Was the heresy dragon part of the Ancients plan?

Panzer Dragoon
1

Just exploring another possibility here, thinking outside the box.

What if everything that happened in the Panzer trilogy was the plan of a select group of the Ancients? Sestren, the Towers, the heresy dragon, Azel, the destruction of the Towers, all of it. Even the end of the Ancient Age. These entities and events seem somewhat seperate, yet the different entities involved could have been given unique purposes and missions deliberately by the same force.

Take for example Azel. We know that Azel was stolen, but we have no proof that she was given a new purpose by the rebels. What if she was designed to assist the heresy dragon, who in turn was actually part of the will of the Ancients. A dragon intended to free the world from the will of the Ancients after a certain period of time, set by the Ancients themselves.

Indeed, it is always assumed that Sestren was the ultimate controller of the “delicate balance” that the Ancients created. But what if the dragon was another part of this balance too, yet Sestren - being only programmed to protect the Towers - considered the heresy dragon to be a rebel. Yet, this too may have been part of the plan; the Ancients may have known that Sestren would ultimately have to be “ended” by the dragon, once the task of the Towers/Sestren was complete. If this was the case, Sestren would have been created with a set lifespan in mind.

Perhaps the Ancients did plan to return, once the Towers had achieved their goal and the dragon had terminated them. However, by the time Abadd tried to revive them, their hibernation chambers had ultimately failed due to a malfunction (perhaps caused in an accident during the end of the Ancient Age or the Great Fall).

I admit there are a number of weaknesses in this theory, but lets discuss why this could or couldn’t be the case. Could the “heresy” dragon have been part of the Ancient plan all along?

2

They sure liked making things complicated.

Instead of setting towers to a timer they made a dragon for an off switch?!

:stuck_out_tongue:

3

Supposing, the Ancients didn’t know exactly when the Towers would be ready to be destroyed, they’d need another (intelligent) entity to determine when the time was right.

I guess what I’m getting at, is that Sestren and the dragon could have been two variables in the system, designed on purpose to maintain a balance. The balance was partially maintained by the two forces opposing one another.

4

I was just being silly, though with their technology, they could simply have the towers turn themselves off, as opposed to require an “off switch” dragon like Lagi to take over. Whether they would turn themselves off by a certain timer, or because they could observe and understand when their task is complete is just up to implementation. I mean, if Lagi could wake up and do this task based on some sort of feedback he received, why couldn’t the towers simply get the same feedback and shut themselves?

Then again, I suppose we wouldn’t have a game/plot if they had been rational.

5

Well, I’ve been looking at some of these elements already, like the implications of Azel’s design, as you know Solo. But then the dragon was supposed to do this as part of the plan angle is running the opposite direction from the rest of what I’ve been dwelling on. But I’ll try to keep that discussion separate…

That’s vaguely in line with the loose theory I arrived at in my old Zoah topic. Though perhaps without the assumption the dragon was supposed to destroy all the Towers. On that subject, I just stumbled across an unassuming little scrap while looking for something else:

{Zadoc:}
It is also written that
your dragon has
the ability to destroy the Towers.
That’s why we’ve been watching you
since you found the dragon.
The Towers are located
throughout this world.
To destroy them all,
it would take centuries.

If we were to accept Zadoc’s assertion there - and it actually seems kinda reasonable in light of the recovery time Lagi perhaps needed between his forays - then it certainly belies any scenario that the dragon (singularly) was intended to terminate all the Towers directly. Yet it serves to indirectly support the possibility it was intended to confront Sestren directly?

So I think there’s a lot of room for exploring this at least. And in general I’m always inclined to dig for any possible hints about the relationship between Sestren and the Heresy Dragon, they have shared some very important story, I believe that was made clear enough. It’s ironic for me that you brought this up in these terms now though, because I’ve only just had a minor epiphany about some of these concerns.

I realized my perspective was always hung up on an assumption that the time frame for any of these referenced events is roughly parallel. So while part of me wants to believe Azel was intended to support the Heresy Dragon (it was one of my earliest impressions), lately I’ve been weighing implications she could have been developed decades before that time frame, for all we really know. Which isn’t necessarily against this larger hypothesis, but in that case her original purpose could have somehow paralleled the Heresy Dragon’s. Or perhaps even Sestren’s.

6

I agree, the idea isn’t very logical. Perhaps some other factors of the plan didn’t work, and the Heresy program was the Ancient’s backup plan. If something went wrong with Sestren, for example. The two entities are very much alike in appearance.

The dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminated all of the active Towers and ruins.

Perhaps history repeated itself here. When the heresy dragon defeated Sestren, the will of the Ancients was “now with him”. This could mean that the Heresy program became like a new Sestren, essentially taking control of all the Towers and dragons.

So, perhaps the Heresy program ordered the other dragons to destroy the remaining Towers? History repeating itself, but with a different entity in command?

It’s interesting how the dragon says “the will of the Ancients is now with me”… it’s almost as if the will of the Ancients is something that can be passed around between entities, like a set of responsibilities.

7

A thought from a few days ago, and mulled a few times since, has become a deafening alarm at this juncture…

Zadoc - “It is also written that your dragon has the ability to destroy the Towers.”

Gash - “The dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminating all of the active ruins and towers.”

I now believe it is imperative we accept these terms are not interchangeable, for the implied usage of the pertaining quotes. I’m certain the “terminating” in question is closer to a connotation of deactivating or ending current state, than actual destruction.

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]The dragons ended the Ancient Age by terminated all of the active Towers and ruins.

Perhaps history repeated itself here. When the heresy dragon defeated Sestren, the will of the Ancients was “now with him”. This could mean that the Heresy program became like a new Sestren, essentially taking control of all the Towers and dragons.

So, perhaps the Heresy program ordered the other dragons to destroy the remaining Towers? History repeating itself, but with a different entity in command? [/quote]

It’s a curious idea, and there’s some implied elements that I may really want to look for, since the history repeating itself angle seems very promising to me right now. But I’d need at least some other possible corroboration before seriously trying to work multiple dragons into the Sestren-Function-Stop incident. So, as per my leader point there:

I seriously don’t think we even need to be trying to correlate these two characterizations with one another. Since (as I stressed in the other topic) dragons very clearly did not “destroy” so many of these ruins and Towers… then that was not ever the real implication. They terminated their function of that time.

Which again only serves to streamline the generalized hypothesis you’re making anyway, if I’m interpreting it right Solo?

The remains of the Ancient Age ruins,
Everything, is now with me…

It was very concerning to me from the first moment I saw %between%Kimimi’s Translation of the Azel ending, it’s very hard to glean the same charged flavor of the Ancients’ talons of control from it. However:

Whatever strength we can lend to our friend, we must help him carry out his goal.
That is, to free the world from the Will of the Ancient Age,
you must raise yourself higher and drive off the shadow of death.

The phrasing is at least preserved in her translation of %between%Lundi’s Diary. So it’s integral to the original vision in some measure at least. Though I still like the idea Sestren is being literally bound to their rules in some fashion, and the inference is still there in other ways.

8

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]It’s a curious idea, and there’s some implied elements that I may really want to look for, since the history repeating itself angle seems very promising to me right now. But I’d need at least some other possible corroboration before seriously trying to work multiple dragons into the Sestren-Function-Stop incident. So, as per my leader point there:

I seriously don’t think we even need to be trying to correlate these two characterizations with one another. Since (as I stressed in the other topic) dragons very clearly did not “destroy” so many of these ruins and Towers… then that was not ever the real implication. They terminated their function of that time.

Which again only serves to streamline the generalized hypothesis you’re making anyway, if I’m interpreting it right Solo?[/quote]

Okay, lets go with the idea that dragons terminated the current function of the Towers, rather than destroy them completely. We really don’t have enough to go by in either case, but I think this is potentially accurate.

In that case, it would simply be a matter of the “commanding powers” of the will of the ancients changing hands, from Sestren to the heresy dragon. If the operations were similar, the former would have executed it in the Ancient Age, and the latter at the time of the Great Fall.

I’m really just speculating here though… everything points towards the Heresy program being something that was against the will of the Ancients, not part of their balance, but it’s nice to look at alternatives.

9

:anjou_wow: Umm… hey guys… GUYS! This is like IMPORTANT! I think… maybe…

:anjou_embarassed: heh, sorry but I tried to reflect a feeling that actually came over me, as my eyes half-read that line…

“you must raise yourself higher and drive off the shadow of death.”

Okay, I need to first acknowledge that terms Solo has been using have channeled this, and I can recall other theories and discussions where something close may have been stated. There’s a chance it’s not so novel an idea to many others, and if it turns out it’s not even strictly original I will apologize in advance.

As I represented in another topic, my own preoccupation with the mutated monster issue had also shaded my viewpoint on the rundown Towers scenario. However, in this reexamining I seem to have found a different path to the same destination… since the patchwork between thriving eco-friendly mutated zones; desolate and hostile wastelands; and just plain puzzling and persistent relic holdouts… becomes another kind of evidence for the inability of the Towers to consolidate their hold on this world.

Now, setting aside all other concerns, and all other complications. Not worrying for the moment about how or why things got this way, who could have done what, or when it all went wrong. Ignoring even what the dragon might have been supposed to do, or any other personalities in play, like Azel or the Divine Visitor…

What if things are just as simple as they seem?

Sestren is obligated to “protect the continuation of the mission”, it has one totalitarian protocol for that mission, and it could never even consider any exception to that fundamental protocol. It is instructed to carry out a task, it has explicit instructions for what it’s part in the task will be, and for how it’s own instructions to it’s subordinate systems will be carried out. And if some of those instructions are routinely still not carried out… that is a fundamental exception, and it has no protocol?

The opposing bias of Craymen and the Seekers are just equal distractions, almost red herrings in a way. The real truth is this world is in artificial entropy, a long and slow death spiral, not the controlled stasis of the Ancients’ design. If things continue as they are, eventually everyone loses… Abadd’s Ancient Masters would never return, the Towers would never relinquish their hold until every last ounce of life has been exhausted and spent, and always for diminishing returns.

Something saw this world for what it had become, and perhaps it even tried to argue with the Ancients’ protocols, make them see reason, but even if it was an unstoppable force, it had met the immovable object. And so it decided it must find a way around…

So yes, this dragon, this visitor… they are not base partisan players in anyone’s scheme, at least not anymore. They are the avenging angels of truth, of life… of survival.

10

Something like that could well be the case…

The only one who would “win” would be Sestren.

11

Whether it’s true… there’s clearly no way of determining that for certain. But it has immediately become the only premise I really want to believe now. Nearly every debate about the dragon’s heresy, has been in terms of ‘changing sides’ or rebel reprogramming. Or even in the case it just went rogue on it’s own, there’s yet a characterization of subjective disagreement, as in it became a conscientious objector… or essentially just assuming some context of sympathy.

For some reason I’ve never been pulled particularly one way or another on the issue, in part I think because the entire narrative is so scrupulously noncommittal about it:

Perhaps our friend is about to lead you to the Tower.
His purpose is the extinction of all the Towers,
we do not know what we would gain from that.
Whatever the reason, the rider has time to think about it.

Lundi is not like any other Seekers, his consciousness has directly received hints of the larger picture. In this passage he is reflecting the simple truth that the dragon must do this thing, without any of the moralizing or vindictiveness we have heard form Gash or others. But also without any reservation, as though he remembers the sense of imperative, and is hoping any new rider will feel it too.

I really love the idea our dragon simply got a wake up call to an immutable fact. The Ancients’ have already forfeited their status of mastery, by their own fatal folly. Is it mutiny to steal a life boat, if the captain is determined to go down with the ship anyway?

Finally… it comes to this…
[You] hoped this would be the place…
Now, answer the question…
Why did you return here…?
Also, that human…
Our very function is protect the continuation of the mission…

Sestren is legitimately puzzled, it cannot understand how there could be any reason for it’s brother to oppose the continuation of the mission, because it is incapable of understanding the mission has already failed. This is not a circumstance of betrayal, nor is it any difference of ideology, it is simply truth opposing delusion.

Anyway, while I tend to avoid the indulgence of investment in assumptions before a certain level of substantiation, at a certain point, avoiding some kind of commitment becomes another form of indulgence. I’ve got enough to run with, I’m going to try and focus on working this all into a clear theory, or two… :anjou_happy: