What triggered the Heresy dragon's activation?

Panzer Dragoon
1

Since “Sestren was always meant to create the dragon”, what was the trigger? We already ruled out the Heresy dragon being some kind of fail-safe – activated if the ancients ever lost control of their Towers, so what does that leave us with?

Being activated after a certain duration of time had lapsed (in this case 10 000 years) seems like the only logical trigger in my mind. However, if the “people” who worked towards destroying the Towers could somehow activate the Heresy dragon, why not do it sooner? Why wait?

What if the trigger for the Heresy dragon’s activation was in fact the death of the ancient ones who went into hibernation? After all, if they couldn’t return to the world why allow the Towers to create a paradise they will never live to see? Sestren, therefore, would’ve been literally obeying nothing more than the will of the ancients after the Heresy dragon awoke to fulfill its own purpose. Why? Well, because Sestren knew no other purpose.

Another relevant event that can shed light on this affair is the Tower in Panzer Dragoon. As we know, a mysterious voice activates two separate units:

“Unit 01, activated. Unit 02, activated. Commence final programme sequence”.

If these units were dragon units similar to or exactly the same as the ones referred to in Panzer Dragoon Orta’s Pandora’s Box, then this could be all the proof we need to support the theory that Sestren itself was the one who activated the Heresy dragon. Yes, I know: the Heresy dragon entered the world long before the events of Panzer Dragoon took place, so by my reasoning the Tower was merely confirming the activation of two units.

However, if the voice of the Tower, or the Tower itself was activating two dragon units, including the Dark Dragon, then another issue arises: how could both Sestren (in a memory orb) and the Tower activate the Dark Dragon, if the voice heard coming from the Tower wasn’t the voice of Sestren? They couldn’t both activate the dragon. Also bear in mind that some outside force is telling the Tower what to do (“Commence final programme sequence…”, “…initiate operations and secure the area…”).

Also, I think the designation D-Type 01, or Prototype dragon was Sestren’s designation for the Dark Dragon’s final form.

Thoughts?

Personally, I think the Heresy dragon was either a rogue guardian dragon, or a rebellious dragon someone programmed Sestren to create.

2

I can’t believe the Ancients would have simply programmed Sestren to release the Heresy Dragon after a certain amount of time. The trigger must have been based on a set of conditions. The Heresy Dragon was probably supposed to be released after the Towers had completed their objective. The question is why the Heresy Dragon was released before the Towers had finished their work.

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]Another relevant event that can shed light on this affair is the Tower in Panzer Dragoon. As we know, a mysterious voice activates two separate units:

“Unit 01, activated. Unit 02, activated. Commence final programme sequence”.

If these units were dragon units similar to or exactly the same as the ones referred to in Panzer Dragoon Orta’s Pandora’s Box, then this could be all the proof we need to support the theory that Sestren itself was the one who activated the Heresy dragon. Yes, I know: the Heresy dragon entered the world long before the events of Panzer Dragoon took place, so by my reasoning the Tower was merely confirming the activation of two units.

However, if the voice of the Tower, or the Tower itself was activating two dragon units, including the Dark Dragon, then another issue arises: how could both Sestren (in a memory orb) and the Tower activate the Dark Dragon, if the voice heard coming from the Tower wasn’t the voice of Sestren? They couldn’t both activate the dragon. Also bear in mind that some outside force is telling the Tower what to do (“Commence final programme sequence…”, “…initiate operations and secure the area…”).

Also, I think the designation D-Type 01, or Prototype dragon was Sestren’s designation for the Dark Dragon’s final form.[/quote]

I agree on the Tower simply commenting on the activation of the units. When it monitored the activation of Unit 01 and 02, it activated its final program. However, why would the Tower react to the activation of the Heresy Dragon? I can’t see how Unit 01 and Unit 02 could have been anything else than the Dark Dragon (Unit 02) and its rider (Unit 01, perhaps even D-Type 01).

I believe the second theory is closer to the truth.

3

[quote=“D-Unit”]
I agree on the Tower simply commenting on the activation of the units. When it monitored the activation of Unit 01 and 02, it activated its final program. However, why would the Tower react to the activation of the Heresy Dragon? I can’t see how Unit 01 and Unit 02 could have been anything else than the Dark Dragon (Unit 02) and its rider (Unit 01, perhaps even D-Type 01). [/quote]

I’m afraid I’m not making much sense here so let me explain the events this way:

  • Tower is waiting for input.
  • Unit 01 and 02 are activated.
  • Tower acknowledges their activation and initiates final program.
  • Tower waits for input from Unit 01 to and verifies this input by comparing it to its predefined program. For example this happens before the Tower secures the perimeter.
  • Tower brings unit to full strength, but I doubt this was the only thing it had to do. The real objective may never have been completed.
4

I personally cannot bring myself to believe that the ancients actually programmed the Heresy dragon to destroy the Towers even if their collective task was incomplete. The Heresy dragon himself said its duty was to free mankind from the will of the ancients, which can only mean it rebelled against their will.

We’d need to know exactly what was said in the Japanese version of the game word for word before drawing an accurate conclusion. However, I absolutely refuse to discount the English translation because I won’t believe everything (and I mean every last thing) we’ve learnt over the years was a lie.

I do believe the Tower outside of the Imperial capital was confirming the activation of two units rather than activating them. If Unit 01 was the Dark Dragon and its drone rider considered as a unit, then I’m open to the possibility that the other unit (Unit 02) was another dragon unit (as described in Panzer Dragoon Orta). These dragons were built around a specific purpose (in the Heresy dragon’s case destroying the Towers) or a specific rider (such as the Sky Rider).

If you think about it, the Heresy dragon didn’t pursue his goals relentlessly. It only appeared when a Tower’s activation was imminent as if it wanted to protect humanity. That was its true purpose in my mind.

5

That’s exactly what is so confusing. We don’t know why the Heresy Dragon only appeared after 10.000 years, but that’s not all. The PD 1 Tower was simply waiting for Unit 01’s instructions. Why didn’t the Dark Dragon appear sooner? What was it waiting for? I doubt the Heresy Dragon had anything to do with it or the Dark Dragon would have been released earlier.

6

I think Sestren sent the Dark Dragon to stop the Empire from learning its secrets. By then humanity had grown in numbers that were begging to be “reduced”, so activating the Tower would be the solution to all of Sestren’s immediate problems. Then the Heresy dragon showed up to stop the Dark Dragon from reaching the Tower (“Don’t let him go back to the Tower… My dragon knows the way…”) at which point the Dark Dragon’s role of defending the Tower became all the more urgent.

As a guardian dragon perhaps it didn’t need to be released sooner. I can’t really say for sure.

The death of the ancients who (or whose host bodies) were hibernating would be a good trigger for the Heresy dragon’s activation, but I believe Sestren Exsis guarded them. I wonder if 10 000 years was the trigger…

7

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]I think Sestren sent the Dark Dragon to stop the Empire from learning its secrets. By then humanity had grown in numbers that were begging to be “reduced”, so activating the Tower would be the solution to all of Sestren’s immediate problems. Then the Heresy dragon showed up to stop the Dark Dragon from reaching the Tower (“Don’t let him go back to the Tower… My dragon knows the way…”) at which point the Dark Dragon’s role of defending the Tower became all the more urgent.

As a guardian dragon perhaps it didn’t need to be released sooner. I can’t really say for sure.[/quote]

The problem is that the Tower said it was “the final program sequence”. I think it really was activating the final process in the regeneration of the planet. But could it be coincidence the Tower was discovered by the Empire shortly before its activation…I honestly don’t know. We have to find out why the Towers weren’t activated earlier. Something must have gone wrong.

I can’t believe they would make that kind of mistake.

8

I think the Tower was just partially active and was why the Empire could detect it. The Towers were all dormant rather than dead during the time the games are set and the deactivation of these dormant Towers led to climate changes that suggest the Towers, even though dormant, were still keeping the environment from collapsing.

9

Come agehn?!

Were is that info from?

Sestren dind’t create the dragon, humans did…

10

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]

Come agehn?!

Were is that info from?

Sestren dind’t create the dragon, humans did…[/quote]

That’s something Abadd wrote a long time ago. He also wrote that the ancients weren’t perfect, otherwise they’d still be here. The question is: should we believe a word he says!

11

Here’s a point that’s kind of relevant to these theories, but which I don’t think anyone’s brought up before. We often seem to assume that the Heresy Program was created to, intended to (or reprogrammed to) shut down the Tower network by the Ancients (or by their rebellious foes). I actually believe that we can more or less discount these kinds of ideas though, providing that the translation of PDS is at least generally accurate. I’ll explain why:

The Divine Visitor isn’t the easiest part of the PD universe to fit into the story, but I for one might have been overlooking its significance in this. Quite simply, it isn’t the Heresy Program that shuts down the Tower network: it’s the Heresy Program and the Divine Visitor.

During its final lines from PDS, the Heresy Program states that for the Tower network to be shut down:

The Divine Visitor must destroy me.

“Destroy” or “deactivate” would both make equal amounts of sense in this case, because the really important point seems to be that:

The only one who can free us
is the one from the outside world.

Now this seems genuinely significant. The Heresy Program may have been able to install itself in the place of the old Sestren AI, but the world’s ultimate salvation could only come if the Divine Visitor destroyed the Heresy Program following this event (and the Heresy Program presumably could not self-destruct). Thus the Heresy Program’s ultimate goal could only be fulfilled with the cooperation of the player: the destruction of the Tower network depended equally on these two entities, on the Heresy Program and the player.

So of course that brings the question to light: if the Heresy Program could only shut the Tower network down with the aid of the player, and if the player had nothing to do with the Ancient ones and if the player’s arrival was only going to occur a ridiculous length of time into the future, how could the Heresy Program have been created to fulfill this mission which could only be completed with the cooperation of the player?

