Whats behind Gash?s mask?

Yes, except that we don’t have any evidence that the Sky Rider is experienced in the art of button pressing.

I was totally pressing all the right buttons for the dragon. :wink:

I like to think that the ancient records mentioning the Divine Visitor were some sort of prophecy. At least I’m not totally satisfied with Solo’s possibility #2.

I do think they may have been keeping the door open for a prequel though.

It’s certainly possible that the Divine Visitor never appeared in the Ancient Age and was simply a prophecy. It’s made out clearly enough that the Divine Visitor is the player, but the question is - what else is the Divine Visitor? From a historical perspective (if you treat the Panzer history as if it was a real one), the records had to have been written for a specific reason. The Ancients had knowledge of the Divine Visitor. So perhaps the question should be, how did they obtain this knowledge?

It makes the question of who the Ancients were even more of a mystery.

Good to see one of my topics brought some life to the forum :anjou_happy:

What’s wrong with involving the player in a prophecy? It’s silly enough to break the 4th wall in this way, just because we have records doesn’t mean it’s anything more than that. It could just be a small jab. The Ancients are the creators of the world, so they’re the game’s developers, and that is how they know of the divine visitor, the player, that would come to free them. It’s what the whole thing was made for! Alternatively, they know because the developers wanted them to know to better break the 4th wall when they reveal that the divine visitor is you, and make you feel more important. It’s not like prophecies of any sort can be explained in a rational manner. To me, it’s just the player.

Depends on the world - for example, in the Harry Potter stories, having a prophecy in the story makes sense, because magic is considered a rational explanation within the “rules” of that particular fictional world. In Panzer Dragoon’s case, any prophecy that turns out to be true (as was the case with the Divine Visitor) would need to be explained using the rules of the world.

If the prophecy/ancient records were simply something that the developers put there with no in-world explanation that is like saying the Sky Rider doesn’t have an identity because the developers never thought one up or always intended his identity to remain a mystery. In the Sky Rider’s case, this may actually be the case, but to the people of the Panzer Dragoon world, their has to be an explanation to who his identity is. There has to be more to the history of the Panzer world than what we were presented with and what the developers thought up, otherwise any mystery in the series could be explained away as something the developers either didn’t consider or purposely left hidden so therefore there is no explanation.

The problem is, if the Ancients were meant to be the developers, we still have to justify everything else that the Ancients have done and explain it in relation to what the people of the Panzer Dragoon world have experienced. Who were the Ancient rebels, for example? The theory poses a lot of questions. I’d prefer to think of the Ancients as the ancestors of the people of Panzer Dragoon, which is what all evidence points towards, rather than some out of game explanation.

Although I suppose you could explain Abadd’s masters not being able to be revived in Orta as being caused by Team Andromeda disbanding. :wink:

If they never thought of an explanation like that, then no, it doesn’t “have” to be explained in such a way. It’s just there. Plot device.

You could apply that to any plot device/element though - the Sky Rider, the Ancient rebels, Abadd’s masters etc. Are we to say that all of these mystery characters cannot have identities (to the people of the Panzer Dragoon world) because the developers never thought their identities up? Or are we to assume that these characters do have identities, but they simply haven’t been shown to us? It’s the same situation with the Divine Visitor’s back story. I don’t think that these identities should necessarily ever be revealed (that would take away much of the mystery), but for the story to make sense, they have to have identities to the people of Panzer Dragoon world.

Didn’t say that. Regardless of the backstory, it makes no sense. The divine visitor is “the player” and no matter how deep you may want to dig to find references to prophecies and anything else, it’s still just the player and therefor it makes no sense with that world’s “rules” which are the rules that demand an explanation they can’t have.

Plot device.

I think I agree with Al3xand3r here, because I don’t recall any references to the Divine Visitor as being a presence in the ancient age. It’s always more as legend or prophecy. That said, I don’t think you can quite have it both ways… if we label it as a plot device, then you have to divorce this technicality of whether it’s only the player or not from the context. That’s more of a game device, and basically irrelevant to the plot.

If we are the DV in Saga, then we can also be a Divine Visitor to every other game… meaning we can basically claim anything that we want in that regard. So in other words, if it’s a plot device then we may still expect it to mean something in the plot Al3x.

This is my train of thought as well, although I probably didn’t make that particularly clear. I’d consider the Divine Visitor to be more of a prophecy to a legend though, since the existance of Divine Visitor was confirmed at the end of the game (as opposed to simply being the result of Ancient/Seeker superstition). The main two (only?) people who mention the Divine Visitor are Gash and Zadoc, who both don’t state what the Ancient records say, but merely confirm that their were records of some kind.

