Two things I just noticed

That’s okay, it is a complicated story :anjou_happy:. At the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga, the Heresy Dragon “destroys” Sestren Exsis, and the world become free from the will of the Ancients. I use the word “destroy” loosely, because it’s a little hard to tell what’s dead or not in Sestren, but I believe that Sestren (the being) was disposed of, or at least lost all of it’s power at the end of Panzer Dragoon Saga.

In Panzer Dragoon Orta, there are still monsters and even pure types that you have to fight, but they are no longer the main enemy. I think the pure types are simply carrying out what they think is the will of the Ancients, or their could be some independant ruins controlling them. Sestren the place still exists, but Sestren the being is no longer controlling it.

One of the mini games in Panzer Dragoon Orta also mentions a “central conciousness” within the Sestren network. What this is exactly, remains to be seen…

I’ll reply to your theory in a bit, Scott, once I’ve made sense of it :slight_smile:

[quote=“Scott”]
Yeah (about the panzer wing), why that stage in particular?
Also, what do you mean about the Light wing thing?[/quote]

The Panzer Wing was just an example.But Light Wing wasn’t.You need D-Units in order to become Light Wing and we know no other dragon got them before Edge’s Dragon in Saga.

So it would be quite impossible for the Sky Rider’s dragon to have been a Light Wing…

Hey Solo, thanks for arriving to clarify.

So the Empire must be the main enemy now, I take it? I heard they have new types of ships and suchlike in Orta, and a different agenda, which would make sense since they can’t do anything Tower-related now!

I was wondering what the monsters are doing now that Sestren is destroyed. I actually started trying to write a story about the subject, although it’s hard to find ideas! It’ll be probably be rubbish, but watch this space.

Thanks for the info! I’m off to catch up on the PD storyline now. dons goggles

Yes, but the main enemy can also be said to be Abadd really. Was it a coincidence that the Empire started to look for Orta after they found Abadd? Abadd of course wanted to use Orta for his own nefarious purposes and he did make Dragonmares for the Empire… and he is the last boss. Of course, the Empire does most of the trouble making in the game… so you can consider the Empire the main enemy in terms of encounters with them.

Doesn’t Orta go into Sestren, therefore it still exists? Although probably in a lesser state of control. As for the monsters (Pure Types), there’s some mutations and stuff going on with some of them and only attack if you go into their vicinity or tresspass near the ancient network of Sestren - as Orta did in Episode 6.

The ecology protrayed in Orta is interesting with all the evolution thing going on.

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]

[quote=“Scott”]
Yeah (about the panzer wing), why that stage in particular?
Also, what do you mean about the Light wing thing?[/quote]

The Panzer Wing was just an example.But Light Wing wasn’t.You need D-Units in order to become Light Wing and we know no other dragon got them before Edge’s Dragon in Saga.
So it would be quite impossible for the Sky Rider’s dragon to have been a Light Wing…[/quote]

Well, maybe the D units was just a way for the dragon to achieve a better form quicker? Maybe once the Sky Rider’s dragon reached arm wing form, it took a different route to become solo wing…
Maybe Edge’s dragon could have reached solo wing in that way to, but with the help of the baby dragon and the D units it found a way to create a more powerful version of it?

There is no other way to reach Light Wing for.That is a given since the Uru Recors say 12 d-units were scattared around the world.If Edge’s dragon got them no one else could have done it before or after it.

Now if Arm Wing would come to join the Baby Coolia it would make sense we still saw Solo Wing since the fusion isn’t physically dependent of the Light Wing form.We just need it’s lasers to access the merging crest at the Red Ruins.

I was going to post something in the other “different dragons” thread, but it seems that conversation migrated into this one. :slight_smile: Scott’s theory about the PD1 dragon going through several evolutions before it reached the Solo Wing form is just what I had in mind when I wrote that article; as Gehn says though, it doesn’t seem like it could have taken on the Light Wing form during that time due to the Light Wing existing only as data within the D Units. While its other evolutionary forms may have been the same as the ones from PDS though, they could possibly have been something else entirely; as PDZ and PDS show, there’s more than one way for a dragon to grow towards the Solo Wing form.

I actually get the impression that when Team Andromeda made Panzer Dragoon Zwei, they did indeed want us to think of Lagi as the PD1 dragon at an earlier stage in its life, when it was born and when it grew up. As I’m sure you’ve all gathered by now though, I heavily suspect that the dragon ghost / dragon crest / dragon pup sequence in PDS was intended as a clarification or confirmation that they were indeed meant to be different creatures - something that Team Andromeda may not have had in mind from the beginning, but which they may have decided upon when they fleshed out the storyline for PDS.

It’s also probably worth mentioning something that D-Unit told me a while ago (at least I’m fairly sure it was D-Unit, if it wasn’t, please let me know)! Apparently a PD fan who doesn’t post on these boards told him that, in the official (Japanese) player’s guide for Azel, it’s literally stated that the dragon pup that emerges from the dragon crest in Shelcoof is Lagi.

But of course, this is third-hand information that I haven’t been able to confirm - and if it is entirely true, “official” guides aren’t necessarily any more accurate than unofficial guides, as generally they’re still not written by the game’s creators themselves (and some “official” guides are notoriously bad). When it comes to information though, official guides often seem to get some kind of input from the game’s creators; so while this pup / lagi thing could simply have been the guide-writer’s own conclusion, it seems at least possible that it was official storyline info. (Does anyone here own the official Azel guide? It might be worth looking into this at some point…)

I’m not sure where I had that conversation, but do I remember that it was an official guide for Azel PD RPG with an orange cover. Apparently the guide states that the baby dragon was the original coolia from PD Zwei.

I think we don’t really need the guide’s confirmation on this one.This is really the one possibility.

[quote=“D-Unit”]

I’m not sure where I had that conversation, but do I remember that it was an official guide for Azel PD RPG with an orange cover. Apparently the guide states that the baby dragon was the original coolia from PD Zwei.[/quote]

So… he sealed himself in the crest inside Shelcoof and… devolved back into a baby?

Ohhh, facepalm The whole different dragons theory just made sense to me finally. Cool. So at the end of Zwei, the Heresy program sort of used Shelcoof as a conduit to get back into Sestren for a bit… “impurity acquired once more” and insert himself into the PD1 Dragon, while Lagi stayed behind in the crest in Shelcoof. That would explain why the Saga dragon doesn’t look at all like Lagi until they merge with each other.

One thing I don’t get, though. If the appearance of the dragon is so dependent on which individual dragon it is, and the PD1 dragon isn’t Lagi, then why does it look so much like him?

I could be out on a limb here, but didn’t Orta officially confirm that the four dragons are one and the same?

Smilebit confirmed that the dragon in we ride in PD Orta was the same dragon seen in the Saturn trilogy (making a triumphant return) in an interview (posted at the old forums) that has since vanished from the face of the internet.

In that interview Smilebit also confirmed that Lagi and the gold (Heresy) dragon were “different parts of the same whole”, which led to some confusion because until then we all thought that Lagi and the gold dragon were one and the same.

I’m just thinking of the ending of Panzer Dragoon Saga… Heresy says “the will of the Ancients is now with me.” That could be another way of saying “I’ve killed Sestren… now it’s my job to carry out the will of the Ancients and monitor this network.” And so, the Divine Visitor had to destroy or deactivate the Heresy Program because of this, otherwise Heresy would take Sestren’s place. At least, that’s how I interpreted the ending, although I mightn’t be entirely correct.

Indeed, that was one of my favorite things about Orta - seeing how the world had changed so much since the Great Fall. Knowing that Edge?s mission had ultimately made things better for the world in the long run.

Well if that’s how natural evolution is…beeing pink and violet … :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyways the words “The will of the Ancient is now with me” are anything but clear.I would like to know the exact words used in the Japanese version of PDS.

Unfortunately, no… I’ve got the other two unofficial guidebooks, but I haven’t seen that one floating around eBay yet (although I don’t check eBay all that often).

Slightly off topic, but that reminds me, I’ve still got to scan those other mini maps for you Lance.

Anyway, concerning the topic, I still remain convinced that Lagi was one and the same physical dragon in each of the four Panzer Dragoon games. Interview information aside, there are some loose ends that don’t quite make sense if they were different dragons in each game.

For example, Panzer Dragoon Zwei was a prequel to the original game, but why would Team Andromeda have made it a prequel if it hadn’t been made to tie up some of the loose ends in the original game. There could be several reasons for Zwei’s story being told, but the main two possibilities would be to (a) tell the story of how the mysterious Sky Rider from PD1 met his dragon or (b) to tell the story of how the dragon grew up. Panzer Dragoon Zwei is a story that shows us how the dragon started off as a little pup and grew into the majestic Blue Dragon. We know that Lundi is not the same person as the Sky Rider, so that rules that option out. Notice that in none of the other games we see the dragon being ‘born’, however in Zwei it is a major part of the storyline. I would have thought that Sestren’s memory orbs would have recorded much significant events if they had happened to the dragons in PD1 and Saga.

The Blue Dragon in PD1 is the same dragon form as at the end of Panzer Dragoon Zwei. I wonder why that would be? The main question I’m posing here is when would the Sky Rider have raised the dragon from a pup and grown it all the way into the Blue Dragon? In Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Lagi mainly grew into superior forms after he had defeated a lot of enemies… same with in Saga. Lagi grew relatively slowly before him and Lundi set off on their quest, but once the pursuit of Shelcoof had begun he grew into the Blue Dragon in under two months. So it seems to me that destroying enemies helped Lagi to grow somehow. The question is, when would the Sky Rider have had to opportunity to do that? If he had defeated hordes of Sestren?s monsters to ?level up? his dragon, surely Sestren would have recorded these events and shown them when in the memory orbs at the end of PDS. I realize that Team Andromeda obviously hadn?t already made FMVs for these events however they made additional ones showing how the Heresy program left Sestren in the first place, so I don?t see why they couldn?t have included important details like new dragons being born as well.

The dragon pup in Shelcoof could well have been Lagi?s son, which would explain how its DNA transformed the Light Wing into the Solo Wing. I know that Lance mentions in his theory that the dragon pup could have been Lagi reborn but if Lagi truly did die at the end of Panzer Dragoon Zwei, then I have to ask, how come the dragon didn?t die at the end of PD1?

Anyway, those are some of the reasons why I think they are they same dragon in each game. I haven?t said anything about Lundi?s journals or Panzer Dragoon Orta, but I?ll give my opinion on those if anyone wants to hear it?

There are many pink flowers in this world too you know :stuck_out_tongue:

I think a lot of the bright colours - and the whole Altered Genos level - were meant to represent how much the world had “improved” since before the Great Fall which was typically a dark landscape with a lot less colour and vegetation.

Well Solo who said the Blue Dragon didn’t die in the end of PD1?

I wonder if the fact that in PDO the unlockable Blue Dragon doesn’t have berserk capabilities (like in PD1) could hint at the possibility of the PD1 Blue Dragon beeing different to the PDZwei Blue Dragon…

I don’t know what believe anymore.All I know is that I writing a theory msyelf and I already rewrote parts of it 3 times…

The dragon left footprints in the sand, which suggests that he lived on. I suppose he could have gone and died after that, but wouldn’t that kind of defeat the point of the ending?

Panzer Dragoon 1 says nothing about the dragon’s birth or death. Neither does Saga. Panzer Dragoon Orta makes a reasonably big point of saying that the dragon died, but none of the other games make this clear at all. What’s so special about that dragon in particular? How come the dragon’s birth is only shown in the first Panzer Dragoon game (chronologically) and his death is only shown in the last Panzer Dragoon game (Orta)?

Hmm… I’d say it was definitely trying to emulate the dragon from Panzer Dragoon 1, but I don’t think we should take bonus material like that too seriously. The Panzer Wing couldn’t even morph, yet it most certainly could in Panzer Dragoon Saga.

It’s a confusing subject to be sure…

Lance’s theory makes a lot of sense, and he’s probably right about the dragons not being the same one throughout the games. Lance, I do have one question though: why would the Heresy program enter another Coolia after PD Zwei if Lagi was still “available” in the Shelcoof crest? In PD Saga, the crest in the beginning of the game hints to the fact that the PD 1 dragon hibernated there, similar to the way Lagi hibernated in Shelcoof, which would mean that the PD 1 dragon is also the dragon in Saga. So why wouldn’t the Heresy program use the original Lagi to reappear in PD 1?

Another possibility that I’ve considered is that the Blue Dragon is actually the original Solowing that was always meant to be the host for the Heresy program. I always assumed the Dark Dragon didn’t go through any evolution, but was always in its D-Type 02 form, so that makes me believe there was a Solowing dragon ready for the Heresy program too. The escape from Sestren may have forced the Heresy program to choose a Coolia as a host, but perhaps it managed to find its way to its original body when it was stored into the Shelcoof crest in Zwei together with Lagi.

One thing is for sure the physically differnet dragons AREN’T the same.Ther are surely different dragons.Different bodies.The only real doubt is between the one in PD1 and PDZ…

Solo : I didn’t take the pandora’s box too seriously but I first saw it as a confirmation that that dragon couldn’t really go berserk.But this is just me brainstorming.I woulnd never base anything upon this.