Possible explanation for change of art direction in Orta

Panzer Dragoon
1

Alot of people, including myself, were pissed off with the art direction in PDO - the main complaints were about how the airships looked almost entirely mechanical with no organic influence, whatsoever.

But after reading the Encyclopedia thoroughly, I’ve come to the conclusion that this is a relatively new trend within the PD universe. For instance, it is said that the ‘Academy’ learned how the anti-gravity mechanisms within the biological airships worked - even though, it is admitted, they do not completely understand the physics behind the technology. But it’s safe to say that the new empire has incorporated this technology into its arsenal, which would explain why the airships look purely mechanical.

It is also possible that Edge destroyed most of the Empire’s airships in PDS - meaning that the new empire didn’t have time to excavate anymore ships out of the ruins, and were forced to learn how the technology worked in order to mass produce its own arsenal to maintain its newly aquired power.

2

When Craymen wiped out the Imperial capital, the explosion probably took out a large portion of the Imperial fleet with it. The Empire also had other cities and outposts, so I doubt the fleet we saw in Panzer Dragoon Saga, which Craymen referred to as the command fleet, represented the full force of the Empire.

What makes us think the anti-gravity engines the Empire used to construct its fleet were organic? Shelcoof isn’t organic in nature, nor are the Towers.

3

The old Empire was almost completely destroyed at the end of Saga. It’s the Southerners’ army that brought it back to its former glory, but this caused the change in design of the Imperial ships.

I’m not sure what you mean about the anti-gravity technology. If they really understood the Ancient technology, the ships should look more organic (like Shelcoof, which does seem very organic to me) instead of mechanical, and not the other way around. Almost all of the flying ships use the float engines, and I don’t think you can really separate the anti-gravity technology from the engines. It’s possible the Cradle was able to create float engines, which would explain how the Empire rebuilt their army that fast.

I wouldn’t say they weren’t organic. In fact, I think it’s possible that Towers were actually “grown”. Pandora’s Box even states that all of the Ancient technology was based on the manipulation of genetics.

4

The Empire’s merger with the “Southern Peoples” is also cited as being a major (if not the major) cause of the changing style of airships:

An interesting side effect of the sudden
influx of this new island culture was
the effect it had on industrial design in
the “new” Empire.
The dramatic styles and colors of
the island people quickly permeated
Imperial culture, and soon their cultural
influences could be found everywhere.

(With the “dramatic styles and colours” referring to the trailing flags and much more colourfull fuselages of the “new” Empire’s ships, I believe.)

I suspect that the passage referring to the Academy’s knowledge of anti-gravity mechanisms (Float Engines) is just a general observation, as well(rather than a new thing). They have been using those same anti-gravity mechanisms (Float Engines) since the time of PD Zwei, after all.

If you examine all the new airships in the Encyclopedia’s 3D gallery, it’s easier to see how the old float engines have been incorporated into the new ship models. They generally have much more of the Empire’s “primitive” metalwork grafted onto them now, though, so I can see where the “mechanical” criticism is coming from.

I agree that a good deal of the Imperial Fleet had probably been wiped out in PD Saga, but I’m not sure what you mean about the Empire not having time to excavate any more ships, Kadamose. Practically every ship in PD Orta is still built around one of the Ancient Age’s (excavated) Float Engines, after all…

EDIT: Most of which was already pointed out by D-Unit, who doesn’t mess around with posts as much as I do :slight_smile:

5

I think they just wanted to invent a new style, (the same way they invented a new style on the Saturn) and I imagine the story of PDO (the southern people) was created to purport changing the style a bit. They probably didn’t want to have the critical mark that it was too derivative.

It isn’t a bad style there are things I like about it ( if it was a different series, I’d probably praise it- I realize some people on the forum prefer it), but overwhelmingly I was (and still am) disapointed there was never were a high-res, detailed versions of the icons (the airships, etc) that were stapes to the series.

As opposed to a lot of series that get stale and never innovate, Panzer was played by so few people that I think just visually updating everything to be high-res would have brought a lot of the old designs to the masses, where now they only sit on old consoles and emulators, awaiting somebody to give them new life.

6

Agreed. The Empire definitely had some “classic” Battlecruisers left, too: subtley hidden in PD Orta’s opening FMV.

All of the Ancients’ creations do have a very similer (arguably organic) appearance to them, it has to be admitted. Also, consider the following statement from the Encyclopedia:

Previously, it was thought that only
plants and animals contained genetic
materials, but as research on
the Ancient Age and its technologies
continued, scientists soon realized that
the manipulation of genetics was
the very foundation for all ancient
technologies.
Upon discovering this great revelation,
the Academy concentrated all of its
efforts into understanding genetics and
learning how to manipulate them.

That passage does heavily imply that all of the ancient’s creations came about through genetic engineering. This would also explain why sentient things (like monsters) and inanimate structures (like Shelcoof) are both made out of exactly the same materials. While I wouldn’t go as far as to say the ruins were alive, that passage seems to imply that the ruins and Towers were primarily “grown” rather than built.

7

I don’t know what you mean by organic Kadamose.As far as airships are concerned anyways.

8

The “Float Engines” that the airships are built around do look very much like bits of pure-type monsters; but you can’t see these “organic”-looking parts as clearly in PD Orta, which is what I think Kadamose is getting at.

My thoughts exactly. It’s very hard to please old fans, critics and new fans with art design, and it’s very hard to please hardcore fans in general when it comes to sequels. Though I agree that some of the new ship (and monster) designs don’t have the feeling of raw inspiration that their Saturn predescessors did, they’re actually growing on me…

9

Organic?PDOrta looks organic.Almost everything in it.When I think of organic I think of vivd colors and kinky forms…

10

I thought some of the monsters looked sufficiently original. But others, well… I think the worst design in the whole thing was the dragonmare, which looked exactly like an alien (of the Sigourney Weaver variety) from the neck on.

And the fact that Orta’s dragon was green and had those little claws on its wings kinda bugged me, too.

11

[quote=“Lance”]All of the Ancients’ creations do have a very similer (arguably organic) appearance to them, it has to be admitted. Also, consider the following statement from the Encyclopedia:

Previously, it was thought that only
plants and animals contained genetic
materials, but as research on
the Ancient Age and its technologies
continued, scientists soon realized that
the manipulation of genetics was
the very foundation for all ancient
technologies.
Upon discovering this great revelation,
the Academy concentrated all of its
efforts into understanding genetics and
learning how to manipulate them.

That passage does heavily imply that all of the ancient’s creations came about through genetic engineering. This would also explain why sentient things (like monsters) and inanimate structures (like Shelcoof) are both made out of exactly the same materials. While I wouldn’t go as far as to say the ruins were alive, that passage seems to imply that the ruins and Towers were primarily “grown” rather than built.[/quote]

That passage is a description of the Bio-reactor; what makes you think the “technologies” the Empire is referring to in this context aren’t the bio-weapons (especially dragons) that the Empire was so desperate to control?

The Tower of Uru, especially on the inside, seems metallic, and is full of electronic equipment and metallic sentries. You can’t tell me that the huge rotar blades inside the Tower of Uru were organic. When Edge discovered two of Craymen’s men dead in one of the said Tower’s corridoors, did the reflective marble floors seem organic? The black Tower outside the Imperial capital didn’t seem organic to the naked eye either.

I simply don’t agree that the Towers, Shelcoof or the anti-gravity engines the Empire modifies were alive in any way.

12

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]
That passage is a description of the Bio-reactor; what makes you think the “technologies” the Empire is referring to in this context aren’t the bio-weapons (especially dragons) that the Empire was so desperate to control?

The Tower of Uru, especially on the inside, seems metallic, and is full of electronic equipment and metallic sentries. You can’t tell me that the huge rotar blades inside the Tower of Uru were organic. When Edge discovered two of Craymen’s men dead in one of the said Tower’s corridoors, did the reflective marble floors seem organic? The black Tower outside the Imperial capital didn’t seem organic to the naked eye either.

I simply don’t agree that the Towers, Shelcoof or the anti-gravity engines the Empire modifies were alive in any way.[/quote]

How do you explain how the Tower of Uru was able to ‘morph’ into a completely different structure like it did in PDS? Don’t you remember that scene? And we’re not necessarily saying that the technology is alive, per se, instead, we are implying that they were ‘grown’ and then inorganic material was added later (rotar blades etc)

13

The Tower of Uru didn’t morph; it melted under the pressure of the release of so much energy (the most damage was done by the fact it was severed from the Sestren data circuit).

14

At first the dragon’s claws bothered me too until I saw it run in the snow level :wink: it was a cool moment imo. I still prefer the old dragon designs though.

Also I think the float engines are still very much visible in PDO’s airships, what I don’t like is that they look as good as new, totally smooth and even those trademark black “cracks” look smooth and symetrical. That’s the change I don’t like in them, and ofcourse like everyone else the fact older airships don’t make a re-appearance. And that change in art direction can’t be explained in any “they now use the technology better” way, it’s a thing that exists in both old PD games and PDO and yet it still looks very different. And different in a way that has nothing to do with the higher quality models and textures.
Anyway, I can just about live with that (though I’d love a return to the roots) but another thing that ruined it for me was that airship boss with the claws rotating around it, like someone else said the first time I mentioned it, this boss would be more fitting in Skies Of Arcadia than in a PD game. I hope we won’t see more of that type of designs in a next PD.

About the dragonmares, I quite like their design, I didn’t like the fact a level was devoted entirely to them though, they aren’t that interesting to me. I don’t think they look like Aliens at all though, I mean, you can clearly see it’s some kind of totally altered/mutated animal that used to be something else… Eyes on their back, a “neck” which is actually the mouth extended that shapes the neck (all those teeth on the sides) and other parts make them look just how they should imo…

Anyway, overall I like the new creatures though I’d like to see old creature designs more and I like the new ship designs though I’d both like to see the float engines with the old look on the new ships and also the old airship designs. Oh and ofcourse some more interesting enemy patterns like PDZ had.

About the dragon, I like the base form the least of all (though the running was cool) but I think the other two forms, glide wing and heavy wing had some very interesting and nice looking transformations that wouldn’t have been out of place in the previous PD games. Again though I prefer the old style more.

And to whoever says that all I want is a remake of PDZ or PDS, well, that’s not true at all. Did you see anyone have bad things to say about PDZ after having playing PD1? Or bad things about PDS after having played PDZ? Cos I haven’t and yet if you compare them the style in them IS different, it’s just a natural evolution of the previous games rather than something new and totally altered in ways, it just looks right that way, and ofcourse none of those games is a remake of a previous one. Imo Orta’s changes aren’t natural and that’s why they look out of place to me, I went as far as saying it has a “Washed out” Panzer feel in another thread and I still stand by that…

15

It certainly does lead up to the description of the Bio-Reactor / Cradle, but that passage I’ve quoted is referring to Ancient technologies in general; it does state very emphatically that the manipulation of genetics was “the very foundation for all ancient technologies” - so that would include pure-types, Float Engines, ruins, Towers and all the other relics.

What makes me think that it does indeed mean this is the fact that most pure types and ruins are made out of exactly the same white/black substance. That substance is incredibly smooth, flowing and organic-looking. Now I’m not saying that the ruins are alive: that white/black stuff seems more like the organic armour of an insect or an armadillo or something similar. But then some examples, as you say, look very un-organic.

The thing is, pure-type monsters for the most part don’t look particularly organic in a “natural” sense either: but they definitely are organic. They are unmistakably made out of the same white/black stuff as the ruins; and that white/black stuff also doesn’t seem like any normal work of artifice. I don’t think the idea that it’s genetically created is unreasonable, though I agree that some individual examples (Towers etc.) seem to be made out of a more artificial version of this substance.

16

According to the Seekers the Towers were machines contructed by the ancients, as opposed to living, breathing organic ruins grown from the ground up:

The rulers of the ancient times
created an administrative system
throughout the world to control
the population of the humans
with large machines. These
machines are known as ‘Towers’.

17

Geoff: I thought that the Rotor relics inside the PD Saga Tower didn’t look much different to float engines myself: what makes the Tower look so different is its blue colous scheme, but then certain monsters and relics had the dark black-and-blue colour scheme and they were still organic.

BTW, if you compare Atolm to a Black Fleet ship, they both have exactly the same black-armour-with-blue-lines design. If they weren’t both made through the same principles of genetic creation, that would seem pretty odd.

As Al3x just reminded me, too, the dragon’s Glide Wing form in PDO looks more “mechanical” than pretty much anything else I can think of: I mean the later forms have those light-up blades along its wings, which don’t look remotely natural to me. I don’t think that visuals are that good a judgement of whether something is organic or not, because some very, very un-organic looking things like this have been confirmed as organic.

18

I don’t think that statement should be taken out of context.

How can an anti-gravity engine be organic and still keep the hull of a ship afloat? Only something mechanical in nature could generate an anti-gravity field. This is no doubt why flying pure type creatures like Lazaras are in fact bio-mechanical.

19

I have wondered about this too, and I’m almost convinced Team Andromeda kept their appearances similar to reflect their alliance. Dragons can morph, so I wouldn’t put it past Azel to morph her dragon’s skin colours to make them instantly recognisable to her new allies.

20

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]According to the Seekers the Towers were machines contructed by the ancients, as opposed to living, breathing organic ruins grown from the ground up:

The rulers of the ancient times
created an administrative system
throughout the world to control
the population of the humans
with large machines. These
machines are known as ‘Towers’.[/quote]

The Seekers have been wrong about other things, though: like the nature of Sestren, for example. (“Astral Passages beyond our world”? An uncomprehending description of a virtual reality data network to say the least). From a purely plot-orientated point of view, as well, the Empire works with ancient technology infintely more than the Seekers do, so I’d expect them to know more about it. Then there’s the fact that Smilebit are presenting this to us as the more recent (and therefore likely more accurate) explanation (again, like the Sestren thing).

Don’t forget that the “programs” in the Sestren network are confirmed as being organic, too. As I said before, something’s appearance is evidently a very poor judge of its organic / inorganic nature.

Besides which, it’s confirmed emphatically in pretty plain English: “the manipulation of genetics was the very foundation for all ancient technologies.” I don’t see why you think that I’m taking it out of context: it really can’t mean anything else, unless you’re assuming it to be a translation error.

This isn’t presented as being a theory: it’s presented as being quite a revelation. Although I agree that it’s odd, it does seem to be the relative truth.