of theories:

The black Heresy Program was the “backup” or “replacement” Sestren AI.

It was meant to take over the running of the Tower network from the golden Sestren AI at some point. When its time came though, it re-evaluated its purpose and decided that the world would be better off if the Towers were shut down. It endeavored to fulfill this task.

And following on from that, a theory that’s just struck me which has never crossed my mind before:

When Abadd said he was trying to “resussitate his ancient masters” he was actually referring to the golden Sestren AI and its black twin AI (what we call the Heresy Program).

Drones were apparently servants of Sestren who existed to carry out the Ancients’ will, so the term “masters” would make sense when applied to these entities. Note also that he said “ancient masters”, not Ancients.

Abadd was trying to reboot the Tower network, but this was impossible because the Heresy Program and the primary Sestren AI were both long dead (since the end of Saga). The world could no longer be controlled by the Towers, so Abadd’s primary objective - i.e. ensuring the continued running of the network - had failed.

In order to try and fulfill his mission - that is, making sure that control was exercised over the world - Abadd wanted to create a race of Drones that would carry out the same purpose that they Towers used to; they would keep human populations under control and make sure that the environment could not become endangered.

That would explain why Abadd wanted to make the race of Drones, anyway. It would also explain why he couldn’t ressurrect his “masters”, and it would explain who his “masters” were.

Yes, it’s an unusual theory. Thoughts anyone?

EDIT: I’m trying to take into account what Abadd-the-poster said earlier, both about A) Abadd-the-character saying something significant in that resurrection scene and B) something involving the rebooting of a system.

155

Very nice idea.The simple fact that I never imagined that possibility (that Abadd was talking about somehing else) makes me crie :slight_smile:

Stiill I don’t think I agree with Sestren and the Heresy Program beeing on the same side…

156

I like the Sestren replacement theory the best (I can’t remember who suggested it first). By “ancient masters” I assume Abadd is referring to his creators. Even Sestren served the will of someone who it called the “ancient ones”, and I doubt Abadd would have any divided loyalties, especially in the light of the drone record in which the ancients ensured that their drones proffessed absolute loyalty to them.

As informative as Abadd is, he once wrote that he wasn’t here to provide us with answers. Nor should we take everything he writes at face value. :slight_smile:

157

*Collective thought train derailment = Successful!

Mission accomplished.

158

Well the Heresy Program wasn’t on the same side technically - by that theory, anyway - because it would have changed decided that the Towers were better off shut down.

I’m almost certain that the Ancients did indeed create the Heresy Program as some kind of twin / backup / replacement / companion for the golden Sestren AI. It would explain why the Heresy Program could be “defying the Ancients’ will” in Sestren’s opinion, why it was in the Sestren System anyway, and why it looked exactly like the golden Sestren AI (just in a different colour).

159

[quote=“Abadd”]*Collective thought train derailment = Successful!

Mission accomplished.[/quote]

If you mean that my bizzare theory’s right, I’m going to die laughing.

EDIT: If you mean that you’re just confusing us, that’s great, I’m reassured :slight_smile:

160

I’m just happy to see that the ideas are all over the map now. For a little while, I was worried that someone might actually figure the whole thing out (I won’t say at what step things went horribly awry, though :D).

Carry on, chaps. Carry on.