To recap, first Gash mentions that his mission is to find the Divine Visitor, a figure mentioned in some ancient records:

Gash: I’m searching for… someone…
known only as the Divine Visitor.
That’s how it’s written in the ancient records anyway.
Edge: Divine Visitor?
Gash: Sorry, but that’s all I can say…

Then he falsely concludes that Divine Visitor is the dragon:

Gash: The dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminating all of the active ruins and towers.
Gash: The ‘Divine Visitor’… is the dragon itself!

And Zadoc explains the limited knowledge of the Divine Visitor that the Seekers possess, most likely obtained from the Ancient records that Gash had read:

About the ‘Divine Visitor’

{Zadoc} We knew something would appear
{Zadoc} to free us from the Tower’s will.
{Zadoc} It wasn’t until recently that we
{Zadoc} discovered what would save us.
{Zadoc} Your dragon is our salvation.

Sestren also refers to the Divine Visitor before you fight him, however I believe this is a translation error as he does not mention the Divine Visitor in Kimimi’s translation of this passage.

The Divine Visitor is finally referenced by the dragon himself, who acknowledges the existence of the Divine Visitor:

Dragon: The will of the ancients… It is now with me…
The Divine Visitor must destroy me.
…That is why I have returned.
Edge: Aren’t you the Divine Visitor?
Dragon: I am not…
Dragon: I exist to lead the Divine Visitor,
to break the spell of the Ancient Age,
and to give humans control of their own destiny.
The only one who can free us is the one from the outside world.
Dragon: ‘(Your name)’… You are the Divine Visitor.
Now, Divine One, the voyage that began,
when I tried to return the world into the hands of the people…
The duty that spanned
thousands of years, is about to come to an end.
Now… press the button,
…the soul who dwells inside Edge, ‘(Your name)’…
For a new beginning.

As we can see, the Divine Visitor is known of by several characters in the world (Gash, Zadoc, and the dragon). In the first two cases, the characters are merely basing the existence of the Divine Visitor on records written/created by somebody else. However, the dragon is much more aware of the identity of the Divine Visitor, as if his/her existence or role proceeded the events of Panzer Dragoon Saga (or was at least foretold). This confirms that the Divine Visitor’s role was known by the Ancients who believed (or convinced the Seekers to believe) that the Divine Visitor would be the one to save them. The questions I have are (1) how did the Ancients obtain this information and (2) why did they believe that the Divine Visitor would save them?

The answer is plot device :stuck_out_tongue:

The devs wanted to break the 4th wall and make you feel important. They do this by making you the subject of all those prophecies and what not in this manner. You were destined to play this game. You’re the man. Not Edge. Not the dragon. You.

There can be no rational Panzerish explanation to how they knew about you, imo.

OK Solo, the character of your opposition wasn’t entirely clear to me anyway but yeah… I was in part reacting to the idea of the DV being “the same” as the ancient age DV. As in, I may not consider it “from” the ancient age in that sense. But if, by contrast, we’re expecting it to be a little more than cliched mystic augury - to your questions:

Report regarding the Light Wing. We have at last succeeded in developing the ultimate form of the dragon. But it is more than a dragon. It is a being far different… Something… perhaps even superior to ourselves… A messenger of the Gods.

1- In general I don’t think it matters, but I vaguely enjoy the idea this has all come through the dragon, somehow…

2- Once again, any answer first depends on which “they”… that they are.

The rough scenario that seems suggested to me, is that some of the Ancients who were opposed to the totalitarian Tower takeover, and also set the Heresy Dragon in motion somehow, had reason to believe in this ringer should the situation require it. But that doesn’t mean they had the Divine Visitor precisely quantified.

I don’t think that Light Wing quote has anything to do with the divine visitor?

What’s with this narrow literalism Al3xand3r? Of course it’s just a fun way to break the fourth wall, but the fact remains, the prophecy is a part of the story, and therefore already has some Panzerish rationale. I don’t think that quote has something to do with the DV, but it could relate to the issue, there’s no way of knowing for sure anyway.

As always with PD, the details are sparse, and we have to scrounge for clues to any hypothesis. There’s nothing unusual happening here… if you don’t personally care to consider this topic, then you don’t have to. I think you’ve sufficiently registered your disdain now. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m just saying what I believe is the case and that contrary evidence presented isn’t enough… for me. Just as it appears enough for you guys. I guess I’d feel less inclined to reply with the “opposing” side if it was marked in a theory thread or something like that, as opposed to a response to someone asking what exactly is up with that stuff.

But you’re the one who gave the strict constructionist answer that the person who was asking what’s up with this stuff wasn’t happy with anyway. :wink:

I don’t think any of this has been represented as “exactly” what the Divine Visitor is. Except… I guess your view may be very exacting Al3xand3r, a little too much so for some of us.

Perhaps, but it doesn’t need additional theories to support it…

Well, I guess my only excuse is that, sometimes I forget you’re the self appointed dictator of topic structure and propriety. :anjou_sigh: