Whats behind Gash?s mask?

[The_Ancient]

Supposing Azel was created with the ability to break into the Tower from the start (supposing this was not something that the rebels added to her), this gives her significant importance not only in the story of Panzer Dragoon Saga, but in the plan of the Ancients too. It may be indeed that the towers were always meant to be shut down after a certain period of time, and Azel could have been created for this task. The scientists speak of Azel not being complete when she was stolen, so perhaps further control ‘mechanisms’ were planned for her so that she could only destroy the Tower/open the gate to Sestren at a certain time. Or perhaps, she simply would have had less free will/more loyalty to the Ancients (like Abadd), preventing her from wanting to go against the will of the Ancients.

Azel complicates things more than any other factor, for me. If it wasn’t for her role in how things played out, a lot of other things could seem fairly cut-and-dry. Since she proved necessary for the Heresy Dragon to reach Sestren, it originally seemed to make perfect sense that Azel and Atolm were intended to be one half of a team with Sky Rider and Armored Blue. But looking deeper there’s just too many things to contradict that possibility, first among them that there’s no thematic crossover between the conventional development of Azel/Atolm and how/where the Heresy Dragon appears to manifest.

And on the subject of Atolm… I’ll pose a question that - if we had an answer to - could narrow things down greatly. What seems more likely here:

If Azel was stolen, was Atolm a dragon then prepared for her by the Rebels?

Or was Atolm custom developed to be hers and hers alone?

The second option seems far more likely to me, but it’s also the far more complicated option. If I could believe the first, then the most popular scenario where it all comes down to rogue reprogramming or some such, might begin to move into the realm of probability. But this is the sort of issue I always get hung up on when trying to see things that way.

Interesting point. I imagined that the dragons ending the Ancient Age point was part of the plan of Abadd’s masters. By terminating/shutting down the active Towers, the life support system of the planet would have been shut off so that the birth of a new world could begin, created for the return of the Ancients. I base this idea largely off Nausica? of the Valley of Wind. Of course, Nausica? and Panzer Dragoon are two different stories (the former of which has no Divine Visitor equivalent), so the Divine Visitor’s involvement in the downfall of the Ancient Age may well have been relevant.

While the dragons are indeed the “God Warriors” of Panzer Dragoon’s past, even that parallel seems to break down, and is in a sense part of my point in the first place. Assuming a direct parallel, the dragons would have been instrumental in cleansing the world in preparation for it’s reformation (unless I’m confused about that), so why would they then be “terminating” the instruments of said reformation? (EDIT: I see I probably misunderstood your implied sequence of events there, though the discrepancy in the parallel mostly holds. And my followup post pertains to reasons the terminating the Towers was a part of Abadd’s Masters’ plan premise has never seemed too likely.)

In the terms you put it, it makes a lot of sense. But again, is that the scenario suggested anywhere else? From Craymen and Gash’s dialogs, the characterization always seemed to me that the planet was on life support now, and had been since the Ancient Age? If it’s to make any sense as such, there’s perhaps some issue of timing that has not been made clear to us. But that is a variation I’d never really considered before, and I’m intrigued by the possibilities now…

I think betrayal of some sort of likely too. If Craymen is correct, and the warring nations built the Towers together, it may be that an elite few were selected to be part of the plan, while the rest were excluded. I can imagine a scenario where the world is overpopulated and humanity has almost consumed every natural resource on the planet. The leaders of one or more nations decide that the population must be reduced, and the world restored, and so a period of annihilation (the downfall of the Ancient Age), and then then healing (the years after where the Towers control/create a habitable environment) take place. The Divine Visitor could, in this situation, be the will of the excluded people, an anti will of the ancients if you like.

Some variation on that plot is I think a certainty. Connecting to the previous caveat, Craymen seemed to view that “healing” as a continuing, perhaps even unending process.

That is the purpose of these ruins, or what we call the Tower. It creates a habitable environment for an already dead planet… To this day, we’re protected by the power of the Ancient Age. I’m sure you’ve grown to loathe the monsters. They have a purpose. Essentially, they act as the caretakers of the ecosystem. Their actions, all, are to protect mankind from extinction.

{Craymen} This world was constructed by the ancient ones as a delicate balance. The Tower, the monsters, everything is interwoven… Long ago there was dissension among the ancient ones. After centuries of fighting, …the warring factions built this.

He does have a skewed perspective no doubt, perhaps having his own sort of messiah complex or something. But again, at face value it’s quite explicit the Towers and monsters are equally a part of the current balance, and so contradicting the idea they may have been somehow “terminated” in their previous function. Though again, I am now intrigued by the possibility of translation ambiguities, perhaps consolidating things that happened at different periods into a singular depiction?

[quote=“Solo Wing dragon”]

Then of course Sestren, whom I firmly believe is a dragon soul, and who definitely appears wearing the skin of a very particular dragon. That dragon is also arguably the herald those residents of Zoah might be expecting to see, it appears on every dragon crest we know of, including one deep in their forest of blessings. Whether dragon or not, the common denominator with the Heresy Dragon is that they’re both intensely powerful entities with origins in the system…

Yeah, that’s one possibility. Another is that the Heresy Dragon was originally meant to be part of the plan of Abadd’s masters. If the Heresy Dragon was meant to destroy the Towers as part of the plan of the Ancients, the dragon mentioned in the Dragon Bible could refer to the Heresy Dragon. This is also assuming that the end of the Towers cycle would coincide with a new Age of the Gods (the return of Abadd’s masters).[/quote]

I wasn’t too clear there, but what I meant is that the specific image that Sestren wears, of the Solo Wing / Blue Dragon, is I believe the iconic dragon of this world. If the faithful of Zoah have any picture of what their divine herald should look like… it’s probably that one.

To the other points: it seems that might be the most popular assumption, that the HD was intended to “terminate” the Towers as part of the plan, but the original conditions were not met and it’s interpretation fell into conflict with Sestren’s? It is perhaps the one that I’ve seen echoed the most anyway. And while I have some recollection of reading the original discussions that arrived at that scenario, I also recall I couldn’t ultimately agree with the reasons for it. As such it has no direct literal basis, and subjectively, it’s just a very inelegant - if admittedly dramatic - way to transition from one functional state to another.

But as it relates the preceding caveats, once again… how many times are these freaking Towers supposed to get “terminated” then?

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]I’m not quite convinced on this one. The other dragon/rider pairs, (e.g. Azel and Atolm) do not, as far as we know, require another entity to complete their combat unit. I think the Divine Visitor was necessary for the completion of the mission (freeing the world from the will of the Ancients), but perhaps didn’t need to be there for all of it.

Panzer Dragoon Saga is the only game in the series where we, the player, have direct control of Edge’s movement off the dragon. I’m convinced this has something to do with the Divine Visitor. The concept of a zombie Edge doesn’t appeal to me either, however more control or perhaps just guidance over Edge than the other dragon riders may be the case here. Perhaps the Divine Visitor didn’t/couldn’t save the Sky Rider’s life because it wasn’t yet time… a time that came when Azel was unearthed and the dragon was on the final path to completing his mission.[/quote]

Firstly, I accept the point to a point, there is plenty of room for interpretation. But I did not intend to imply the need for a “third entity” as a general requirement of the combat unit. Only that 1: if the HD is unique in it’s relationship with the DV then… 2: it is conspicuously not unique if it yet always has to have a physical rider to become that combat unit. Presumably the DV had a requirement in possessing one of those physical riders, so it’s more than merely plausible that requirement had been in play for all of them.

The Sky Rider becomes the most useful subject again, for if it was presumably intended for it’s role - and certainly it was created to be a dragon rider, whether that dragon’s rider or not - why might it have been the least effective rider in practice? I like to think it’s because a human is actually much more versatile - and to go by the info we have, explicitly more intelligent - than most drones could ever be. So why are the dragon riders generally drones? Because “they are not creatures easily handled by ordinary men”, as Azel clearly found Edge surprising.

So something very unusual is happening here, and if the dragon “exists to lead the Divine Visitor” then it lead that Visitor by literally carrying it on it’s back at one point.

Or if the dragon “could not exist without the Divine Visitor” then it means it’s current nature, as an entity capable of defying it’s erstwhile programming and interfacing with a human, was made possible by that Visitor.

The symmetry of the theme is what matters, part of the reason our dragon was so powerful is because of US.

About the Dragon

{Azel} How do you become as one?
{Edge} As one with what?
{Azel} With your dragon.
{Edge} I can’t do anything like that.
{Edge} I’m just a passenger on his back.
{Azel} But…
{Azel} There is something
{Azel} special between you and your dragon.
{Azel} Some sort of unique bond exists…

About the Dragon

{Azel} I feel something very special
{Azel} between you and your dragon.
{Azel} Some sort of unique bond exists…

It is very near to being explicit that the Divine Visitor is the reason Lagi and his rider are such a phenomenal combat unit in Saga. The Divine Visitor is what makes it possible… and it’s something that should be impossible in the first place? So let’s drop the notion of possession, at least for the other riders, but it makes sense to me that the DV is what creates a focal point, for the psychic synchronizing of the dragon’s own ability.

[The_Ancient]

Two general theories I have been reminded of have something in common, they are often referenced as a known quantity, yet I don’t seem to regard them as such.

The above mentioned scenario, summed up as: the Heresy Dragon’s purpose of terminating the Towers was itself always an intended part of the Sestren grand plan. It’s heresy is in deciding to do so either before the intended time, or for a different reason.

And the related issue, referenced in that PD’s Atlantis topic, summed up as: the Towers are unable to complete their task, the requirements for the intended return of the Ancients could never be met, and so the world was only inexorably winding down until Sestren was finally deactivated.

Both are very worthy hypotheses, and the arguments that have been made are compelling, but they are truly still theories. I have always kept the possibilities in mind, since they are plausible and popular, but being ornery I’ve never been able to fall into lock step with them either. And since this recent rant is actually the closest I’ve ever come to diagramming all the issues that hold me from accepting those themes as “fact”, it’s relevant to the thread I’m on here.

I sometimes get the impression my ideas may seem far out because they don’t conform to those “facts” - as their status has been elevated to - and thus block any further consideration. But they are not actually fact, they are theories as any other. Though of course, if anyone wishes to challenge that, I will welcome the opportunity to try to hash it all out?

[Solo_Wing]

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]And on the subject of Atolm… I’ll pose a question that - if we had an answer to - could narrow things down greatly. What seems more likely here:

If Azel was stolen, was Atolm a dragon then prepared for her by the Rebels?

Or was Atolm custom developed to be hers and hers alone?

The second option seems far more likely to me, but it’s also the far more complicated option. If I could believe the first, then the most popular scenario where it all comes down to rogue reprogramming or some such, might begin to move into the realm of probability. But this is the sort of issue I always get hung up on when trying to see things that way.[/quote]

The second option seems more likely to me as well. I like to think that all the dragons/drones were created together by the Uru faction, although of course we have no absolute proof of this.

The Uru faction was, perhaps, a collective of scientists from different nations. I think this, because of what Craymen says:

This world was constructed by the ancient ones as a delicate balance.
The Tower, the monsters, everything is interwoven…
Long ago there was dissension among the ancient ones.
After centuries of fighting,
…the warring factions built this.

This is the only point in the game that says the Tower(s) were created by more than one faction. I actually wonder if this could be a translation error, as it (somewhat) goes against the statement directly before, that there was disagreement among the Ancients. Unless, the Towers were created by a collation of some of the Ancient nations, but not all.

In either case, supposing the Uru faction was made up of members of different nations and this Uru faction created all the drones and dragons, it goes nicely with the fact that the different dragons encountered in the games have many similarities. The Dragon goes through many different forms, and even though he is heresy dragon, he possesses the same form as the Dark Dragon at a certain point, strongly suggesting that they were designed by the same scientists. The same is true for the two drones in Panzer Dragoon (assuming, of course, that the Sky Rider was a drone).

So, if the Heresy Dragon - a rebel dragon - was created by the Uru faction, it gives us reason to think that Atolm was too, if only because this idea is consistent with the idea that all other dragons were created by the same faction.

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]While the dragons are indeed the “God Warriors” of Panzer Dragoon’s past, even that parallel seems to break down, and is in a sense part of my point in the first place. Assuming a direct parallel, the dragons would have been instrumental in cleansing the world in preparation for it’s reformation (unless I’m confused about that), so why would they then be “terminating” the instruments of said reformation? (EDIT: I see I probably misunderstood your implied sequence of events there, though the discrepancy in the parallel mostly holds. And my followup post pertains to reasons the terminating the Towers was a part of Abadd’s Masters’ plan premise has never seemed too likely.)

In the terms you put it, it makes a lot of sense. But again, is that the scenario suggested anywhere else? From Craymen and Gash’s dialogs, the characterization always seemed to me that the planet was on life support now, and had been since the Ancient Age? If it’s to make any sense as such, there’s perhaps some issue of timing that has not been made clear to us. But that is a variation I’d never really considered before, and I’m intrigued by the possibilities now…[/quote]

From the Divine Visitor, no wait, Gash’s mask, this has turned into a discussion of everything. Maybe the secrets of the Panzer Dragoon universe lie behind Gash’s mask. There, I’ve solved it… Gash is the Divine Visitor. That’s why Edge gasps when Gash removes his mask… it is our face that he sees!

Okay, serious time now kids.

In the Nausica? inspired theory mentioned above, the sequence of events would go something like this:

1. The Ancients war amongst themselves and almost destroy the planet in the process.
2. The warring nations decide something has to be done before mankind becomes extinct, and they collaborate on the construction of the Towers.
3. The Towers are completed and activated to start healing the world.
4. Abadd’s masters take control of the Tower network or programme Sestren to start carrying out their plan.
5. Sestren orders the dragons and drones to start killing the enemies of Abadd’s masters. The dragons fully awaken some of the Towers (three continents are burned in one night).
6. Once devastation has reached the required level, Sestren orders the dragons to terminate the fully awakened Towers that are causing the devastation. This causes dramatic climate change, resulting in the deaths of the majority of people living in the Ancient Age, and ultimately causing the Ancient Age to end.
7. Abadd’s masters go into hibernation, until the world is healed.
8. The remaining Towers begin healing the world again, preparing it for the return of the return of Abadd’s masters.
9. Over time, the remaining Towers start wearing down over time. Abadd’s masters plan went wrong somewhere, but they cannot modify it as they are “asleep”. The world continues to be ruled by these rundown Towers for 10,000 years.
10. Something (a programmed event by rebels? a virus?) activates the Heresy Program.
11. The Heresy Dragon destroys Sestren. Abadd’s masters life support system is destroyed with them.
12. The Towers are deactivated or destroyed because of Sestren’s demise. The Great Fall takes place because of this, causing the “greatest turmoil that man has ever known since the fall of the Ancient Age.” However, because the Towers weren’t fully awakened this time, the devastation isn’t so huge, and mankind has recovered by the time Panzer Dragoon Orta takes place.

Note, this theory doesn’t 100% correspond with what happens in Nausica? and there are a lot of assumptions thrown in to “fill in the gaps”. However, I do think it’s likely that there was more than one plan for the Towers - an original plan made by the “warring faction collation” and another by Abadd’s masters (who would have been part of the warring faction collation). This is, of course, assuming that they were two separate factions (maybe not!)

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]To the other points: it seems that might be the most popular assumption, that the HD was intended to “terminate” the Towers as part of the plan, but the original conditions were not met and it’s interpretation fell into conflict with Sestren’s? It is perhaps the one that I’ve seen echoed the most anyway. And while I have some recollection of reading the original discussions that arrived at that scenario, I also recall I couldn’t ultimately agree with the reasons for it. As such it has no direct literal basis, and subjectively, it’s just a very inelegant - if admittedly dramatic - way to transition from one functional state to another.

But as it relates the preceding caveats, once again… how many times are these freaking Towers supposed to get “terminated” then?[/quote]

Maybe terminating a Tower is part of its life cycle? Even the greatest structure will become worn down over time. Food for thought…

To the “the dragon was always meant to destroy the Towers” idea, I agree that there is no proof of this.

However, we do know this:

• the dragon has the ability to destroy a Tower.
• the dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminating all of the active Towers and ruins (according to Gash).
• it is likely that the heresy dragon was originally created by the scientists who created Sestren and the other dragons. If this is true, his ability to destroy Towers wouldn’t have been designed by a non-Sestren faction.

With this in mind, if the Towers were never meant to be destroyed, why would the Ancients create dragon(s) that were strong enough to destroy their own creations?

None of this is proof that Edge’s dragon was supposed to destroy the Towers as part of the Sestren grand plan. It only supports the idea that the dragon was designed to destroy the Towers. I agree we shouldn’t assume it to be true that this was the intention of the Ancients (or Sestren).

It is very near to being explicit that the Divine Visitor is the reason Lagi and his rider are such a phenomenal combat unit in Saga. The Divine Visitor is what makes it possible… and it’s something that should be impossible in the first place? So let’s drop the notion of possession, at least for the other riders, but it makes sense to me that the DV is what creates a focal point, for the psychic synchronizing of the dragon’s own ability.

Taking away the idea of possession (I don’t think the Divine Visitor was “inside” of Lundi and Keil), this looks like a plausible explanation to explain the bond between the dragon and the rider. Nice spotting with Azel’s quote.

I sometimes get the impression my ideas may seem far out because they don’t conform to those “facts” - as their status has been elevated to - and thus block any further consideration. But they are not actually fact, they are theories as any other. Though of course, if anyone wishes to challenge that, I will welcome the opportunity to try to hash it all out?

Your ideas aren’t all that far out. We have so little to go by. Any alternative ideas are welcome, and are indeed often just as likely given the lack of facts we have concerning the downfall of the Ancient Age. I hope you don’t get the impression that anyone is picking on your ideas. In my case at least, this is quite the contrary.

[The_Ancient]

Actually, it’d be nice if my ideas got picked on more, it’d be feedback.

It seems the other hard-core theorists have moved on anyway, so I really appreciate any response Solo, as long as it’s genuine interest. I should have been here a couple years earlier, but oh well, that’s my own fault…

It was perhaps a very novel view, reading nearly this whole forum in only a few days, as I did initially. As I’ve mentioned before, my interest was sharpened by wanting to find out what certain prevailing premises were based on. And it’s akin to watching a thousand years of climate change in an hour or something.

It may have been Lance Way who first defined those parameters for the Tower plan, though I’m not sure, he was certainly one of the most prolific voices in the debate. But I have a clear (if general) sense of the flow of ideas to that point, and it was similarly about making sense of the seeming contradictions of the script. So I think it may have been the first clear scenario that could resolve most of those discrepancies. And so many accepted it.

Unfortunately, the very same big disagreement which motivated me to be reading those discussions was also in conflict with that resolution. Because one of the cornerstones of the “Towers aren’t doing the job they were intended to” premise was also the assumption that the mutated monsters represent further proof of their degeneration. Which was never possible for me to believe, though I really and truly tried for a while!

That said, the probability that the Towers are rundown in some fashion is indeed literal, but in those specific terms, it is a distinct paraphrasing of the literal material. And without the supporting viewpoint on the mutated monsters as manifest proof that Sestren is unable to complete it’s dominion, it’s a conjecture no more substantiated than any other. And for the purpose I’m even bringing this up of course; no more substantiated than the conjecture I’ve been making…

Which is a good enough reason to resent my own theory on the mutated monsters, perhaps?

But OK, I’m going to keep rattling off with teh free association as long as at least one person’s still interested (even if that one person becomes only me) cause I do feel closer to the bottom of this damn rabbit hole than ever before…

As an aside, I have had extra free time this last couple weeks, but once I started thinking about PD again… every time I considered trying to get into a new (or just “pile-o-shame”) game, all I could think was “yeah, but it’s not Panzer Dragoon!” and have no interest. So instead I dug out the Saturn and started playing Azel again. It’s been about five years now and DAMN, it’s still the ‘best’ looking game I’ve ever seen. To say nothing of my overall fave soundtrack and story that’s in a completely different league from anything else. I’ll avoid the zealot term perfection… but the game is legitimately magic.