I thought the logical answer must be that it was not: that the Heresy Program must genuinely have been acting under its own motivation during the course of the Saturn games. So even though the Heresy Program was a part of the Sestren system that was created by the Ancients, it wouldn’t seem to make sense if its final “purpose” was given to it by either the Ancients or their enemies: the descision to take down the Tower network with the aid of the player must have been something that it decided to do of its own volition. Essentially, by guiding the player into the heart of Sestren so as to take the Tower network offline, the Heresy Program must have been seizing an opportunity that its creators couldn’t logically have planned for.

Thoughts?

12

I find it difficult to believe the Heresy Dragon decided for itself to save the human race. The Heresy Dragon clearly states it had a duty:

“The **duty **that spanned thousands of years, is about to come to an end…”

It would be a bit strange if he gave himself this duty. Like the Heresy Dragon, the Divine Visitor was always part of the plan.

13

i kinda got the feeling that the entire war between the heresy program and sestren exis came from a two different interpretations of the will of the ancients. not that this is exactly how it is, but something similar maybe:

lets assume the ancients were humans and all of their creations were supposed to serve them. then they almost killed eachother with war and fell into a state of disarray. sestren exis deemed humanity unfit to hold their position and classified them as animals. the heresy program was still loyal to them and felt that regardless of what state the humans are in, we (the creations) are only here to serve them.

so it was kind of a split between a presumptuous program that did not view humans as it’s master anymore, and a single loyal program that had formerly governed ancient dragon creation.

so then came the issue that humans did not want the towers controlling them anymore, they did not want anymore monsters to kill them, they wanted to be free. the heresy program supported them in that but sestren exis did not. so the heresy was ejected from the sestren for “heresy against the ancients” and the rest is history.

sestren got pwned!

14

I suspect that the statement “The duty that spanned thousands of years, is about to come to an end…” isn’t referring to any specific duty given to the Heresy Program by the Ancients. Elsewhere the Heresy Program is literally accused of ignoring its original duty and defying its ancient creators, so it would seem that this other “duty” of destroying the Towers is more likely to be a self-decided one.

But how could the player realistically have been a part of the Ancient’s masterplan? From all the information that we can gather I don’t think that it would logically make sense. I’m not saying it’s completely impossible, but I honestly don’t think that it’s likely to be the case.

15

I’ve had similar thoughts, although it seems we can be reasonably sure that Sestren’s interpretation of the Ancients’ wishes was the “accurate” one. It would make sense if the Heresy Program decided to take down the Tower network because at some stage it re-evaluated its original purpose though: if, for whatever reason, it came to the conclusion that it would be a good idea for humankind to be free. Sestren did classify the Heresy Program as a “bug”, after all. “Bug” would imply that the Heresy Program was a part of the system that simply wasn’t acting as it should have been.

16

yeah, if you’re just going to believe everything sestren tells you :wink:

it could be the one that is malfunctioning but because it has control over the entire world, it gets to decide what is right and wrong.

off topic: i just noticed something disturbing while going through the encyclopedia in PDO; it makes a mention to lake “Ul”. are they implying that Uru was engrish and that the actual name is Ul? I am more prone to believe that Ul is a bad translation because Uru is in the language of PD and thus the R <-> L issue is not valid. and Uru sounds better. :slight_smile:

17

[quote=“Lance”]

I suspect that the statement “The duty that spanned thousands of years, is about to come to an end…” isn’t referring to any specific duty given to the Heresy Program by the Ancients. Elsewhere the Heresy Program is literally accused of ignoring its original duty and defying its ancient creators, so it would seem that this other “duty” of destroying the Towers is more likely to be a self-decided one.[/quote]

But by calling it a duty, it seems more like it was a task which he got from someone else, not something he choose from free will.

[quote=“Lance”]

But how could the player realistically have been a part of the Ancient’s masterplan? From all the information that we can gather I don’t think that it would logically make sense. I’m not saying it’s completely impossible, but I honestly don’t think that it’s likely to be the case.[/quote]

The Seekers were searching for the Divine Visitor, so his arrival was planned. But if he is the player, it doesn’t make sense does it? I really wonder if the Divine Visitor was always the player. I already posted my theory about the Impurity (Sky Rider) being the original Divine Visitor, only to be replaced by the player in PD Saga. That way, the Divine Visitor could have been planned (a rebel Ancient residing in Sestren), and still be the player in a later stadium.

18

Yeah, I noticed that too; it must be an accidentally different translation, as all other names from PDS that appear in PDO are spelled the same. I’m fine with continuing to call it “Uru” though: “Uru” has appeared in the text of the games countless times, whereas “Ul” only appears that once.

19

I’ve often wondered if the Heresy Dragons were mindless creatures simply with programming that runs counter to the will of the Ancients or if they’ve somehow inherited free will and things like a sense of justice. There’s no doubt that the ancient rebels created the Heresy Program. But it seems to me that all the Heresy Dragons were creatures far different than the dragons under the control of Sestren. They look different and there’s a certain peacefullness and kindness and their eyes. Maybe they’re not dragons at all? Certainly the original Lagi started life as a humble baby Coolia. What about the rest?

20

Heresy’s mission was clearly to end the Will of the Ancients.

But what is TWOTA?Is it literally Sestren?Or Sestren 's guidelines…