Anyhoo…

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]The second option seems more likely to me as well. I like to think that all the dragons/drones were created together by the Uru faction, although of course we have no absolute proof of this.

The Uru faction was, perhaps, a collective of scientists from different nations. I think this, because of what Craymen says:

This world was constructed by the ancient ones as a delicate balance.
The Tower, the monsters, everything is interwoven…
Long ago there was dissension among the ancient ones.
After centuries of fighting,
…the warring factions built this.

This is the only point in the game that says the Tower(s) were created by more than one faction. I actually wonder if this could be a translation error, as it (somewhat) goes against the statement directly before, that there was disagreement among the Ancients. Unless, the Towers were created by a collation of some of the Ancient nations, but not all. [/quote]

Perhaps “proof” is a little strong, but we do have a lot of inferences that Uru is the birthplace of draconian-type in general. And there’s no proof, or even any implication that I can think of, that any dragons were created anywhere else. It may also fit with the references to dragons being created in reaction to the threat against the Towers, implying that as Tower 1, and central to the coalition, Uru is where all the most critical R&D was done. And consider the implications from the Zwei World Document translation:

[Dragons] were the Ancient Ages weapons of war, a variation on the “Living Weapons”. Simply, if it is compared with the other mass produced “Living Weapons”, the Dragon lineage was a trail manufacture, so only a limited number of units were produced. Still, they were used for many purposes on the battlefield, because of its role guarding people they are inserted with consideration, their many additional functions hidden from view by their diverse forms.

A “trial manufacture” eh? This reinforces the idea dragons didn’t take very long to end the Ancient Age, and it maybe didn’t take very many of them at all. So I think it’s a reasonable assumption most dragons were created in Uru, there’s almost no reason to believe otherwise. And even if some opposing faction were trying, they likely didn’t have time to reach the development level Uru had.

A notion I’ve had about the dragons for a while now, as an outgrowth of my Tower life-force overlay hypothesis, is that the dragons were only made possible by the creation of the Towers. All evolution - be it natural or that of industry and science - builds off of uncounted preceding steps, each act of creation becomes the infrastructure for the next. In this theme, I think the Towers are what made it possible to focus so much power into a single organism. Such a goal might have seemed absurd or even insane, if it had ever been considered before, but though the Towers were seen as a necessary endeavor for other reasons, once built their power also necessarily lead to other applications?

Some weird wild stuff went down in those end-times, with overgrown lizards telling their mad scientist creators they had a message from god and such…

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]In either case, supposing the Uru faction was made up of members of different nations and this Uru faction created all the drones and dragons, it goes nicely with the fact that the different dragons encountered in the games have many similarities. The Dragon goes through many different forms, and even though he is heresy dragon, he possesses the same form as the Dark Dragon at a certain point, strongly suggesting that they were designed by the same scientists. The same is true for the two drones in Panzer Dragoon (assuming, of course, that the Sky Rider was a drone).
[/quote]

DD’s rider is definitely a drone, there’s not even a shred of implication to interfere with the portrayal of Sestren and the Towers as nothing but bio-engineered systems continuing a task they were created for. So it’s not human, which means Sky Rider isn’t either. For myself there’s hardly ever been a question there, so it’s an assumption that can’t bother me.

Everything you mentioned is among the reasons I have always agreed that the Solo Wing / Blue Dragon was most likely designed for some purpose of the orthodoxy. Along with the things I’ve brought up like the dragon crests and Azel’s powers. I even think it’s likely the DD is the Blue Dragon’s cousin, in a very direct sense, but Dark was created to defend the Towers, Blue was designed to destroy them? In the end I think we perhaps need to set a distinction between the dragon’s form and function, and it’s purpose.

On the assumption the dragon was intended to “be released” all along, the hypothesis that destroying the Towers was also an intended outcome at some point, may be the most direct and convenient way to resolve it’s apparent and even described function, with it’s explicit conflict with Sestren’s purpose. The scenario works, but I’ve realized that even I have felt a pressure to try to resolve other ideas within that context, because it’s so entrenched. But in this topic I’ve become even more enamored of some premises that must end up in direct competition with that, and so I’m challenging it more directly.

To the extent of my understanding, there is no direct evidence that the dragon was created to destroy the Towers after the Towers had completed their reformation. And so there is an obvious alternative. Is terminating Towers a part of it’s function? Sure. Was that necessarily it’s purpose? I do not believe it’s at all clear.

Solo, there is of course another connection the Blue Dragon form has to the Dark Dragon, but apparently no one else had the same impression as myself. The Anti Dragon Theory was your own impression I guess, and pertaining to the actual Anti-Wings it’s a great article, it makes a good case and I think I agree. I never noted the area backgrounds while fighting them, very intriguing and it works perfectly with my own view of Sestren. But for Sestren’s manifestation itself, I just can’t believe TA would drop such a trigger visual in there if it wasn’t an unambiguous message, that’s too cruel…

Your history of the Towers there sets a good temaplate to focus on, I’ve got some elaborations I’ll get back to.

[Solo_Wing]

A “trial manufacture” eh? This reinforces the idea dragons didn’t take very long to end the Ancient Age, and it maybe didn’t take very many of them at all. So I think it’s a reasonable assumption most dragons were created in Uru, there’s almost no reason to believe otherwise. And even if some opposing faction were trying, they likely didn’t have time to reach the development level Uru had.

I had forgotten about this. The idea that dragons were created for the battlefield, rather than simply for defence is intriguing. The wording suggests that some sort of war was happening near the end of the Ancient Age, rather than the dragons simply guarding the Towers against potential threats.

A notion I’ve had about the dragons for a while now, as an outgrowth of my Tower life-force overlay hypothesis, is that the dragons were only made possible by the creation of the Towers. All evolution - be it natural or that of industry and science - builds off of uncounted preceding steps, each act of creation becomes the infrastructure for the next. In this theme, I think the Towers are what made it possible to focus so much power into a single organism. Such a goal might have seemed absurd or even insane, if it had ever been considered before, but though the Towers were seen as a necessary endeavor for other reasons, once built their power also necessarily lead to other applications?

I think its likely that the science used in and learned from the creation of the Towers, would have utilised in the creation of the dragons. As we know from Panzer Dragoon Saga, the Towers and dragons are very much connected, a connection shared through Sestren. As Craymen put it, “This world was constructed by the ancient ones as a delicate balance. The Tower, the monsters, everything is interwoven.” I believe all the (surviving) Ancient bio-technology was designed to complement the different parts of a whole.

To the extent of my understanding, there is no direct evidence that the dragon was created to destroy the Towers after the Towers had completed their reformation. And so there is an obvious alternative. Is terminating Towers a part of it’s function? Sure. Was that necessarily it’s purpose? I do not believe it’s at all clear.

Agreed, it’s not at all clear. This gives me an idea for another topic…

Solo, there is of course another connection the Blue Dragon form has to the Dark Dragon, but apparently no one else had the same impression as myself. The Anti Dragon Theory was your own impression I guess, and pertaining to the actual Anti-Wings it’s a great article, it makes a good case and I think I agree. I never noted the area backgrounds while fighting them, very intriguing and it works perfectly with my own view of Sestren. But for Sestren’s manifestation itself, I just can’t believe TA would drop such a trigger visual in there if it wasn’t an unambiguous message, that’s too cruel…

It’s funny in way, I wrote that Anti Dragon Theory seven years ago, so it could definitely do with an overhaul. The first three theories could, actually, especially the Panzer Dragoon Saga Ending Theory.

I still stand by my idea that the anti dragon backgrounds represent the last place that the heresy dragon was in that form, but perhaps this is simply a visual representation of the dragon form, created by Sestren. According to Abadd (the character), Sestren contains the recorded history of the world, so the Anti Dragons may simply be a representation of this recording.

I’ll have to have a re-think about why the Anti Solo Wing/Sestren is the way it is.

[The_Ancient]

Considering that the anti-wings are a variation on a somewhat cliched final boss device, the fact Sestren seemingly can’t just throw the Arm Wing at you as well makes it very suggestive. I agree with that part, but then - as you even acknowledge - how and why it would then adopt the Blue Dragon form as part of the same theme is far from clear. And it is distinctly not represented as another anti-wing fight, it is the fight with Sestren.

Not that it really matters to anything else (that I know of yet), but I regard the Solo Wing Dragon as something distinct from the Armored Blue Dragon anyway. I think that may even be a reason Smilebit didn’t call it Solo Wing in Orta, though it’s also clearly supposed to be a strict homage to the original game, lacking it’s berserk and all… but certainly no other Blue Dragon could change forms?

But back to the main (tangled) topic, and I’ll use your outline as a running board:

1. The Ancients war amongst themselves and almost destroy the planet in the process.
   This seems like the only implied catalyst for the need to build the Towers. Though the references are few and indirect enough that there may be some room for the possibility the cataclysmic wars began as a result of the diminished habitat/resources as an existing state, as I’ve noted a few people view it. I don’t know if it greatly impacts on anything else either way, but yeah, we may take that as read.
2. The warring nations decide something has to be done before mankind becomes extinct, and they collaborate on the construction of the Towers.
   Again yeah, that’s the general shape of the history barring some various possible details.
3. The Towers are completed and activated to start healing the world.
   So, what are you thinking that “healing” meant at that time? Would they have started churning out the monsters (including mutated) right away, or did that only start later? I’m inclined to think the “artificial ecosystem” was being devised in some form from the outset, which may have been a big part of why they were so threatening to many people.
4. Abadd’s masters take control of the Tower network or programme Sestren to start carrying out their plan.
   I obviously agree with the consolidation of power premise, as a distinct event from the original plan for the Towers. It’s the general hypothesis I’ve made before, I’m very happy to see it echoed, as it’s also an assumption crucial to some further conjecture about the implied nature of Sestren and the Heresy Dragon. So noted.
5. Sestren orders the dragons and drones to start killing the enemies of Abadd’s masters. The dragons fully awaken some of the Towers (three continents are burned in one night).
   I am interested in this characterization, almost as if the Towers go on their own Berserker Rage and can only be stopped by termination? There is at least some support for the theme in the games, though no clear indication they couldn’t simply calm themselves down on command. But there is a direct alternative, as I already touched on: perhaps the dragons simply terminated the rogue Towers? The singular statement this is all based on is also quite general, “dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminating all of the active ruins and towers.” Read strictly literally it’s just so completely WRONG, that we have no choice but to be skeptically discerning of it’s possible context to even begin to understand it regardless.
6. Once devastation has reached the required level, Sestren orders the dragons to terminate the fully awakened Towers that are causing the devastation. This causes dramatic climate change, resulting in the deaths of the majority of people living in the Ancient Age, and ultimately causing the Ancient Age to end.
   See above, as I also think it’s possible at the end some Towers were under the control of rebel factions. In that scenario the dragons are what made the difference, since otherwise the Towers would be impregnable, and it could have become a virtual stalemate.
7. Abadd’s masters go into hibernation, until the world is healed.
   It’s clear enough those masters intended to be “revived”, presumably after a certain criteria of Sestren’s process was met. It’s Abadd’s “I was awakened too soon” quote that seems to be the entire basis for collating all other evidence into an assumption that the Towers had not completed some checkpoint, which is a good guess. But it is the further assumption that they cannot complete their task I’m taking issue with. His statement is still oddly ambiguous, even if something had not yet happened, in the context of the state of affairs he awoke to, it really seems more like too late for him. Which almost makes me wonder if he thinks whatever was supposed to have happened, could still happen?
8. The remaining Towers begin healing the world again, preparing it for the return of Abadd’s masters.
   So what sort of milestone in the process wasn’t met do you think? What is it about the current state of affairs that might be so insufficient? A lot of places seem very healthy, though some are plainly still toxic and desolated. Was it simply a matter of spreading the “artificial ecosystem” to every corner of the world, or could there be any other factors?
9. Over time, the remaining Towers start wearing down. Abadd’s masters plan went wrong somewhere, but they cannot modify it as they are “asleep”. The world continues to be ruled by these rundown Towers for 10,000 years.
   Once among those terms, I’m more inclined to think that Sestren itself is compromised, perhaps indirectly, yet by the same “impurity” that Heresy represents. Aside from my dispute with it’s grander premise, I gravitate to many of the supporting themes in the War Without End Theory. If there was a rebel hijacking of the system, it likely manifested in more ways than just the dragon. Or even if it all traces back to the DV (as one alternate example) the same could hold true. (EDIT: removed question because I found what I was looking for.)*
10. Something (a programmed event by rebels? a virus?) activates the Heresy Program.
    As above… yet I’m very torn now between my original impression that the dragon was a recessed gene in the whole system (or virus works just as well), and this newly unveiled implication that the Divine Visitor perhaps ‘created’ the heretic state of this entity. They are not entirely exclusive though, and I kinda want both options together.
11. The Heresy Dragon destroys Sestren. Abadd’s masters life support system is destroyed with them.
    I’m fully on board with that, it’s the only direct implication.
12. The Towers are deactivated or destroyed because of Sestren’s demise. The Great Fall takes place because of this, causing the “greatest turmoil that man has ever known since the fall of the Ancient Age.” However, because the Towers weren’t fully awakened this time, the devastation isn’t so huge, and mankind has recovered by the time Panzer Dragoon Orta takes place.
    In large part the Towers weren’t awakened at all, which perhaps connects back to your other premise that they were awakened then terminated in the Ancient Age… but then awakened again? What if the first ancient “fall” was caused as much because the Towers all got shut down at once, and the shock of the processes holding the world together collapsing may have been the greater turmoil? If so, then the Towers could have begun a more long term and subtle process stitching things back together…

Anyway, the Tower hunter in my brain needs to rest again… I’ll start in with some more structured theorizing next time.

*For some reason I thought it was a dialogue, but it’s in Zadoc’s Tower Report:

But over the years, the Towers,
have worn down. They are not
functioning efficiently. The
regeneration process that began
in the Ancient Age has
still not been completed.

4/4

However, if the Towers return to
normal, the number of humans
would have to be severely reduced,
or we will have to live in a
much harsher environment, where
the fruits of the land would not
regenerate.

The second paragraph is a little confusing as well, why would it be one OR the other of those options then?

[Solo_Wing]

So, what are you thinking that “healing” meant at that time? Would they have started churning out the monsters (including mutated) right away, or did that only start later? I’m inclined to think the “artificial ecosystem” was being devised in some form from the outset, which may have been a big part of why they were so threatening to many people.

The Ancients may have had a similar idea to Craymen “someone or something must take control of everything, or we will continue to destroy ourselves.” However, this “something” may have been the union of different nations… the leaders of these nations specifically.

So yes, I’d say that the artificial ecosystem" was probably on their minds at this point. There would have been much debate amongst them about if this should be done, and how it should be done. How much control would they need to have over the world? I think this is where Abadd’s masters would come in. Perhaps they were more vocal towards the idea of controlling things like the population, with monsters as caretakers etc.

I am interested in this characterization, almost as if the Towers go on their own Berserker Rage and can only be stopped by termination? There is at least some support for the theme in the games, though no clear indication they couldn’t simply calm themselves down on command. But there is a direct alternative, as I already touched on: perhaps the dragons simply terminated the rogue Towers? The singular statement this is all based on is also quite general, “dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminating all of the active ruins and towers.” Read strictly literally it’s just so completely WRONG, that we have no choice but to be skeptically discerning of it’s possible context to even begin to understand it regardless.

Perhaps termination, in this instance, does not actually mean the destruction of the Towers, but their deactivation… a translation error perhaps? The statement is so ambiguous it can’t be taken in a single context (or strictly literally as you said).

My idea was that the Ancients killed off their enemies in two steps. First they activated the Towers which went on a rampage and destroyed many enemy settlements, then they sent the dragons to destroy a bunch of Towers so that the environment would change completely and kill off most of the remaining population.

See above, as I also think it’s possible at the end some Towers were under the control of rebel factions. In that scenario the dragons are what made the difference, since otherwise the Towers would be impregnable, and it could have become a virtual stalemate.

Interesting possibility… perhaps these rebels were another one of the warring factions who didn’t agree with Abadd’s masters. So, they could technically have been part of the union who built the Towers, and indeed could have controlled some of them from the start. But ultimately they didn’t agree with Abadd’s masters use of the Towers, so a war broke out between the two sides. Tower vs tower?

It’s clear enough those masters intended to be “revived”, presumably after a certain criteria of Sestren’s process was met. It’s Abadd’s “I was awakened too soon” quote that seems to be the entire basis for collating all other evidence into an assumption that the Towers had not completed some checkpoint, which is a good guess. But it is the further assumption that they cannot complete their task I’m taking issue with. His statement is still oddly ambiguous, even if something had not yet happened, in the context of the state of affairs he awoke to, it really seems more like too late for him. Which almost makes me wonder if he thinks whatever was supposed to have happened, could still happen?

Actually, I wasn’t thinking of Abadd’s quote. Refresh my memory, when does he say that he was awakened too soon?

The quote I was thinking of comes from the third Tower Report.

“But over the years, the Towers,
have worn down. They are not
functioning efficiently. The
regeneration process that began
in the Ancient Age has
still not been completed.”

If the rebels did indeed control some of the Ancient Towers, perhaps their destruction in the Ancient Age meant that there wasn’t enough “Tower power” to complete the regeneration process.

So what sort of milestone in the process wasn’t met do you think? What is it about the current state of affairs that might be so insufficient? A lot of places seem very healthy, though some are plainly still toxic and desolated. Was it simply a matter of spreading the “artificial ecosystem” to every corner of the world, or could there be any other factors?

In Nausicaa, The Sea of Corruption was steadily expanding, swallowing up towns and villages in it’s path. Perhaps the Tower’s artificial ecosystem was designed to do the same. We’ve seen from Juba’s town in Uru, that the Tower could drown whole towns, yet these are the places we’d consider ‘healthy’, at a first glance anyway.

I’d say the milestone would be to complete the “regeneration process that began in the Ancient Age” that Zadoc mentioned in his report (see above). This could be the whole world, or a portion of the world.

Once among those terms, I’m more inclined to think that Sestren itself is compromised, perhaps indirectly, yet by the same “impurity” that Heresy represents. Aside from my dispute with it’s grander premise, I gravitate to many of the supporting themes in the War Without End Theory. If there was a rebel hijacking of the system, it likely manifested in more ways than just the dragon. Or even if it all traces back to the DV (as one alternate example) the same could hold true. (EDIT: removed question because I found what I was looking for.)*

I’m going to have to disagree here (for now), because of the information about the Towers wearing down in the Tower report. However, I need to read your theory and Robert Frazer’s again in order to get a better understanding of where you’re coming from.

I’m fully on board with that, it’s the only direct implication.

I was just thinking… another reason why Abadd’s masters couldn’t be revived might be because the Towers took too long to complete the regeneration process. He says “It is too late for my Ancient masters” after all. Too late as in too long?

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]However, if the Towers return to
normal, the number of humans
would have to be severely reduced,
or we will have to live in a
much harsher environment, where
the fruits of the land would not
regenerate.

The second paragraph is a little confusing as well, why would it be one OR the other of those options then?[/quote]

Indeed, that is rather confusing! It implies that there is more than one normal state. Presumably in the first case, the Towers would unleash some form of attack that would either kill a lot of humans in order to balance the environment. In the second case, the Towers would destroy/change much of the environment in order to make it harder for humans to survive (the fruits of the land would not regenerate). In either case, it would make things harder for humans, but it almost suggests that Sestren would have to make a calculated choice. A choice that would determine the best way to bring balance to the artificial environment. Take away the humans or take away their resources?